Not Enough scope travel

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Not Enough scope travel

Post by AndyZ » 18 Sep 2017, 5:41 pm

I am fairly new to shooting so not 100% up with how all of the physics works. I recently bought a Howa 1500 in 6.5 CM and put an Athlon Argos BTR 8-34x56 scope on top. I took it out to the range to zero. I have managed (with some difficulty) to zero at 100m ( I have plans to eventually zero this rifle at 200). The problem I have is that to get this zero I have had to wind the elevation turret all the way to the highest zero stop. I have 13 Mill of elevation travel to the bottom stop but it is all in a downward direction. Someone suggested a 20moa rail would work. Ideally I would like the 100m zero to be a few clicks for the bottom stop to allow me slight adjustments for closer shots but have all of the travel available so that I can get out to 550-1000m. Any one have any other ideas
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by bladeracer » 18 Sep 2017, 6:11 pm

AndyZ wrote:I am fairly new to shooting so not 100% up with how all of the physics works. I recently bought a Howa 1500 in 6.5 CM and put an Athlon Argos BTR 8-34x56 scope on top. I took it out to the range to zero. I have managed (with some difficulty) to zero at 100m ( I have plans to eventually zero this rifle at 200). The problem I have is that to get this zero I have had to wind the elevation turret all the way to the highest zero stop. I have 13 Mill of elevation travel to the bottom stop but it is all in a downward direction. Someone suggested a 20moa rail would work. Ideally I would like the 100m zero to be a few clicks for the bottom stop to allow me slight adjustments for closer shots but have all of the travel available so that I can get out to 550-1000m. Any one have any other ideas


Does it already have a 20MoA rail on backwards perhaps?
Try turning the scope upside down and see if it still zeros at the top of the turret.
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by Oaker260 » 18 Sep 2017, 6:22 pm

What rings are you using? Is there a rail already on the rifle?
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by Apollo » 18 Sep 2017, 6:37 pm

Something is very wrong in my opinion.

No idea what a "Athlon Argos BTR" is but for 100m with a scope at "Optical Center" you should have been able to look through the Bore and see a target, say the size of a Beer Carton and then look through the scope and see the same. It then should take just a couple of shots with little adjustment to get a 100m center POI.

To make things easier to see what is going on, I would set a target at 50m. Look through the bore and center the target, then look through the scope and see where the scope is set. Before all this, center the scope for both windage and elevation. Don't try and zero it at 50m, it's a waste of time.
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by AndyZ » 18 Sep 2017, 7:18 pm

Got a zero rail on at the moment. Which should leave me about 5-6 mill of adjustment if zero at 100 with a 20moa rail. This should get me 5-600mm but not much further if my math is correct.
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by Oaker260 » 18 Sep 2017, 7:38 pm

I have one on mine .260 rem with 25ish moa with the burris xtr rings. Gives me the full 13 mil up. Should allow me to get 1000m with a mil or 2 left.
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by Apollo » 18 Sep 2017, 7:58 pm

Had a bit of a Google.

Sorry you guys have lost me. I don't believe or play with a FFP Scope especially for long range shooting. Had a go at one on a friends rifle and thought it was the worse thing I have ever seen. Can't see how you can be accurate when the crosshairs smother your aiming point when you wind the magnification up.

Then again "mil" is another I don't play with. Sorry but MOA is what I understand.

I'll leave you guys to sort it out, way out of my interest as a target shooter.
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by Apollo » 18 Sep 2017, 8:02 pm

sungazer wrote:The problem sounds like its in your gun. It could be the barrel all the gunsmiths I have ever talked to say they all have some bend in them and the ones I have talked to say they normally fit them (index them) so that it is in the vertical plane and upwards. A factory gun may not always get that attention.


Now that is something I know and deal with working with my Gunsmith. Just been through that with a Short Range Bench Rifle when we were setting it up for a Barrel Tuner. The bend is in the verticle plane, Tuner fitted and initial testing of 5 shots groups is 0.1 MOA at 100m, got to try the next test at 200m to get a "Tuned" load.
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by bladeracer » 18 Sep 2017, 9:00 pm

Apollo wrote:Had a bit of a Google.

Sorry you guys have lost me. I don't believe or play with a FFP Scope especially for long range shooting. Had a go at one on a friends rifle and thought it was the worse thing I have ever seen. Can't see how you can be accurate when the crosshairs smother your aiming point when you wind the magnification up.

Then again "mil" is another I don't play with. Sorry but MOA is what I understand.

I'll leave you guys to sort it out, way out of my interest as a target shooter.



I don't get the FFP for long-range thing either.
FOU posted a training event for long-range precision shooting, and one of the requirements was a FFP scope. When I asked them why they edited it :-)
Surely nobody looking to shoot long range is going to use an FFP scope?

Mils do have one advantage being simply one-thousandth of the radius, or 100mm at 100m. Makes for easy calculation, but I think MoA is actually simpler and more useful, especially at long-ranges.

I bought a book about precision shooting recently written by a US sniper but I can't recommend it. He doesn't even understand what mils are, and thus he completely negates the only advantage they offer - ease of calculation. By insisting on ranging in yards and measuring in inches, his 100mm/100m constant becomes 3.6"/100yds.
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by AndyZ » 18 Sep 2017, 10:07 pm

Apollo wrote:Had a bit of a Google.

Sorry you guys have lost me. I don't believe or play with a FFP Scope especially for long range shooting. Had a go at one on a friends rifle and thought it was the worse thing I have ever seen. Can't see how you can be accurate when the crosshairs smother your aiming point when you wind the magnification up.

Then again "mil" is another I don't play with. Sorry but MOA is what I understand.

I'll leave you guys to sort it out, way out of my interest as a target shooter.

At full power the cross hairs are no fatter than my other MOA scopes. However at lower mag they are much finer and therefore not obliterate the target
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by AndyZ » 18 Sep 2017, 10:16 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Apollo wrote:Had a bit of a Google.

Sorry you guys have lost me. I don't believe or play with a FFP Scope especially for long range shooting. Had a go at one on a friends rifle and thought it was the worse thing I have ever seen. Can't see how you can be accurate when the crosshairs smother your aiming point when you wind the magnification up.

Then again "mil" is another I don't play with. Sorry but MOA is what I understand.

I'll leave you guys to sort it out, way out of my interest as a target shooter.



I don't get the FFP for long-range thing either.
FOU posted a training event for long-range precision shooting, and one of the requirements was a FFP scope. When I asked them why they edited it :-)
Surely nobody looking to shoot long range is going to use an FFP scope?

Mils do have one advantage being simply one-thousandth of the radius, or 100mm at 100m. Makes for easy calculation, but I think MoA is actually simpler and more useful, especially at long-ranges.

I bought a book about precision shooting recently written by a US sniper but I can't recommend it. He doesn't even understand what mils are, and thus he completely negates the only advantage they offer - ease of calculation. By insisting on ranging in yards and measuring in inches, his 100mm/100m constant becomes 3.6"/100yds.
"Long-Range Precision Rifle" by Anthony Cirincione II
I did pick up a few tips from it but not enough to warrant the price.

Actually the calculations are quite easy. 1 mill is 1cm at 100m and 5cm at 500m. I plan to shoot 500m fly and the calculations are much easier than MOA if you think in metric. Plus the adjustment adjustments are much finer. My MOA scopes have 4 clicks per inch at 100m my mill/mill scope is 25 clicks per inch
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by bladeracer » 18 Sep 2017, 10:35 pm

AndyZ wrote:Actually the calculations are quite easy. 1 mill is 1cm at 100m and 5cm at 500m. I plan to shoot 500m fly and the calculations are much easier than MOA if you think in metric. Plus the adjustment adjustments are much finer. My MOA scopes have 4 clicks per inch at 100m my mill/mill scope is 25 clicks per inch


No, 1Mil is "100mm at 100m" (as I explained - it's one-thousandth of the radius. At 100 miles a Mil is one-tenth of a mile.). 0.1Mil is 10mm at 100m. Most Mil scopes use 0.1Mil turrets so each click is 10mm at 100m.
An MoA scope at 0.25MoA is 7.25mm at 100m with each click. A 1/8MoA scope is half that again.

The guy that wrote the book I mentioned specifically talks about the coarse adjustment of Mil scopes. At 1000m each click of the scope is 100mm across the target.
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by Apollo » 18 Sep 2017, 11:56 pm

bladeracer wrote:
AndyZ wrote:Actually the calculations are quite easy. 1 mill is 1cm at 100m and 5cm at 500m. I plan to shoot 500m fly and the calculations are much easier than MOA if you think in metric. Plus the adjustment adjustments are much finer. My MOA scopes have 4 clicks per inch at 100m my mill/mill scope is 25 clicks per inch


No, 1Mil is "100mm at 100m" (as I explained - it's one-thousandth of the radius. At 100 miles a Mil is one-tenth of a mile.). 0.1Mil is 10mm at 100m. Most Mil scopes use 0.1Mil turrets so each click is 10mm at 100m.
An MoA scope at 0.25MoA is 7.25mm at 100m with each click. A 1/8MoA scope is half that again.

The guy that wrote the book I mentioned specifically talks about the coarse adjustment of Mil scopes. At 1000m each click of the scope is 100mm across the target.


Now I know why I don't even want to think about Milrads.... FMD I've got enough dramas going on trying to hit a green pea at 100 Metres.... Notice I didn't say Yards... Bloody hell, We talk in grains of powder, we talk feet per second, we talk in both metric and imperial. Yep, enough to get confused.

"AndyZ".. 500M Fly Comp is what I did and maybe will do more if I can fix my medical problems. Two day shoots with using one or more of my 6.5x47L's is 6 MOA to change from 300m to 600m and be within 2" of centre.. opps, 50mm of centre.... :thumbsup:

I have taught a friend and his son target shooting, started off they couldn't come close to me...Opps, I taught them too well. Both have had a 1st place at 500m National Shoots... my best is a 4th place, best target and smallest group which was so close to being a national record... Opps... BUT, Fly Shooting is HUGE FUN... Rule #10... Any Shooter Found Not Enjoying Themselves Will Be Disqualified...

For 500m Fly my main rifle has a March 8-80x56mm Scope with an MTR-2 etched Redicle. The centre dot is etched, no lines around it and it's a 0.25MOA dot circle around that fine dot which is great for placing on that stupid orange fly at 500 metres...if you can see the fly amoungst the mirage... Not often other than very early morning does the scope get to 80x magnification. If that scope was FFP I would have no hope of being able to pin point a tiny 1/2" orange fly to pick him off. The dot would become so huge in the scope I'd cover the whole area of the 10 ring I think... My view only, sorry I am very, very biased especially having someone like Stuart Elliott (one of our very top BR Shooters) tell me not to go near a FFP Scope.
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by AndyZ » 19 Sep 2017, 9:40 am

bladeracer wrote:
AndyZ wrote:Actually the calculations are quite easy. 1 mill is 1cm at 100m and 5cm at 500m. I plan to shoot 500m fly and the calculations are much easier than MOA if you think in metric. Plus the adjustment adjustments are much finer. My MOA scopes have 4 clicks per inch at 100m my mill/mill scope is 25 clicks per inch


No, 1Mil is "100mm at 100m" (as I explained - it's one-thousandth of the radius. At 100 miles a Mil is one-tenth of a mile.). 0.1Mil is 10mm at 100m. Most Mil scopes use 0.1Mil turrets so each click is 10mm at 100m.
An MoA scope at 0.25MoA is 7.25mm at 100m with each click. A 1/8MoA scope is half that again.

The guy that wrote the book I mentioned specifically talks about the coarse adjustment of Mil scopes. At 1000m each click of the scope is 100mm across the target.

You are correct. Still new to the millrad thing. My scope is 1/10 mill clicks so 1 click = 1 cm at 100.
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by Apollo » 19 Sep 2017, 1:24 pm

Yes, I think the advice was aimed at Target Shooting. Pretty sure Stuart/Annie have a custom built Hunting/Varmint Rifle which has a March FFP Scope. I think there may be some photos at various distances on the March Web Site.

Have not looked at one of the new Nighforce Competition Scopes, did own the older version 12-42x until I went with a number of March Scope whilst I had the funds. Gets to be big dollars when you have four of them. The last was a 10-60x52 Illuminated Reticle to use for hunting/varminting on my Sako .243W which shines when I do a lot of my near on dark longer range varminting.
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by brett1868 » 19 Sep 2017, 4:43 pm

bladeracer wrote:
AndyZ wrote:Actually the calculations are quite easy. 1 mill is 1cm at 100m and 5cm at 500m. I plan to shoot 500m fly and the calculations are much easier than MOA if you think in metric. Plus the adjustment adjustments are much finer. My MOA scopes have 4 clicks per inch at 100m my mill/mill scope is 25 clicks per inch


No, 1Mil is "100mm at 100m" (as I explained - it's one-thousandth of the radius. At 100 miles a Mil is one-tenth of a mile.). 0.1Mil is 10mm at 100m. Most Mil scopes use 0.1Mil turrets so each click is 10mm at 100m.
An MoA scope at 0.25MoA is 7.25mm at 100m with each click. A 1/8MoA scope is half that again.

The guy that wrote the book I mentioned specifically talks about the coarse adjustment of Mil scopes. At 1000m each click of the scope is 100mm across the target.


Here's one for you....0.25cm per click :D Had me scratching my head for a while till it clicked that 1 click is 1/40 of a mil, after that it's all so easy now.
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by bladeracer » 19 Sep 2017, 4:54 pm

AndyZ wrote:At full power the cross hairs are no fatter than my other MOA scopes. However at lower mag they are much finer and therefore not obliterate the target


My Bushnells crosshair is 0.25MoA - that covers 7.5mm of the target at 100m, and 38mm at 500m.
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by Gwion » 20 Sep 2017, 7:24 am

brett1868 wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
AndyZ wrote:Actually the calculations are quite easy. 1 mill is 1cm at 100m and 5cm at 500m. I plan to shoot 500m fly and the calculations are much easier than MOA if you think in metric. Plus the adjustment adjustments are much finer. My MOA scopes have 4 clicks per inch at 100m my mill/mill scope is 25 clicks per inch


No, 1Mil is "100mm at 100m" (as I explained - it's one-thousandth of the radius. At 100 miles a Mil is one-tenth of a mile.). 0.1Mil is 10mm at 100m. Most Mil scopes use 0.1Mil turrets so each click is 10mm at 100m.
An MoA scope at 0.25MoA is 7.25mm at 100m with each click. A 1/8MoA scope is half that again.

The guy that wrote the book I mentioned specifically talks about the coarse adjustment of Mil scopes. At 1000m each click of the scope is 100mm across the target.


Here's one for you....0.25cm per click :D Had me scratching my head for a while till it clicked that 1 click is 1/40 of a mil, after that it's all so easy now.


What scope is that, Brett?

I have always thought that most milrad scopes are 1/10 (0.1) milrad adjustment. 1/40 is pretty damn fine adjustment and would be ideal way out yonder!
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by Gwion » 20 Sep 2017, 8:15 am

I dunno. 25mm click @ 1km is more precise than 50mm click, which is a s**t ton better than 100mm click... Not that any of it would make any difference to me because I'd be lucky just to hit the target at 1km or more, especially with any kind of wind.
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by pomemax » 20 Sep 2017, 11:46 am

do you have a picture of the scope on the rifle that may give us some ideas
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by Gwion » 20 Sep 2017, 12:01 pm

Do you have another rifle and scope that you can swap around to see which has the issue?
Are you sure your mounts/rings don't have a 20moa set and that you have them on the wrong way?
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by jt1986 » 25 Jul 2018, 12:59 am

Andyz how did you go with your athlon scope? im looking at buying one just wanting to know if you got yours sorted? and what you think of the scope?
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 26 Jul 2018, 7:14 pm

Mate I got the 6x24 btr version. Very happy so far and no issues. Bought it from precission defense industries. Would highly recommend them
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by jt1986 » 29 Jul 2018, 7:28 pm

thanks ziad
looking at the 8-34x56mm in moa. keep hearing good things hence looking at the scope but never been able to get behind one just chasing some real world reviews on them
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Re: Not Enough scope travel

Post by pomemax » 29 Jul 2018, 9:38 pm

AndyZ wrote:I am fairly new to shooting so not 100% up with how all of the physics works. I recently bought a Howa 1500 in 6.5 CM and put an Athlon Argos BTR 8-34x56 scope on top. I took it out to the range to zero. I have managed (with some difficulty) to zero at 100m ( I have plans to eventually zero this rifle at 200). The problem I have is that to get this zero I have had to wind the elevation turret all the way to the highest zero stop. I have 13 Mill of elevation travel to the bottom stop but it is all in a downward direction. Someone suggested a 20moa rail would work. Ideally I would like the 100m zero to be a few clicks for the bottom stop to allow me slight adjustments for closer shots but have all of the travel available so that I can get out to 550-1000m. Any one have any other ideas

Do you have a picture of the scope ON THE gun that you can upload ,
who fitted the scope for you "did they have any experience at fitting scopes"
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