Armed security guards

Semi automatic and single shot handguns, revolvers and other pistols

Re: Armed security guards

Post by bigrich » 12 May 2019, 2:21 pm

wanneroo wrote:
bigrich wrote:
wanneroo wrote:I'd be interested to hear what sort of force on force training these guards receive. Sounds to me they have really no preparation for gun to gun combat.


Serious shoot outs just aren’t real common in Australia


Understood, but if you are carrying a gun and the potential for using it exists, you better know how to deal with it otherwise it will do more harm than good.


they don't think ahead much anymore , costs money you see ......... :unknown:
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Chinballs » 12 May 2019, 3:01 pm

Armaguard are progressively switching over to the Beretta APX http://www.beretta.com/en-us/apx-striker/ as their staff roll through their annual requalification course.

As to why they used revolvers for so long, the answer is simple. Cost. Armaguard (and Prosegur, formerly Chubb) have thousands of firearms between them and revolvers were the only option when they got going. Despite the advances in firearms in the intervening years there has been no great incentive to upgrade to semi atuos when there is no real benefit. The pistol is mainly a deterent and a last chance option if the guard's life is threatened so there is no need for bigger ammo capacity, speedier reloads or anything else a semi auto does better than a revolver.

The cost for Armaguard to upgrade to the APX is in the millions and they are getting the guns very cheaply as Beretta has gained no noteworthy contracts for the APX which was entered in the US XM17 Modular Handgun System trials that resulted in the Sig P320 winning. I would say they finally swapped over as the vast majority of their revolvers are all exceptionally old and they finally got sick of rising maintenance costs combined with the difficulty of finding someone to service them all. I know when I was there they didn't use either Nioa or Grycol, the Ruger and S&W importers respectively) for their servicing needs. I assume the APX contract is much more detailed and would include an overall package of magazines, parts, servicing and support as opposed to whatever the deal was thirty years ago when they bought their old revolvers.

In QLD at least, the training for a Cash in Transit guard is no different for revolver or semi auto as far as security license holders go. There is a certain number of shots at a target from set distances (maxes out at 7m from memory) and all shots must be within the human silhouette. The course of fire involves strong and weak hand shooting but most is shot with two hands. The course of fire also involves a couple pf mandatory reloads ie shoot a couple of shots, reload, shoot a couple more. The course is not hard for someone who shoots even semi regularly however over 95% of guards have no interest in shooting and do not have a target license or any other experience shooting handguns.

The initial course takes about a week but most of it is to do with when you can and can't shoot, deescalating threats etc. There's a couple of days of hands on stuff with a max of about a hundred rounds shot including the actual qualification shoot.

Guards can only shoot to defend their own life or the life of another, they can not draw just to protect their cargo. As in any other industry where robbery is a concern the first thing to do is obey the attackers instructions and comply. The reality is most robberies end in no shots fired and the chance of a running shootout is virtually nil unless the guards go rogue and decide they are John Wick all of a sudden. As someone else mentioned you can't cock the hammer on your revolver either. The only time you should pull the gun out is in an imminent threat situation and if you had time to draw, cock the hammer and fire you were not in imminent danger. If they can prove you cocked the hammer you are toast.

Source: I used to work there and still have mates that work there. I kept my security firearms license even though I don't use it as it cost me a few grand to get by the time you include the security course, security license and firearms course and license. I actually have a requal due in the next couple of months.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by doc » 13 May 2019, 10:36 am

bronco93 wrote:I don't think there is anything wrong with a revolver. I enjoy shooting them. I just thought semi auto pistols are more accurate in the average persons hand?


I've found revolvers to be more accurate. I don't know if this relates to the sights being fixed, instead of on a slider which may have some tolerances, or the action, or whatever - but for some reason many believe revolvers to be more accurate. Although we're talking competitive target shooting variances here. To hit center mass - I don't think there's going to be much of a difference. They wouldn't be shooting a gun out of someone's hands like in the movies. :D

Revolvers are more simple though. If it doesn't go bang, keep pulling the trigger to the next round. Pistols on the other hand require more training in clearing a malfunction and jams - and I suspect that security staff get very little ongoing range time.

Pistols are more convenient, I believe they can be lighter (plastic parts vs almost all metal), allow for quicker changes and hold more capacity in a single mag. But as for simple point and shoot a revolver is far more basic. A dud bullet/primer doesn't stop you progressing and more difficult to have jams in a revolver.

Don't underestimate the ol' revolver. ;)
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by duncan61 » 13 May 2019, 8:14 pm

Revolvers are the ducks guts.In England I had opportunity to load and shoot a black powder 6 gun that my father in law owned and it was accurate with moderate recoil and lots of smoke
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bullzeye » 13 May 2019, 9:10 pm

bronco93 wrote:Now I hardly know f all about hand guns. But on the way to work this morning I was sitting at traffic lights and was watching the security guards walk into the bank. And then I started wondering why do they use revolvers and not some sort of modern pistol?


These pistols hardly ever get shot, only very occasionally at training.

In these circumstances a revolver is less likely to jam up than a semi-auto.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by duncan61 » 13 May 2019, 9:35 pm

I had a go with a semi auto ACP at a workshop where there were hammers and grinding going on and the gay little bullet didnt even dent a skip bin at 30 metres,Made a bang like a clawhammer and knocked a bit of paint off.A .357 in a 6 gun would of hit much harder.Young fit male humans take a bit of stopping when they are full of adrenaline or drugs
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by zhuk » 02 Jun 2019, 9:59 pm

wanneroo wrote:
bigrich wrote:
wanneroo wrote:I'd be interested to hear what sort of force on force training these guards receive. Sounds to me they have really no preparation for gun to gun combat.


Serious shoot outs just aren’t real common in Australia


Understood, but if you are carrying a gun and the potential for using it exists, you better know how to deal with it otherwise it will do more harm than good.



Ahh if only you knew how little training police receive, and their resulting accuracy. Not blaming the officers, they can't help it if the instruction is lacking plus the insanely minimal range time which Govts (and by extension, taxpayers) are prepared to pay for.


Revolvers are still carried by security guards mainly for their reliability...they are never going to jam or misfeed.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by flutch » 04 Jun 2019, 8:17 pm

bronco93 wrote:
cracker wrote:
bronco93 wrote:Now I hardly know f all about hand guns. But on the way to work this morning I was sitting at traffic lights and was watching the security guards walk into the bank. And then I started wondering why do they use revolvers and not some sort of modern pistol?

there not theirs, its what the company would supply.
whats wrong with a revolver?


I dont think there is anything wrong with a revolver.
I enjoy shooting them. I just thought semi auto pistols are more accurate in the average persons hand? Saying that, we have all seen the video last year of the aussie copper trying to put down the roo from no more than 3m and was still missing it



Sorry to any blue shirt pigs here but I've seen how coppers shoot, and if I was in a building or area where they were drawing to fire on a bad guy, I would be more scared of the stray bullets from the cops than the antics of the bad guy
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by flutch » 04 Jun 2019, 8:23 pm

Chappo wrote:Like the op I also know sweet fa about handguns but I would assume the biggest reason would be for deterrence and then I’d agree with crackthumps reasoning that they don’t have enough of training or even enough need to warrant a semi auto.

If I could take this off topic slightly, I’ve been watching the Bush Tuckerman series on DVD lately and Les carries a sidearm that looks like it’d do more damage to a croc (or dropbear) if he hit him with it! The thing is huge!!
Like I said I know sweet fa but I’d like to know what it is. Can anyone identify it?
For those of you under 35 and have never heard of Les Hiddins, do yourself a favour.....



HEY! I am under 35 and I know who he is, damn
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by CrackThump » 08 Jul 2019, 8:31 am

an update to a long dead thread lol

we just stopped in at bunnings for a coffee and glyphosate and saw a mating pair of chubb cash transit guards in thier natural habitat..

,..... carrying what looked like glocks.

launceston tasmania is moving into the 20th century finally
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Nick90 » 01 Aug 2019, 8:18 pm

BangBangSkeetSkeet wrote:With the minimal training they receive, if they ever need to draw and use them, 6 missed shots flying off into a crowded CBD is better than a semi fed by a double-stack mag


While the training is minimal, stating all rounds would miss the target and head towards innocent bystanders is clearly wrong. I could put a years wage on the line and bet a minimum of 90% of armed guards in NSW wouldn’t even consider reaching for their pistol.

Comply with the demands of an armed robbery 9 out of 10 times no one will be hurt and with any luck no rounds will be fired but reach for a pistol and I can guarantee they will fire and things get complicated quickly.
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Re: Armed security guard

Post by Nick90 » 01 Aug 2019, 8:36 pm

wanneroo wrote:I'd be interested to hear what sort of force on force training these guards receive. Sounds to me they have really no preparation for gun to gun combat.


In NSW it is a requirement to do training for a 1F (armed guard) license, it’s something like 120 odd hours minimum. Does it teach gun to gun combat? No and nor should that be the outcome ever.

There is a saying they use “win the fight, lose at court” and it is unfortunately mostly true, as soon as their pistol is unholstered reports must be written and notification to police is a must. A security guard in NSW needs extensive training around the laws and regulations and very basic firearms training, they must pass a mandatory shoot every year other than that no further firearms training is provided. Some hold a Cat H license and regularly shoot and participate in comps while some don’t, it’s personal preference.

I work for a certain NSW government in law enforcement and participate in casual security work, the rules and regulations surrounding NSW Security Guards is a absolute joke. God forbid if a security guard discharges their firearm, they will be scrutinised heavily, drained financially and mentally and likely end up spending the next 12-18 months in front of a magistrate.

As for revolvers and semi autos it is upto the employer, security guards in NSW can use either. They can use pistols which would otherwise be deemed prohibited due to barrel length etc... they can also carry weapons concealed if they have the correct permits.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by on_one_wheel » 01 Aug 2019, 9:27 pm

Every time the Armed security guards thread pops up I think of this guy on Bourke Street.

Remember him? :lol:
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images (9).jpeg (39.66 KiB) Viewed 146 times
Gun control requires concentration and a steady hand.


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Re: Armed security guards

Post by straightshooter » 02 Aug 2019, 7:44 am

I don't know if this thread make me want to laugh or cry!
I can still visualise our then Premier Bob Carr in the late 90's mustering up all the gravitas he possessed to tell us that the ownership of firearms was a privilege and they may not be used for the protection of person or property.
What's good for the gander does not seem to apply to the goose.
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