Hand gun particpation with no gun on license

[cracker]

Received a letter in the last week reguard handgun pacticpation in 2019 for my cat - h.
saying
"Under the provison of section 16(3) of the firearms act 1996, handgun license holders who own hands for target shooting are required to participate in a minimum number of approved handgun target shooting matches and handgun target shots annually."

it goes on, i didnt attended anything in the year 2019 and i may loose my license and or handguns.

i understand that, but i dont have anything registered on my cat h, but i would like to be able to keep my cat h license so i can still use friends cat h guns at the range...
any suggestions in what my response should be? i worked quite hard to get the license and whilest i dont use it often id like to keep it so i can still use it
any input would be great
thanks

[Farmerpete]

To put this simply it comes back to being Australia not America. You need to prove your genuine NEED for a license.

If your going to just shoot occasionally with your friends gun then in the eyes of police you should not have a license. You should just do the opposite of David Elliott's example and fill out the paperwork BEFORE shooting under supervision.

It doesn't say you have to spend one day a month at the range just compete in multiple matches for a couple of weekends and you'll probably meet the requirements.

[TassieTiger]

Mr Pete is right - you currently don’t have need for a cat H licence, so they can and will revoke it...the law was written that way for a reason. I’m surprised you didn’t see it coming - as you say, it’s far from simplistic in getting a H.

[rc42]

If you don't possess a handgun under your Cat H license then it appears that section 16 of the VIC firearms act 1996 does not apply to you so you have no minimum attendance requirements.
Looks like you got a generic letter so, if you have to, you should respond that you didn't need to meet any participation requirements as per section 16(11) of the act as you don't possess a handgun under your license.
You should be OK but as with any correspondence with police don't add any other information unless it's specifically asked for and even then only if they have a right or at least a reasonable need to know.


S. 16(11) inserted by No. 78/2005 s. 12(6).

(11) This section (other than subsection (1)) does not apply to—

(a) the holder of a handgun target shooting licence, where that person does not possess a handgun under that licence; or

[Sarco]

We have had members in my club that have received similar letters but have attended multiple time using club guns.

Under the Act (s15(b)) there is a requirement to be a member of and remain a member of an approved handgun target shooting club.

If you do not own any handguns, in accordance with the Table attached to s16(3) there is no attendance requirement.

However s15(b) still applies in that you must remain a member of an approved handgun target shooting club.

As such the logical response, assuming that you have remained a club member, (noting SSAA membership etc alone does not constitute an "approved handgun target shooting club") is to send LRD a letter outlining your membership (including evidence) of an approved handgun target shooting club and that you do not own any handguns.

But be aware that the club secretary must also continue to report you as a member, even though you may not have shot at the club, and to do that he needs reports and evidence of where you have participated. Most secretaries I know would expect that you put in an appearance and participate regularly at you "Principal Club"

Data entry quality at LRD continues to be an issue.

Do not trust the the flunky and/or computer that spits out these letters understands the Act.

[trekin]

To put this simply it comes back to being Australia not America. You need to prove your genuine NEED for a license.

If your going to just shoot occasionally with your friends gun then in the eyes of police you should not have a license. You should just do the opposite of David Elliott's example and fill out the paperwork BEFORE shooting under supervision.

It doesn't say you have to spend one day a month at the range just compete in multiple matches for a couple of weekends and you'll probably meet the requirements.

Mr Pete is right - you currently don’t have need for a cat H licence, so they can and will revoke it...the law was written that way for a reason. I’m surprised you didn’t see it coming - as you say, it’s far from simplistic in getting a H.

Don't know the laws in Vic or Tas, but in QLD you can be Cat H licenced without having a firearm registered to it. Participation is only required "IF a licensee is the registered owner of a category H weapon, it is a special condition of the licensee’s licence that the licensee—" Section 134 of the QLD Weapons Act.

[TassieTiger]

In Tas - legislation says;

Restrictions on granting Category H firearms licence
(1) The Commissioner must not grant an application for a Category H firearms licence unless the Commissioner is satisfied that –
(a) the applicant has one of the following genuine reasons for applying for the licence:
(i) sport or target shooting;

(b) the person needs to possess or use a firearm of the category to which the application relates in connection with that genuine reason.

Cannot be licensed and “not” use it.

[trekin]

Well then, that sucks, doesn't it?

[TassieTiger]

That’s the goVt lawyers at their finest. Too bad if your having financial issues for a period of time and you decide to cut back on some hobby’s...
I do need to apologise to OP - once again, I wrongly assumed continuity of laws in this country...(sigh).

[trekin]

Could be worse, we could all be stuck with WA's laws.

[cracker]

We have had members in my club that have received similar letters but have attended multiple time using club guns.

Under the Act (s15(b)) there is a requirement to be a member of and remain a member of an approved handgun target shooting club.

If you do not own any handguns, in accordance with the Table attached to s16(3) there is no attendance requirement.

However s15(b) still applies in that you must remain a member of an approved handgun target shooting club.

As such the logical response, assuming that you have remained a club member, (noting SSAA membership etc alone does not constitute an "approved handgun target shooting club") is to send LRD a letter outlining your membership (including evidence) of an approved handgun target shooting club and that you do not own any handguns.

But be aware that the club secretary must also continue to report you as a member, even though you may not have shot at the club, and to do that he needs reports and evidence of where you have participated. Most secretaries I know would expect that you put in an appearance and participate regularly at you "Principal Club"



Data entry quality at LRD continues to be an issue.

Do not trust the the flunky and/or computer that spits out these letters understands the Act.

excellent thanks for the response.
yes i am a memmber of ssaa and a financial member of a pistol club.

i have to respond too the letter, i got my cat h because it was a condition of getting my collectors license which i do own handguns on.

[CrackThump]

+1 to what Sarco just said.

in my first year as a member of SSAA Tasmania and an active member of a pistol club, I saw everyone else getting their attendance cards signed at every shoot.. So I rang Firearm Services amd was told that I only need to worry about mandatory attendances once I have pistols registed to me amd in my possesion.

so for the first year I just used club or borrowed pistols.

I wonder how much this would differ state to state.

[Nigel]

Contrary to what a lot of people on here seem to think, there is no requirement under Victorian law to own a particular type of firearm just because you have a licence to use and posses that type of firearm. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of people who are licensed so that they may legally use and posses firearms that belong to friends, family members or employers. They do no have their licences cancelled because they don't own any firearms.

I had a category H licence in NSW for 21 months before I purchased my first handgun. I completed the NSW participation requirements using club guns even though I was technically not subject to them. The participation requirements in NSW are tied to ownership.

The handgun participation requirements in Victoria are a little more complicated than NSW. According to section 16 of the Firearms Act, if you have Cat H licence, you must fulfill the participation requirements corresponding to the number of classes of handguns that you posses, carry or use during the year. If you don't touch a handgun at all during the year then, technically, you do not have to fulfill any participation requirement. If you posses or use a handgun at all during the year, then you are required to meet the minimum participation requirements. Ownership is not mentioned in the provisions relating to participation requirements.

The reason you have been identified as a person who has not fulfilled their participation requirements is almost certainly because your club has reported you as such. You should have discussed this issue with your club a long time ago. They are responsible for reporting participation compliance so, at the end of the day, what they believe you need to do to stay off the list is all that really matters.

[Sarco]

Contrary to what a lot of people on here seem to think, there is no requirement under Victorian law to own a particular type of firearm just because you have a licence to use and posses that type of firearm. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of people who are licensed so that they may legally use and posses firearms that belong to friends, family members or employers. They do no have their licences cancelled because they don't own any firearms.

I had a category H licence in NSW for 21 months before I purchased my first handgun. I completed the NSW participation requirements using club guns even though I was technically not subject to them. The participation requirements in NSW are tied to ownership.

The handgun participation requirements in Victoria are a little more complicated than NSW. According to section 16 of the Firearms Act, if you have Cat H licence, you must fulfill the participation requirements corresponding to the number of classes of handguns that you posses, carry or use during the year. If you don't touch a handgun at all during the year then, technically, you do not have to fulfill any participation requirement. If you posses or use a handgun at all during the year, then you are required to meet the minimum participation requirements. Ownership is not mentioned in the provisions relating to participation requirements.

The reason you have been identified as a person who has not fulfilled their participation requirements is almost certainly because your club has reported you as such. You should have discussed this issue with your club a long time ago. They are responsible for reporting participation compliance so, at the end of the day, what they believe you need to do to stay off the list is all that really matters.

The embolden bit -

No, Vic rules are simple - If you do not own any handguns at all, there are NO attendance requirements. PERIOD. However, you MUST remain a member of an approved handgun shooting club to RETAIN your general category handgun licence.

I, as the club secretary of your principle club (the one that is required to report to Mr Plod in relation to attendances each calendar year), however would expect to see you regularly at shoots (using club handguns), if I am reporting on you, but it is NOT a requirement under the Act and is the responsibility of the club to manage as they see fit.

[TassieTiger]

^ regardless of the law (which is a stupid thing to say on my behalf), how would you justify a genuine need to retain a cat H licence, if you didn’t undertake a single shoot in a calendar year...wouldn’t the fact that you didn’t fire a handgun in 365 days be enough for a zealous servant to question need?

[Sarco]

Probably, (noting I am not a qualified lawyer) but that is not a requirement of the Vic Firearms Act 1996, therefore it could be subject to appeal.
It could be argued that the "Genuine Need" is that of being required by law to have a licence to shoot handguns in Victoria more than 13 times in a lifetime (also part of the Act), if you don't have a licence.

But the requirement to remain a member of an approved handgun shooting club is a requirement under the Act.

[rc42]

If you don't possess a concealable firearm the police don't care if you have a Cat H license but don't attend shoots as long as you stay a financial member of an approved club.
They do care if you don't shoot but have that shooting as your genuine reason to be in possession of a concealable firearm.

The penalty of license cancellation is just the means to take all Cat H firearms away from you if your 'genuine need' can be demonstrated as not genuine.


QLD has the same rules, minimum shoots only apply if you possess a pistol. If you don't then you pose no risk to 'public safety'.
Police also can't ensure that a pistol will be made available for you to participate in shoots as clubs supplying loan guns is not prescribed in the legislation. They can only reasonably expect you to use a pistol that you lawfully possess.

[AussieCapitalist]

Thats why I think more people should join a collectors guild and get their collectors licence for modern post 1947 handguns. Keep them in the safe and once a year or so you can take them to the meetup for a shoot. No mag limits and calibre restrictions.

[Rwd22]

Thats why I think more people should join a collectors guild and get their collectors licence for modern post 1947 handguns. Keep them in the safe and once a year or so you can take them to the meetup for a shoot. No mag limits and calibre restrictions.

How does it work with normal range visits? I need to read up on it some more. Sounds like a good way to get your hands on otherwise restricted handguns, but I think I'd still rather do the regular club comp shoots and practice sessions, once a year sounds like a bit of a drag if you can't shoot regularly even with the standard approved platforms and calibres.

[AussieCapitalist]

How does it work with normal range visits? I need to read up on it some more. Sounds like a good way to get your hands on otherwise restricted handguns, but I think I'd still rather do the regular club comp shoots and practice sessions, once a year sounds like a bit of a drag if you can't shoot regularly even with the standard approved platforms and calibres.

You can only use firearms obtained on a collectors licence at accredited collector events. I only used once a year as an example. They maybe once a month or every six months etc. That would depend on the organisation but they are not an everyday thing.

You can get any class C firearm and any class H firearm(without mag limits). You can transfer firearms from your collector licence to your A/B/H licence so you can use it at a range if it meets the requirements of that licence.

[Rwd22]

How does it work with normal range visits? I need to read up on it some more. Sounds like a good way to get your hands on otherwise restricted handguns, but I think I'd still rather do the regular club comp shoots and practice sessions, once a year sounds like a bit of a drag if you can't shoot regularly even with the standard approved platforms and calibres.

You can only use firearms obtained on a collectors licence at accredited collector events. I only used once a year as an example. They maybe once a month or every six months etc. That would depend on the organisation but they are not an everyday thing.

You can get any class C firearm and any class H firearm(without mag limits). You can transfer firearms from your collector licence to your A/B/H licence so you can use it at a range if it meets the requirements of that licence.

So taking away from the last part, unless you only want to use them a handful of times throughout the year, you're still going to be subject to a H license yearly fee and the required shoots, along with a club membership. So the only real value is being able to own restricted items that can be used a few times a year, by also paying a collectors guild membership and whatever costs are associated with these particular collector events?

I can certainly see the pro's and con's of it, probably not something I'd be interested in.

[TassieTiger]

I’d love a few cat H firearms (Even my wife has expressed a passing interest) and I have remote properties, where if it was legAl, I could shoot them but with current laws - it’s just too time consuming vs payoff for my own situation.

[AussieCapitalist]

So taking away from the last part, unless you only want to use them a handful of times throughout the year, you're still going to be subject to a H license yearly fee and the required shoots, along with a club membership. So the only real value is being able to own restricted items that can be used a few times a year, by also paying a collectors guild membership and whatever costs are associated with these particular collector events?

I can certainly see the pro's and con's of it, probably not something I'd be interested in.

If you have a collectors licence you dont need a cat H licence. A collectors licence lets you own cat H firearms without having a cat H licence and doing the minimum shoots at a range that are associated with that.. The kicker is you can only use firearms on a collector licence when the guild has a meet on.

So if you only want to shoot 1-2 times a year a collector licence is good. It is not for everybody because some people want to shoot a lot more often but club membership at shooters union is $20 a year and weapons licensing charge like $16 a year.

You can still get a cat H licence to shoot handguns during the year and use your collector licence for the guild meets if you like. Or if you get sick etc and can not meet your minimum shoot requirements you can transfer your handguns to your collector licence so you can still keep them for collection purposes. There is pros and cons like you said but to me for $36 a year(plus what ever the guild shoot costs) it is worth it.

[AussieCapitalist]

I’d love a few cat H firearms (Even my wife has expressed a passing interest) and I have remote properties, where if it was legAl, I could shoot them but with current laws - it’s just too time consuming vs payoff for my own situation.

My views on gun laws are known on this site however I think all shooters can agree that we need to be able to use handguns on private land. If we are allowed to keep them in our safe and drive them to a range, why can we not keep them in our safe and drive them to a private property? Its the same thing. Handguns on private land, suppressors, appearance law scraped and the registry scraped is achievable within the next 5-10 years. These are not so called extreme policies.

[cracker]

turned out to be a small admin error on lrds side.
all good.

[brett1868]

There's a 2 tier requirement in play as well. In order to maintain your license to must be a member of an approved club (first tier). Clubs will have an attendance requirement that must be met in order to remain a member (Second tier). You need to check the attendance requirements of your club and either abide by them or give good reason why you were unable to. I went through this with my 14yr old son as he missed a reporting period then the Covid 19 lockdown, a quick email to the club secretary outlining why he couldn't shoot and all was good.
In short - Pistol Clubs can deny renewal if you haven't met their attendance requirements and you cannot hold a license unless your a member of an approved club.

[Nigel]

No, Vic rules are simple - If you do not own any handguns at all, there are NO attendance requirements. PERIOD. However, you MUST remain a member of an approved handgun shooting club to RETAIN your general category handgun licence.

That may be the practice of your club and Victoria Police but it is not the law.

The law states that you must fulfill participation requirements if you "possessed, carried or used" a handgun during the year. It is possible to posses, carry or use a handgun without owning one.

See Firearms Act 1996 (Vic) section 16(3) (http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/ ... 2/s16.html).

[Sarco]

No, Vic rules are simple - If you do not own any handguns at all, there are NO attendance requirements. PERIOD. However, you MUST remain a member of an approved handgun shooting club to RETAIN your general category handgun licence.

That may be the practice of your club and Victoria Police but it is not the law.

The law states that you must fulfill participation requirements if you "possessed, carried or used" a handgun during the year. It is possible to posses, carry or use a handgun without owning one.

See Firearms Act 1996 (Vic) section 16(3) (http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/ ... 2/s16.html).

Handgun Participation Guide -(V9)(2).pdf

(239.39 KiB) Downloaded 3537 times

While yes, I agree that the text of the Act could be interpreted that way. However, the included table does not indicate that as a requirement.

Further the attached LRD *.pdf doc indicates that ZERO handguns "owned" means ZERO attendances required. While it was issued in 2012 (following changes to the Act) it is still a current document and actually used the word "exceptions".

[johnboy357]

Do you have some form of attendance card that needs to be completed each time you are at the range? If you used a friends gun at the range on occasions why does that not count as an attendance ??

[Sarco]

Certainly the clubs I belong to (3 different ones) all have a card/sheet to be signed off when you shoot at a club other than your principle club. These attendances then having to be reported to the secretary of your principal club.

All Vic pistol clubs as far as I am aware, require that you sign on and detail at least the serial number of the handgun that you use, I also believe that most clubs require the calibre to be recorded as well. This would give a cross reference if required for your reporting to your principal club

It may well be the case that it is a mates handgun or a club gun, but that is the one for which the serial number must be recorded.