Winding Out of Windage While Bore Sighting

[Gwion]

It's a Howa action.

I was thinking that the bore may be offline, especially seeing the barrel has just been changed.

Although, i would have expected the gunsmith to take his concentricity off the bore and action centerlines.

This is really starting to worry me and i wish there was a simple explanation. If it's the barrel or the scope, i'm cactus and back to square one. Took 6 weeks to get the scope back. I don't have much spare cash flow and have just spent about $1800 on this project with scope, mounting system and rebarrel.....
I can't keep throwing money at it to fix it.

Not sure how i would correct the misalignment of bore to action centerline!??!

[Gwion]

Try a different scope and see if the problem still exists so then rule out the scope. If it's not the scope then picatinny rail not straight maybe and I suppose you have swapped the rings from front to back so that may show the rings are okay.

I haven't swapped the rings yet.

Maybe i'll try that and then refit the DNZ mount and Vortex scope that were on it when in 223rem. The old scope/mount system worked perfectly, so if that is still good it will rule out the bore alignment as being an issue.

I don't have spare rings to test the Vortex on the rail. Old scope 25mm tube, new on 30mm tube.

[Apollo]

I just had a look at a Howa 1500 that is here, belongs to a Forum member.

Stepped action like a Remington 700 where the rear is lower than the front. Not sure at this stage if it's flat or curved on top. Will have to check later as I'm just heading off to get some supplies. This one has a DMZ one piece base and rings, Vortex Scope. I haven't even checked to see where the scope is set as it all got put away waiting for the owner to return from overseas.

If the gunsmith was asked to true the action then yes it should / would have been checked. The barrel when chambered would be straight and true but is it true to the action centre. The job a gunsmith does here is to true the face of the action so that the alignment is correct when the barrel is tightened up. Some can be a few thou out of true square across the face and this accounts for a lot aiming down range.

It is possibly something you can check but quickly the first thing that comes to mind is to use a "straight edge" sitting along the line of the screws in the top of the action and look down on the alignment with the barrel to see if they are both pointing the same direction. If it is out then just maybe it's something you may be able to correct without a visit to the gunsmith. The thinking here is to have the rail mounting screws loose and see if the alignment can be corrected, then bed the rail to the action with the correct alignment. When epoxy is set then tighten the rail mounting screws. Might be a bit fiddly to get correct but saves on a visit to the doctor.

Just a quick thought.

After thought. Just maybe the mounting holes in the Talley aren't in alignment correctly and something that can be checked.

[Gwion]

Thanks Apollo. I'll check these things out.

I did ask that the action was trued so would expect that was all good.

I'll start by checking the rail/barrel alignment. I'll put the cleaning rod in the barrel to get an idea of where the bore is pointing and align a straight edge to the rail. IF that is out of whack, i'll take the rail off, put the screws in the holes and put the straight edge on them. Hopefully this tells me if its the holes in the action or a fault with the rail.

Cheers.

[Gwion]

Well.. straight edges didn't tell me much.

I remembered i have cheapo rings that i use to mount torches to rails, so have pinched a pair of those and did a rush job of mounting the Vortex Diamondback scope. Bore sighted on same object, same distance. Vortex was about 5MOA off for windage from the old zero, which was very close to mechanical zero. Considering the dodgy cheapo quick release mounts from ebay and the quickly mounted scope still giving me a better result, i am thinking it is either the rings or the scope that is to blame.

Now to do some testing there to see if i can sort it out.

[Apollo]

Rifle clamped in Gun Cleaning Vice. Verticle surface like a door frame aligned in the bore then see where the straight edge points perhaps.

Hope you solve it soon. Things like this can be a real pain.

Reminds me of getting scope reticles perfectly aligned both verticle and horizontal. A lot easier these days with the right equipment and essential for precision shooting.

[Gwion]

Well.

I'm a lot happier now. Swapped the Talley rings front to back, as per earlier suggestion, and now it is bore sighted at mechanical zero!

Probably should have done that first off and can't figure out how it is so much different.

I had lapped the rings when i first set the scope up before the barrel was changed. They must have been swapped from back to front during the whole work process and i believe lapped rings MUST stay in the same configuration after lapping.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with the outcome or over think it.
I'm just very happy that it all seems to be rectified.

Thanks for the advice and ideas for trouble shooting. Kept me a little bit sane during my mild panic!
Now i can confidently go about the whole load development process.

Thanks again to all.

[Apollo]

Great news, I might celebrate with you and have an early ale.

I had thought about the lapping of the rings, hence the suggestion to swap them around. I would very carefully check the lapping..ie cover all the surface with a texta and make sure the surface is still true. I wonder how much material was removed during lapping. The one's I have done (Kelbly and Ken Farrell) were not even worth doing as the finish wasn't hardly marked but all very even. Well, they are very high quality rings on the same quality pic rails.

Once the check has been done I would as a final task mark each ring section with an alignment mark so they don't get mixed up again...ie one center punch mark on one side at the front and then say two marks on the rear on the same side. The rings I use above are marked during manufacture as matching sets.

Boy, I bet you are happy.

Now you can go enjoy shooting the bloody thing.

The Howa 1500 .223R here is the first I have ever seen or handled and I must say I'm impressed with the accuracy from the hand loads I developed for it. The story of that build is a topic here somewhere.

[Gwion]

Yes mate. Very happy, thanks. I will mark the rings as suggested; i actually told myself to do that when i lapped them and then forgot to!

To be honest, i was very disappointed with the Talley rings. I know they have a good rep, but mine needed quite a bit of lapping to get an even contact surface. I would just have sent them back instead of lapping but as i ordered them online from the States, it makes it a long process. It was quicker to lap them.

Unfortunately the LGS's around here aren't loaded with quality gear and much of what there is has the "Tas Tax" attached. It's often just easier, cheaper and more reliable to order stuff online and put up with the odd inconvenience; especially since it is an hour to the nearest gun shop and i don't go into town all that often so have to make a special trip which adds a lot to the cost of components.

The Howas are a good thing. I'm glad i rebarrelled it instead of forking out for a whole new rifle. In it's 1:12 223rem incarnation, i managed to get it shooting under 0.5moa quite reliably with some attention to loads. Considering i'm far from a great shooter, i think that's pretty bloody good for a cheap rifle. Hope it goes just as well as a 7mm-08.

Cheers again for the help.

[Chronos]

Glad it's sorted Gwion

I've been guilty of marking lapped rings do I know which way they go back on. The sports match rings on my Weatgerby Mkxxii are lapped, couldn't believe how much material needed to be removed from them.



Steve

[Gwion]

I might engrave an F & B across the base and cap of the rings. Anyway, it's not going far in a hurry. After all that, i'm leaving well enough alone for a while. If and when i take the scope out of the rings again, i'll mark them so they don't get mixed up.

Surprisingly, that pic of yours is nothing compared to how out of whack mine were. Oh well... all is good now. Ready to develop some loads and maybe i'll keep up with the other guys at the range a bit better. 50gn 223rem don't really match it at 500+ yards against the 308!

[Strikey]

Well, I am glad we got that sorted but will you have to wait for the snow to thaw before you can throw some lead downrange?

[Gwion]

Snow's all gone....

Need more bullets, powder and primers to start developing loads. I have exactly 12 rounds left ATM.

[brett1868]

:)
Snow's all gone....

Need more bullets, powder and primers to start developing loads. I have exactly 12 rounds left ATM.

If the Zombie apocalypse comes tonight you're we'll and truly in trouble mate

Excellent you got it sorted and thank you for letting us know the solution, it adds valuable knowledge to the forum.

[Gwion]

The Zombie Apocalypse! That's what an ax, a large knife and a bad attitude are good for.

If the marauders turn up, though, i'm screwed. 12 rounds and i haven't even sighted it in after sorting the problem!

Looking at buying a few hundred A-max. I'm lead to believe they are a very effective cross over round for target and hunting.

[brett1868]

The Hornady AMAX is a very good projectile, many an insurgent has been dispatched by the 750Gr 50 Cal AMAX. I keep a couple hundred in stock as I bought big before the price went up a month or so back. Been using the 30cal 208Gr AMAX in my 300 Weatherby with good results though not as good as 185gr Berger VLD hunting. I was a big fan of Sierra projectiles and still am for smaller calibre's but 30cal and up I'm getting excellent results with Berger so maybe check them out as well.

[Gwion]

I'll check out the VLD.
Also looking at those Nosler Accubond Long Range, but can't find a heap of feed back on them. The claimed BC are right up there and the 150gn jobbies look like a good thing for medium game.

At the moment, i'll just focus n the Amax 162gn and see if i can't get a good load working for club f-class, which should start up in Sept.

[Bark]

Great news, I might celebrate with you and have an early ale.

Any excuse will do