Armed security guards

Semi automatic and single shot handguns, revolvers and other pistols

Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 25 Sep 2020, 7:25 pm

This thread... what a joke :p I'd to keen to hear the opinion of lawyers who have dealt with such cases. So many people here are trying to put the fear of God into people. I will put it down to poor past representation and not enough cases to settle and set a precedent.

Firearms are not a "deterrent," they are not there to threaten people. They are there to end the threat of an aggressor should you reasonably believe that you or another person are in danger of grevious bodily harm or death. Anybody with the slightest bit of experience shooting could tell you when shooting a revolver or even a da/sa semi-auto, it is for more accurate and controlled to fire in a single action manner. Double action under stress could lead to less of a controlled shot and throw the barrel off target. I strongly recommend all shooters; civilian, security, police or military to subscribe to "Active Self Protection" on YouTube, they breakdown situations caught on camera, they do excellent work.

If you reasonably believe that you are in danger, you pull your firearm and you defend yourself if you have to. Compliance can work out for you but you are putting your fate in the hands of the aggressor(s) and quite often that doesn't work out. It is far more unreasonable to put your life in the hands of someone like that instead of defending yourself. You will be scrutinised in court but that is what the court is there for (sometimes) to come up with evidence and facts to determine whether laws were broken and/or the defendent had a genuine defence.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bladeracer » 25 Sep 2020, 8:14 pm

BangWhizzClack wrote:This thread... what a joke :p I'd to keen to hear the opinion of lawyers who have dealt with such cases. So many people here are trying to put the fear of God into people. I will put it down to poor past representation and not enough cases to settle and set a precedent.

Firearms are not a "deterrent," they are not there to threaten people. They are there to end the threat of an aggressor should you reasonably believe that you or another person are in danger of grevious bodily harm or death. Anybody with the slightest bit of experience shooting could tell you when shooting a revolver or even a da/sa semi-auto, it is for more accurate and controlled to fire in a single action manner. Double action under stress could lead to less of a controlled shot and throw the barrel off target. I strongly recommend all shooters; civilian, security, police or military to subscribe to "Active Self Protection" on YouTube, they breakdown situations caught on camera, they do excellent work.

If you reasonably believe that you are in danger, you pull your firearm and you defend yourself if you have to. Compliance can work out for you but you are putting your fate in the hands of the aggressor(s) and quite often that doesn't work out. It is far more unreasonable to put your life in the hands of someone like that instead of defending yourself. You will be scrutinised in court but that is what the court is there for (sometimes) to come up with evidence and facts to determine whether laws were broken and/or the defendent had a genuine defence.


For target shooting, cocking the hammer first is definitely more precise, for combat shooting it's unlikely to be relevant.

In IPSC I always started with the hammer down in double-action autos. It doesn't take a lot of practice to get used to the first trigger pull being different from the rest.

Or use a Glock where it's always the same pull.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 25 Sep 2020, 8:20 pm

In IPSC is that because it was just more effective to shoot the first round in DA rather than taking the time to cock the gun or rack the slide? I'm unsure of the rules for IPSC as I've only watched, never participated in IPSC.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bladeracer » 25 Sep 2020, 8:28 pm

BangWhizzClack wrote:In IPSC is that because it was just more effective to shoot the first round in DA rather than taking the time to cock the gun or rack the slide? I'm unsure of the rules for IPSC as I've only watched, never participated in IPSC.


It was because I prefer to shoot IPSC as a practical competition, as in real world combat shooting. I prefer to carry a DA auto with the hammer down on a loaded chamber, safety on. The safety never slowed me down so I never bothered practicing with the safety off. Safety is dropped as you draw then you just start firing, exactly the same as a cocked-and-locked SA auto, but with the additional safety offered by the very long first trigger pull.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 25 Sep 2020, 8:36 pm

What semi-auto pistol do you use? Also do you have any experience in the security/police/military arena's?
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bladeracer » 25 Sep 2020, 8:56 pm

BangWhizzClack wrote:What semi-auto pistol do you use? Also do you have any experience in the security/police/military arena's?


Mine was a CZ85 clone made by Tanfoglio, 17+1 of 9mm Para. I stopped pistol shooting in 2003.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 25 Sep 2020, 9:04 pm

bladeracer wrote:
BangWhizzClack wrote:What semi-auto pistol do you use? Also do you have any experience in the security/police/military arena's?


Mine was a CZ85 clone made by Tanfoglio, 17+1 of 9mm Para. I stopped pistol shooting in 2003.


That sucks that you stopped. Were 17+1's legal in '03? Or was that because you have a special need for it?
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bladeracer » 25 Sep 2020, 9:12 pm

BangWhizzClack wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
BangWhizzClack wrote:What semi-auto pistol do you use? Also do you have any experience in the security/police/military arena's?


Mine was a CZ85 clone made by Tanfoglio, 17+1 of 9mm Para. I stopped pistol shooting in 2003.


That sucks that you stopped. Were 17+1's legal in '03? Or was that because you have a special need for it?


It was still legal back then. I was crook and found range attendances near impossible, and had better things to put the money toward. The government handgun buyback paid me more for it than I paid for it new in 1990 :-)
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 25 Sep 2020, 9:17 pm

I'm guessing you wouldn't consider getting back into it? What do you shoot nowadays?
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bladeracer » 25 Sep 2020, 10:00 pm

BangWhizzClack wrote:I'm guessing you wouldn't consider getting back into it? What do you shoot nowadays?


I'm not against getting back into handgun competition, but getting to clubs is very difficult and not outweighed by my interest level just now. I'd be more likely to own handguns under a collectors licence, except that they would likely expect me to move a lot of my firearms to collectors status.

Nowadays I mainly shoot .22 rifles and milsurps, but lately I'm experimenting with 12ga. reloading.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 25 Sep 2020, 10:08 pm

Okay, with collectors licences you aren't allowed to own ammo for the firearm obtained for collection purposes, but let's say you got a pump action for a collection but you already own a 12g double barrel or lever action, any idea what the go is there?
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bladeracer » 25 Sep 2020, 10:19 pm

BangWhizzClack wrote:Okay, with collectors licences you aren't allowed to own ammo for the firearm obtained for collection purposes, but let's say you got a pump action for a collection but you already own a 12g double barrel or lever action, any idea what the go is there?


You are allowed to fire collector-licenced firearms, but only at organised club events, which is why all my firearms are CatA/B, so I can use them whenever I feel like it. Because I don't want to be forced to put them on a Collectors Licence I have so far avoided getting one.

I have read about the restriction on ammo, I don't think it applies if you have legitimate reason to own ammo for a non-collector firearm. I'm not sure it's even a Victorian rule, I'd have to check that.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 25 Sep 2020, 10:38 pm

So if you were to get a collector license for A/B/C/D/H all firearms would become collector's items? And you can only fire them at club events?
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bladeracer » 25 Sep 2020, 10:45 pm

BangWhizzClack wrote:So if you were to get a collector license for A/B/C/D/H all firearms would become collector's items? And you can only fire them at club events?


Not quite. I have a fair number of CatB firearms, requiring an additional letter to Firearms explaining why I want another one every time I buy one (this requirement occurs after your fifteenth CatB firearm). I believe they would insist that if I had a collectors licence I should move a lot of my firearms onto it, for no reason I can fathom, other than to make them legally unusable on the farm.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 25 Sep 2020, 10:52 pm

bladeracer wrote:
BangWhizzClack wrote:So if you were to get a collector license for A/B/C/D/H all firearms would become collector's items? And you can only fire them at club events?


Not quite. I have a fair number of CatB firearms, requiring an additional letter to Firearms explaining why I want another one every time I buy one (this requirement occurs after your fifteenth CatB firearm). I believe they would insist that if I had a collectors licence I should move a lot of my firearms onto it, for no reason I can fathom, other than to make them legally unusable on the farm.


Hmmm, I'd have to talk to a dealer or get a second opinion on that because that is strange, I don't understand why you couldn't still use them for cat B hunting/primary producer/sporting purposes. Does each firearm need to have a specific reason attached to it if you have multiple genuine reasons for your licence? Also, what tends to be your reasoning when explaining to them why you need another military surplus rifle of similar calibre?
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Diamond Jim » 26 Sep 2020, 2:13 am

BangWhizzClack wrote:In IPSC is that because it was just more effective to shoot the first round in DA rather than taking the time to cock the gun or rack the slide? I'm unsure of the rules for IPSC as I've only watched, never participated in IPSC.

In 22 years of shooting IPSC I think I've only ever fired my revolver single action a couple of times on long range targets (for IPSC that is - maybe 25m or so) and only on those little steel poppers or plates (they are bastards of things). Nobody uses single action in that game and it's not unheard of for revolvers to be converted to double action only.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 26 Sep 2020, 3:00 am

Diamond Jim wrote:
BangWhizzClack wrote:In IPSC is that because it was just more effective to shoot the first round in DA rather than taking the time to cock the gun or rack the slide? I'm unsure of the rules for IPSC as I've only watched, never participated in IPSC.

In 22 years of shooting IPSC I think I've only ever fired my revolver single action a couple of times on long range targets (for IPSC that is - maybe 25m or so) and only on those little steel poppers or plates (they are bastards of things). Nobody uses single action in that game and it's not unheard of for revolvers to be converted to double action only.


Did you get a trigger job done or buy a nice gun with a light trigger? DA with a heavy ass trigger will seriously affect accuracy, while not necessarily totally off target as most defensive shootings are within the 6.5m mark, armed with gun or sharp implement. It can be enough to go from an effectively placed shot or shots that stops the target, to one that just pisses them off.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Diamond Jim » 26 Sep 2020, 3:45 am

BangWhizzClack wrote:
Diamond Jim wrote:
BangWhizzClack wrote:In IPSC is that because it was just more effective to shoot the first round in DA rather than taking the time to cock the gun or rack the slide? I'm unsure of the rules for IPSC as I've only watched, never participated in IPSC.

In 22 years of shooting IPSC I think I've only ever fired my revolver single action a couple of times on long range targets (for IPSC that is - maybe 25m or so) and only on those little steel poppers or plates (they are bastards of things). Nobody uses single action in that game and it's not unheard of for revolvers to be converted to double action only.


Did you get a trigger job done or buy a nice gun with a light trigger? DA with a heavy ass trigger will seriously affect accuracy, while not necessarily totally off target as most defensive shootings are within the 6.5m mark, armed with gun or sharp implement. It can be enough to go from an effectively placed shot or shots that stops the target, to one that just pisses them off.

My revolver is an older model. I've done no modifications to it but a previous owner may have. I have no reference point as to other revolvers. DA is standard practice in the game I play. We generally use a two handed grip - unless the stage instructions specify otherwise. I can only report that my revolver - shooting DA - is more accurate than my semi-auto.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 26 Sep 2020, 9:59 am

Okay, I've only shot pistols at 25m I think (not including air pistol) I really prefer SA, it's just less pressure on the trigger, which means less pressure pushing the point of aim elsewhere.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bladeracer » 26 Sep 2020, 10:55 am

BangWhizzClack wrote:Okay, I've only shot pistols at 25m I think (not including air pistol) I really prefer SA, it's just less pressure on the trigger, which means less pressure pushing the point of aim elsewhere.


I used to practice taking head shots on the old-style IPSC silhouettes at 80m, handguns can group very decently.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 26 Sep 2020, 6:15 pm

bladeracer wrote:
BangWhizzClack wrote:Okay, I've only shot pistols at 25m I think (not including air pistol) I really prefer SA, it's just less pressure on the trigger, which means less pressure pushing the point of aim elsewhere.


I used to practice taking head shots on the old-style IPSC silhouettes at 80m, handguns can group very decently.


That's not something I'd mention in court hahaha. But yes, in a controlled environment it possible to do a lot of things, in a defensive situation, not so much.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bladeracer » 26 Sep 2020, 6:41 pm

BangWhizzClack wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
BangWhizzClack wrote:Okay, I've only shot pistols at 25m I think (not including air pistol) I really prefer SA, it's just less pressure on the trigger, which means less pressure pushing the point of aim elsewhere.


I used to practice taking head shots on the old-style IPSC silhouettes at 80m, handguns can group very decently.


That's not something I'd mention in court hahaha. But yes, in a controlled environment it possible to do a lot of things, in a defensive situation, not so much.


Generally I preferred to shoot the torso, but practicing on the upper A-Zone is worth doing. I have used .45ACP in IPSC, and it's nice being able to fling bullets in the general direction of the targets, but I prefer better shot placement, and if you are hitting the A-Zones there's no need for bigger bullets :-)
The original IPSC targets, and the newer politically-correct style.
IPSC targets.JPG
IPSC targets.JPG (240.57 KiB) Viewed 5023 times


http://www.rbgc.org/USPSA/USPSAscoring.htm
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 26 Sep 2020, 7:16 pm

I think there is a big difference between IPSC and a defensive shooting scenario, while the pressure and speed can certainly help, here are some differences.

IPSC:
- You know the course of action and when you can start shooting
- You know all back drops behind the targets are safe
- There is a strong focus on safety, but not nearly as high as a public shooting.
- Targets are typically stationary
- Target is not a threat
- Speed holsters are used
- Shooter is typically fresh and ready

Defensive shooting:
- Bad guy(s)/girl(s) (inclusive haha) have the element of surprise and get to choose the time and place of attack.
- Usually the back drops in a public setting are unsafe or unknown
- Time is really of the essence so you cannot think about things for too long.
- Fear of severe punishishment
- Adrenaline Surging
- Target(s) could be moving around in multiple positions (not typical in robberies, but pro's would use this tactic)
- Holster could be sticky and slow
- Could be at the end of a long shift after a hot day in sweaty, stinky, uncomfortable armour the day after an intense leg day and your partner cheating on you (not fresh and ready).
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bladeracer » 26 Sep 2020, 7:48 pm

These points apply equally to virtually all training involving live ammo though.
Training this way though removes a lot of the "surprise" when you do find yourself in a bad situation, that can make a huge difference.

You only know the course of fire if you walk it beforehand, I preferred not to. Being a scored competition though, you do need to know how many targets to neutralise and the safe direction through the course. This can all be garnered from the plan at the start of each course.

You are not required to use competition holsters, I never did. We had members that preferred shoulder rigs also.

Very few real-world scenarios require three 17rd mags, have 20+ threats to take down, or require moving through rooms toward obvious threats. Generally, in the real world you would be retreating to cover so as to determine the situation, often have no idea who the threat is or which direction it is coming from.

Stresses are simulated by arbitrary rules, complex directions you have to follow, and such things that force you to process data during the course of fire.

By the end of a day you are very far from fresh and ready, it can be grueling clambering through car bodies, over and under scaffolding, crawling through pipes, dragging dummies around, all things designed to increase the stress content of the course. With political correctness I fear that IPSC is not what it was, but I would hope it is even more fun nowadays.

The best courses of fire I ever did were inside the SAS 360-degree killhouse in Perth, the walls are lined with strips of conveyor belt so you can shoot in all directions.

The National Championships were also extremely good fun, and a real workout over two full days.


BangWhizzClack wrote:I think there is a big difference between IPSC and a defensive shooting scenario, while the pressure and speed can certainly help, here are some differences.
Targets can be movers but it's difficult. The easiest is a swinger triggered by dropping a steel popper, then it swings in and out of cover behind no-shoot targets.

IPSC:
- You know the course of action and when you can start shooting
- You know all back drops behind the targets are safe
- There is a strong focus on safety, but not nearly as high as a public shooting.
- Targets are typically stationary
- Target is not a threat
- Speed holsters are used
- Shooter is typically fresh and ready

Defensive shooting:
- Bad guy(s)/girl(s) (inclusive haha) have the element of surprise and get to choose the time and place of attack.
- Usually the back drops in a public setting are unsafe or unknown
- Time is really of the essence so you cannot think about things for too long.
- Fear of severe punishishment
- Adrenaline Surging
- Target(s) could be moving around in multiple positions (not typical in robberies, but pro's would use this tactic)
- Holster could be sticky and slow
- Could be at the end of a long shift after a hot day in sweaty, stinky, uncomfortable armour the day after an intense leg day and your partner cheating on you (not fresh and ready).
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 26 Sep 2020, 8:05 pm

Interesting, I'd love to make 360 kill house XD. From all the footage I've seen IPSC is not that extreme, it's mainly just walk within the lines and pop a squat or walk over a see-saw occasionally, maybe that's the only stuff they show. But sounds like it was hella cool back in your time.

Hey, just because you're not likely to take on 20+ opponents, doesn't mean you shouldn't train for it :P I'd be keen on a 3-gun competition in Australia too other than cowboy action (technically 4-gun)
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by bladeracer » 26 Sep 2020, 8:27 pm

BangWhizzClack wrote:Interesting, I'd love to make 360 kill house XD. From all the footage I've seen IPSC is not that extreme, it's mainly just walk within the lines and pop a squat or walk over a see-saw occasionally, maybe that's the only stuff they show. But sounds like it was hella cool back in your time.

Hey, just because you're not likely to take on 20+ opponents, doesn't mean you shouldn't train for it :P I'd be keen on a 3-gun competition in Australia too other than cowboy action (technically 4-gun)


I'd like to see our "practical shooting" better directed to our real-world likelihood. The odds of having a handgun to defend yourself in Oz nowadays is virtually zero, but a bolt- or lever-rifle or a break-action gun would be more realistic for our situation due to our laws. But handguns are great fun in IPSC regardless of the reality.

I find 3-gun is just silly, 2-gun is reasonable. 3-gun is more like a computer game where you can carry a selection of firearms and switch between them as required, than the real-world where you're lucky to even have one. Even more likely is that the firearm you happen to have is less than perfectly suited to dealing with the situation you find yourself in.

Cowboy Action is just boring in the extreme to watch, possibly more fun in the doing, at least the first few times. It makes no claim to being a "practical" competition though, I believe they class it as display shooting, or something like that? Probably still a lot more fun than target pistol competition though.
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Re: Armed security guards

Post by Member-Deleted » 26 Sep 2020, 8:36 pm

Our real world likelihood would include being woken up in the middle of the night by police who are confiscating firearms in interest of public safety XD

Or running and finding cover as chances are you are many km's away from your firearm XD

If we could get a chance to competitively shoot 3-gun then we could creep into semi-auto for sporting purposes instead of being stuck in the 1800's as the shooting world passes us by.

You're right though, however I do think handguns would be better suited in most defensive shootings as there is less over-prenetration.
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