Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

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Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by fenderstrat » 06 Oct 2016, 11:54 am

So I have a few military rifles (3, and getting another one soon), and I've read and been told that the military used to zero them to about 300m/y, depending on which country/model/etc, for use in battle, which is fine and understandable, the point being that you should be aiming at centre mass and be able to hit an enemy soldier from short range all the way to 300m. Makes sense :thumbsup:

The question is: If the rifles are zeroed at 300, why even have a 100m marking on the rear sight? and if I move the sight to say, the 200m mark, will the rifle shoot at 400m? Why not just have the 1st setting on your rear sight at 300, and go from then? Been thinking about this for a long while now and I cant really find a good answer for it, so please help guys?
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by scotty87 » 06 Oct 2016, 12:09 pm

If you've got access to a range with metallic silhouette targets at 300-500m you could see how the sights track with adjustments.
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by Noisydad » 06 Oct 2016, 2:32 pm

Good question! Even my 145 year old .50-70 Swedish rolling block has a 100 m mark on the sights but at that setting it shoots dead on at 200. The 1400 m setting is pure wishful thinking!
There's still a few of Wile. E Coyote's ideas that I haven't tried yet.
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by Supaduke » 06 Oct 2016, 3:55 pm

I put taller front sights on my no4 savage and m98 Mauser milsurps for that very reason. Both shot stupidly high at 50m and 100m. Taller front sight cured that and now both are zeroed at 100m. My M38 Swedish Mauser never had the issue (although I have read that many do) and was bang on from the day I got it.
I think ammo of the day may have been a bit slower and not as flat shooting, so perhaps they didn't shoot as high when they were actually designed and constructed.
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by bladeracer » 06 Oct 2016, 4:27 pm

Supaduke wrote:I put taller front sights on my no4 savage and m98 Mauser milsurps for that very reason. Both shot stupidly high at 50m and 100m. Taller front sight cured that and now both are zeroed at 100m. My M38 Swedish Mauser never had the issue (although I have read that many do) and was bang on from the day I got it.
I think ammo of the day may have been a bit slower and not as flat shooting, so perhaps they didn't shoot as high when they were actually designed and constructed.



Similar experience as you, No4 Rifle and M1904/39 Mauser both shoot very high, The M38 was spot on - all with military loads.
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by Title_II » 17 Dec 2016, 1:08 pm

This is probably too little and way too late, but here is the scoop on MODERN firearms. It is true we like them to shoot point blank over hundreds of yards. But two things happen when the action gets in close. One is that you tend to shoot at targets using cover or concealment, and elevation becomes more critical. Second is things move faster, so often the close range sight is larger. Even though the smart people actually aim OVER the rear sight once it gets under 50 yards, unless making that shot where elevation is critical (head poking up from cover). In practice people tend to use the default zero, flat shooting setting as they are taught hold over and under. And it is faster to adjust fire than to play around with sights and work on two different systems. But everything has largely gone to optics now.
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by happyhunter » 17 Dec 2016, 10:23 pm

Noisydad wrote:Good question! The 1400 m setting is pure wishful thinking!


Maybe for shooting a volley at a distant advancing enemy?
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by GLS_1956 » 18 Dec 2016, 1:01 am

You made me go and dig the M-1 Garand out of the safe too double check what I remember my father telling me. So yes there are markings for 100 yards out to 1200 yards, but Dad said that they would carry the rifle with the sights set at 300 yard setting just as you said for battle sight purposes, aim at the center of mass and you're likely to hit your target. But if you knew the range to your target you would adjust accordingly

You ask if the battle sight was set at 300 yards why even have a 100 or 200 yard setting or for that matter settings beyond 300 yards. As my father explained it to me, he was a WWII veteran serving in the US Army in the Pacific Theater of Operations, so he had a very short stop in your country, somewhere around Darwin before going to New Guinea and on to the Philippines. The US Army had the policy of issuing new equipment to soldiers when they were being sent from staging area to combat zones. Since this meant they also got brand new rifles, they had to sight in those rifles and not all areas had sufficient areas to put a rifle range out past 200 yards. So since the rear sight of the M-1 Garand was set up with ballistic, or drop compensating, markings, in theory a rifle sighted in at 100 yards and having that adjustment locked in, by the serviceman simply turning the drum to the desired setting he would be "In the ballpark".
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by Lorgar » 17 Feb 2017, 1:04 pm

happyhunter wrote:
Noisydad wrote:Good question! The 1400 m setting is pure wishful thinking!


Maybe for shooting a volley at a distant advancing enemy?


Or low flying aircraft? Seems like that's the angle you'd be pointing at :lol:
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by Noisydad » 17 Feb 2017, 2:29 pm

Lorgar wrote:
happyhunter wrote:
Noisydad wrote:Good question! The 1400 m setting is pure wishful thinking!


Maybe for shooting a volley at a distant advancing enemy?


Or low flying aircraft? Seems like that's the angle you'd be pointing at :lol:

Lol I have hit our clubs 600 yard buffalo gong with my .50-70 by aiming at the top of the hill behind it. I'll measure the hold over (it'll be in tens of metres) when I'm there next.
There's still a few of Wile. E Coyote's ideas that I haven't tried yet.
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 17 Feb 2017, 5:34 pm

Noisydad wrote:Good question! Even my 145 year old .50-70 Swedish rolling block has a 100 m mark on the sights but at that setting it shoots dead on at 200. The 1400 m setting is pure wishful thinking!


1400m? pffffftttt
Image

2000m for the proper metricesed Germans...yards for the Imperialists...

My MLE, I believe had a proper Volley sight, IIRC theyre marked to 2400yds????

Adler.. bwahahahaha, just dont let the tards catch on to this long range death machine gun weapon rifle tech......
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by Noisydad » 17 Feb 2017, 7:17 pm

The .50-70 was never renown for its long range ability due to its rainbow like trajectory. To hit the 600 yard gong was frankly, a minor miracle. I think the bullet didn't so much hit the gong as land on it!
Still, with barrel mounted iron sights it surely made my day!
There's still a few of Wile. E Coyote's ideas that I haven't tried yet.
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by VICHunter » 24 Feb 2017, 12:36 pm

Maybe adding a catapult type motion to the rifle as you pull the trigger will give it a big more bang at 600y :lol:
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by Gamerancher » 24 Feb 2017, 7:38 pm

Noisydad states that he had to aim at the top of the hill behind a 600yd gong to hit it should make people realize that Billy Dixons "miracle" 1538yd shot with the "Big Fifty" to hit an indian out of a bunch mounted on horses was just the fluke that HE always said it was. In his own words, "it was a scratch shot.." If you have never heard of this event, look up Billy Dixon, Battle of Adobe Walls.
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by RoginaJack » 24 Feb 2017, 8:22 pm

Time has passed and the memory fades but I remember the drill sergeant explains to adopt a "6 O'clock" hold for the 303. When we were shooting at a round watermelon type target to sit the melon on top of the sight picture, worked for me..
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by Carter » 01 Mar 2017, 12:29 pm

Memory fuzz... '6 oclock hold' is holding the bottom of the scope over the target where the 6 would be on a face, yes?
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by Supaduke » 01 Mar 2017, 12:54 pm

If you hold your thumb out fonzie style, representing your front sight blade, then your target would sit on top of your thumb......if that makes sense
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 01 Mar 2017, 7:43 pm

Even though the OP didnt return after his query.... maybe you rude fellas scared the young man away..... anyhoo, if anyone is wondering;

For a standard factory FMJ out the end of an Enfield;
Image

So you can see, a 300yd zero is a 6" - 6oclock hold at 100yds.... etc
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by Gwion » 02 Mar 2017, 6:24 am

Supaduke wrote:If you hold your thumb out fonzie style, representing your front sight blade, then your target would sit on top of your thumb......if that makes sense


Some 18yo just read that & got very confused, thinking " what the hell is a fonzie? "!!! :lol:
Last edited by Gwion on 02 Mar 2017, 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by Gamerancher » 02 Mar 2017, 8:22 am

Yep, the other one is talking feet and inches to them, you just get a puzzled look.
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Re: Military Iron Sights and Zero HELP!

Post by RoginaJack » 02 Mar 2017, 2:51 pm

Nah, no scopes involved. Line up normal sight picture with iron sights and sit.....see the Fonzie explanation above. Good as any. :clap:
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