Scope Reviews & Box Tests

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Scope Reviews & Box Tests

Post by Gwion » 12 Sep 2016, 1:57 pm

Hi all.

We seem to have the usual questions popping up regarding "what's scope XXYY like???". Well, how about we post up some reviews with real world info of the scopes we own.

I'll start with my scopes by reviewing one of my Vortex scopes.
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Re: Scope Reviews & Box Tests

Post by scaredyet » 12 Sep 2016, 2:20 pm

Good idea. Maybe a spreadsheet of some sort. Price, rating, which firearm it's used for. I am after a scope for my .22 plinking, range up to 100m max
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Re: Scope Reviews & Box Tests

Post by Mongrel » 12 Sep 2016, 2:30 pm

Great Idea Gwion :)
Spread sheet may not work on forum platform, but im sure someone here will work something out
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Re: Scope Reviews & Box Tests

Post by scaredyet » 12 Sep 2016, 2:51 pm

If it's a Google spreadsheet that can be edited by anyone and link it here
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Re: Scope Reviews & Box Tests

Post by Gwion » 12 Sep 2016, 2:54 pm

Vortex Diamondback 4-12 x 40 Adjustable Objective: bought Feb 2014 $350 approx. price. Current RRP around $500 Sept 2016.

set up t-bolt.jpg
set up t-bolt.jpg (417.68 KiB) Viewed 4860 times

This scope has been mounted to my t-bolt since about Feb/March 2014, so I have had some time to get to know it and can honestly say i don't have too many complaints. If i had my time again and enough cash, i would probably go for a side focus rather than an adjustable objective because adjusting in the field, especially with a rifle mounted light, is just a pain in the butt. Other than that, it has proven to be a good reliable scope for my .22lr.

It arrives well packed in it's box with lens covers and a cleaning cloth as well as a pamphlet explaining the 'Deadhold BDC' reticle, if you choose that option.

turrets.jpg
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The turrets are as they appear above. When you adjust it, the 'clicks' are there but could honestly be a tad more definite. If you don't rush your adjustment, they are definitely clear enough to count by feel. This is actually the 2nd Vortex Diamondback I own. The other is a 3-9 X 40 on my 223rem and I found it to be a decent scope, so i bought one suitable for rimfire with an adjustable parallax setting. The 3-9 x 40 shot ok out to 600 yards which speaks well to clarity, etc, however, after using it for longer range work and making a lot of extreme adjustments for elevation and windage, i found it wasn't returning to my set zero and was needing to be resighted. This brought me to try a box test on the AO model, which has had far more moderate work and hasn't been pushed to the extent of it's adjustment over and again. More on this below.

clarity.jpg
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It is difficult to get a good pic, focusing one handed with a DSLR through a scope while you hold the rifle but hopefully you can see that the detail in the tree shows some decent clarity. The scope is on 4x and the tree in the foreground is probably 30m and paralax set to infinity (camera not well focused, sorry: will try again and edit pick soon) or so from where i was positioned. All in all, i have found clarity to be no issue under any light conditions, and i regularly use both scopes under light. Combined with my Olight M3X LED torch, i can identify targets out to 200 odd meters or a touch further but any more than this and it is just outlines. Not sure if a better scope would pick out detail at that range more accurately but that is well and truly adequate for the ranges i am comfortable shooting at night.

mag & rounds.jpg
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So, on to this box test.
The pic above and the top pic of the less than ideal shooting rest is as somewhat of a disclaimer. The rounds used are cheap arsed Fed Champion hollow points that have been put through a Waltz die (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6690) to uniform length, diameter and hollow point. This makes them quite consistent but once i go and put the cuts in the face they sort of lose a bit again. I do this because i find it make them kill very effectively on the small game/pest species i use them for. FOr best results on this box test, i should really have used the rifles most preferred fodder which is capable of 5 rounds into 0.4" @ 50m but i am down to my last box of the Velocitors and have hundreds of the Fed left. I may repeat the test when i restock with Velocitors and edit this post.

box test target.jpg
box test target.jpg (445.2 KiB) Viewed 4860 times

For those unfamiliar with a box test, it is used to determine how repeatable and reliable the adjustments on a scope are. The random shots with an X through them were me making to large an adjustment for my set parameters (was totalling 16moa left to right, up and down) and that combined with me rushing and not counting properly gave some very wild results, so i re-zeroed and started again with smaller increments.

The method i followed was this:

Zero - 3 shots at center bull
Adjust 4moa Up & 4moa Left, 3 shots
Adjust 8moa Down, 3 shots
Adjust 8moa Right, 3shots
Adjust 8moa Up, 3 shots
Return to established zero from data, 4 shots

Results as above seem to show some variation in adjustments as i went around the 4 corners but then returned right back to where i started and actually shot the best group of the test with 4 rounds into one hole. My some what dodgy set up may have influenced the test and i must have settled in by the last group. This was only at 25m but i will repeat the test with Velocitors at 50m off my shooting bench in the paddock when i can find the time on a nice calm day.

If there is anything else you would like to know about this scope, just ask below.
More reviews of my other scopes, following the same format will be loaded in due course.
1/ Cheapo $70 scope on my wife's 22lr which is quite impressive for the dollars
2/ The other Vortex Diamond back... i'll be interested to see how it's box test goes after issues shooting 600yd at the range.
3/ Sightron S-tac 2.5-17.5 X 56 on my 7-08 heavy barrel Howa.
Last edited by Gwion on 13 Sep 2016, 10:41 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Scope Reviews & Box Tests

Post by Gwion » 12 Sep 2016, 3:00 pm

If anyone wants to find a better format to run this thread, go right ahead.

I was thinking it could just be a bunch of reviews that people can read through to compare different scopes rather than "i reckon this is better than that because this is what i own".

I'd be interested to see direct comparisons to determine future choices when purchasing.
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Re: Scope Reviews & Box Tests

Post by HulkFury » 12 Sep 2016, 6:15 pm

I have used this website a fair bit in the past when comparing cameras. The thing I liked was they had a specific setup for taking photos for quality comparisons.
https://m.dpreview.com/articles/2601653565/studio-test-scene
What would be good is a similar database showing the scope's view at a target (something with different ways of checking clarity) at different distances/zooms.
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Re: Scope Reviews & Box Tests

Post by Chronos » 13 Sep 2016, 9:23 am

Try this, easily printed at home

http://www.gpsinformation.org/jack/phot ... -rag-a.jpg

Image

Good idea, we'd need to use fairly standard ranges for rimfire and centerfire rifles to make decent comparisons

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Re: Scope Reviews & Box Tests

Post by Gwion » 13 Sep 2016, 9:38 am

Chronos, that target is hurting my eyes!!! :lol:
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Re: Scope Reviews & Box Tests

Post by bladeracer » 13 Sep 2016, 10:18 am

Chronos wrote:Try this, easily printed at home

http://www.gpsinformation.org/jack/phot ... -rag-a.jpg

Image

Good idea, we'd need to use fairly standard ranges for rimfire and centerfire rifles to make decent comparisons

Chronos



I thought that was a target!

Would be useful to have that permanently stuck to the target board for zeroing.

I noticed on Sunday that the Redfield Revolution I've got on my American Rimfire has a blur area in the centre when trying to focus down to 20 yards, the donut around the centre focuses beautifully but not the middle. I was finding the target in the edge and then moving the blurred centre over it for each shot.The reticle is clear, just the target is blurred. I already sent it back when I got it because I couldn't zero it. The turrets wouldn't move the reticle to where my shots were falling. They returned it with a card stating they "found nothing wrong with it" but they had obviously lubricated the turrets as they were incredibly difficult to turn when I first received it. I got it to zero just fine after they fixed it but the turrets still seemed pretty random. I've got another AR Optics 4.5-18x40 I'll put on it but I'll endeavour to shoot a box test first with the Redfield. Too windy today though.
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Re: Scope Reviews & Box Tests

Post by bladeracer » 13 Sep 2016, 8:47 pm

We buried my father-in-law yesterday so I decided to sit out in his paddock and shoot some paper this arvo, despite the marginal weather, so much more relaxing than the service.

The Redfield Revolution 3-9x40 scope came on my RAR 7mm-08 - for which it is entirely unsuitable - I've seen the scope listed at $339(!) currently. I bought the rifle for $529 new with the scope, so I could throw the scope in the bin and still be more than happy (RAR 7mm-08 at $735 currently without scope). The scope came mounted on two-piece weaver bases (also unsuitable for 7mm-08) with the reticle 30-degrees off plumb. After fixing that I had major problems even getting it onto paper. I swapped in a one-piece Weaver base and 4.5-18x40 Bushnell AR (which zeroed easily) and put the Redfield on my RAR Rimfire to test it out. The turrets were also incredibly difficult to turn. The following is copied from the email I sent to the LGS I bought from.

"The groups are tight and consistent so there doesn’t appear to be anything loose in the scope or mounts. Giving both turrets one full turn (15MoA) in each direction moves the group about 15MoA sideways and vertically, another full turn (30MoA - full travel) moves it 30MoA. Turning them back returns point of aim to the same spot, so the screws appear to be good. I also swapped the rings front to rear and reversed them to combat any error in the rings but it made no difference so they appear to be fine also. I even turned the scope upside down as a last resort with no improvement. With both turrets topped out in adjustment I can get the bullets grouping about 75mm low and 40mm left at 50 meters with no adjustment remaining, so my guess is the scope has been assembled with the reticle not centred. If it were not a brand new scope I could certainly shim the mounts to make it workable on a .22, but a new scope should not require this."

Seven weeks after purchase I received the scope back with a card stating there was nothing wrong with it, but the turrets were much smoother and lighter, and it zeroed just fine.

The Redfield Revolution does not have field adjustable turrets so the box test is somewhat pointless, you zero this, put the caps on the turrets and forget about further adjustment. I don't consider the turret clicks to be audible and they're not distinct enough to adjust by feel without some acute concentration. To adjust them by eye you need to be looking from directly above the turret to see the grooved zero ring around the turret base. Focus is a lockring on the eyepiece, again not something you'd be doing in the field.

Because I've been wanting to run some Eley Match through the RAR Rimfire to see how well it goes I thought I'd combine it with the scope test. I shot a couple groups to confirm zero then put five rounds on the centre target. My second group dropped the first two shots near where I wanted them, then the next three 90mm past where I wanted them. I then dragged the reticle across to the other side and they were pretty close, so clearly the reticle sticks sometimes. The groups were excellent - around 24mm for five - but I gave that up and shot it with the much cheaper Remington Cyclones instead.

I used a simple downloadable five-target page with targets 50mm each side and 60mm above and below the centre target. I prefer to range in meters but as so many ranges and competitions still shoot yards I've been trying to work in yards for familiarity, so I shot this at 50 yards off a bench. Reticle adjustment is 1/4-minute clicks - roughly 3.3mm per click at 50 yards. Turrets are not zeroable and there are no datum marks so I noted that the elevation and windage were set with "5.5" and "6.5" clicks toward 12-o'clock on the turrets. They claim that the zero is resettable but this means you use something pointy to turn an additional ring around the bottom of the turret until a groove aligns with the "0" of the turret. It'll probably help you confirm your turrets haven't moved (despite having caps) but it's not something you can easily use for field adjustment to return windage or elevation to zero.

Again I shot a couple groups to confirm zero with the Cyclones, then put five rounds on the centre target. Adjusted up 18 clicks and left 15 clicks, shot a group, adjusted down 36 clicks, shot a group, adjusted right 30 clicks, shot a group, adjusted up 36 clicks, shot a group, adjusted left 15 clicks and down 18 clicks and shot a second group hopefully back on the centre target. I also confirmed the turrets had returned to their "5.5" and "6.5" marks.

I pulled my second shot but the first group was only a couple mm low and left of point-of-aim on the centre target. Ideally each group would place similarly on its respective target.
The second group to the Northwest was perfect windage but about 20-25mm lower than it should've been, and it strung each shot lower - possibly indicating the reticle wasn't settled.
I put a third group at 18 clicks down to see if the reticle would settle before putting them on the next target. This group was just about spot on windage and elevation.
The fourth group to the Southwest was pretty perfectly placed slightly low left.
The fifth group to the Southeast opened up a bit but was essentially spot on.
The sixth group to the Northeast was good windage-wise but about 20mm low, similar to the Northwest group. Possibly nearing the edge of upward adjustment?
The final group was just about perfectly dropped over the first group.

Overall I'm pretty happy with that, but really, a $60 scope can do just as well. The glass is better than the cheap scopes I've got but not as clear as the AR Optics'. The simple Plex reticle is fine and clean but I would've liked a couple of MIL check marks for hold-over to make up for not being able to dial in elevation. As there is only an eyepiece focus I haven't found any way of getting the reticle and the target in focus together, just one or the other. As long as adjustments remain near the middle of their adjustment range the clicks seem to be accurate, but they seem to tighten up as you near the extremes. I consider it to be an adequate rimfire scope, except it doesn't focus in to very close ranges. I was hoping to print that focus target to see just how close I could focus it but didn't manage it today.

I consider that I basically paid nothing for it and it is worth that, but I wouldn't recommend it to anybody, especially not at the exorbitant price.
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Re: Scope Reviews & Box Tests

Post by Gwion » 14 Sep 2016, 7:27 am

Sorry to hear about your loss, Bladeracer.

Thanks for that post. I have often heard people talk up the Redfields due to their association with Leupold. It's good to get a practical report of their performance.

When you finally got it zeroed, did it hold ok or did you get some issue with wandering zero?

I should add that both my Vortex Diamondbacks have held zero very well if used as a 'set & forget' scope. The reason i did the box test was less for elevation adjustments in the field but more because i swap and change ammo a bit and need a few different zero settings. I wanted to know if i couldjust dial a known zero for a given ammo and forget about it. From the results above, before going out into the field, i will be shooting at least 10 rounds while re-zeroing for different ammo to be sure the ammo and scope have settled in.
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Re: Scope Reviews & Box Tests

Post by bladeracer » 14 Sep 2016, 9:01 am

Gwion wrote:Sorry to hear about your loss, Bladeracer.

Thanks for that post. I have often heard people talk up the Redfields due to their association with Leupold. It's good to get a practical report of their performance.

When you finally got it zeroed, did it hold ok or did you get some issue with wandering zero?

I should add that both my Vortex Diamondbacks have held zero very well if used as a 'set & forget' scope. The reason i did the box test was less for elevation adjustments in the field but more because i swap and change ammo a bit and need a few different zero settings. I wanted to know if i could just dial a known zero for a given ammo and forget about it. From the results above, before going out into the field, i will be shooting at least 10 rounds while re-zeroing for different ammo to be sure the ammo and scope have settled in.



Bob was the most amazing bloke I ever knew, a real loss to the community here.

I have no complaints about the Redfield holding zero as the groups I've shot with it are excellent. I keep a shot log for each of my firearms but I don't generally record which scope I'm using. I only fired seven rounds of 7mm-08 with it and they grouped beautifully, even with some adjustments when trying to zero it, but about 500mm from point-of-aim at 100 yards. Since then I've only used it for .22LR, about 300 rounds as near as I can tell. The potential for the reticle to jump does exist but I think it reduces with every shot fired after an adjustment. Once it's zeroed though I'm confident it'll stay on target.

I've fed the RAR 23 different types now, and so far Eley Match is the most accurate in it and in my BSA Sportsman Five. I've only tried 19 types in the BSA so far and the Remington Cyclone shoots almost as good as the Eley Match, but at a much better price. When I'm testing ammo though I just shoot groups and don't bother with scope adjustments until I decide to zero a load.

I doubt all Redfield Revolutions are as poor as mine, but even if mine were perfect, other than slightly better glass it doesn't give me anything that a sub-$100 Chinese scope doesn't do just as well, or better. I see Vortex scopes on RAR packages, but I hate capped turrets almost as much as I hate turrets that require a coin to adjust them. I want to have the same scope on all my rifles where possible, and for me, the Bushnell AR Optics 4.5-18x40 ticks all the boxes I need, and for under $300 - I have three of them now. The only thing I'd like to add to them would be dead-stop zeroing turrets.
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Re: Scope Reviews & Box Tests

Post by dpskipper » 19 Sep 2016, 6:52 pm

Gwion wrote:If anyone wants to find a better format to run this thread, go right ahead.

I was thinking it could just be a bunch of reviews that people can read through to compare different scopes rather than "i reckon this is better than that because this is what i own".


One idea would be to have a constantly updating speadsheet with links to a html page for each user submitted review. The review is just text and images that is sent to a mod who hosts it on the site. Eg enoughgun.com.au/leupold_mark_ar_review.html

Anybody can view the review and it lessens the clutter of the forum.

Keen to see other ideas.
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