Same platform rimfire and centrefire pistols

[bladeracer]

I decided to get back into pistol shooting, Rose has also taken it up and is loving it.

Although my local club doesn't shoot IPSC, I want something I can go and shoot an occasional IPSC comp with. And I'd really like to be able to shoot their Rimfire matches with the same platform (I see no value at all in any firearm that is designed purely to excel at competition). A conversion is a good option but I think it'd work better if I could get two pistols, one rimfire, one centrefire, then Rose and I can still shoot on the same day without having to share one pistol. The obvious choice is the 1911 I guess, and the Glocks of course. I know the Beretta 92 also has a rimfire version (there's even a .177 air-pistol version), and I know there are conversions for the CZ75/85 and Browning Hi-Power but what other options are available, especially within Australia?

I prefer steel or aluminium framed hammer-fired over polymer striker-fired designs (I had a play with an HK VP9 on Saturday). The polymer designs do offer a weight advantage due to my right wrist/shoulder injuries so I'm not ruling them out, and have plenty of time to try lots of different ones before I need to decide. I had a go with a Walther SP22 M4 as well, which was really weird but I quite liked it, despite some annoying quirks. I was amazed to discover it's hammer-fired as it felt like a striker design when I was shooting it. So far the pistol that I find I shoot the best is a Browning International Medalist. I love the trigger, the sights work for me really well, and it points very naturally for me - it makes good shooting very easy for me. If I can find one of these I'd love it for matches but I'd still like a trainer that matches whichever centrefire I go with.

The vast majority of my shooting was with the CZ75/85 so I'm leaning toward that direction, but the looooonnnnng waiting period around handguns nowadays gives me the opportunity to look at lots of different options.

I'm also looking at class4 which includes pre-1957(?) pistols in calibers larger than .357", I think basically 1911's in .45ACP, and revolvers in .41/.44/.45-calibres. The pistol must be a pre-57 design but can be a modern replica in one of the older chamberings (ie - not .40S&W).

[No1Mk3]

G'day bladeracer,
VicPol Class 4 handgun is anything over 38 up to 45 (inc 455 Webley) regardless of age.

[6mm Remington]

Have you considered revolvers ?
Both Colt and Smith & Wesson make nice 10 shot revolvers in 22LR
I have tried the new Colt's and they have excellent double action triggers.

[bladeracer]

G'day bladeracer,
VicPol Class 4 handgun is anything over 38 up to 45 (inc 455 Webley) regardless of age.

Yes, that was my understanding, I tried finding this date thing but perhaps it's a VAPA thing rather than law? I forgot to ask the guys tonight at the shoot.

Do you know if ".38" includes the .38-40?

[deye243]

G'day bladeracer,
VicPol Class 4 handgun is anything over 38 up to 45 (inc 455 Webley) regardless of age.

Yes, that was my understanding, I tried finding this date thing but perhaps it's a VAPA thing rather than law? I forgot to ask the guys tonight at the shoot.

Do you know if ".38" includes the .38-40?

Yep our club dumped vapa years ago some blokes in our club have 460s&w 500s&w and 50ae capable are the anti fun .
That said I'm getting a .45acp to go with my 9mm

[bladeracer]

Have you considered revolvers ?
Both Colt and Smith & Wesson make nice 10 shot revolvers in 22LR
I have tried the new Colt's and they have excellent double action triggers.

Absolutely, I love revolvers
I had a Single Six Ruger with LR and WMR cylinders for a short time but was working up in the Northwest at the time so rarely used it. I have shot IPSC matches with the 686 and Model 27 in .357Mag and the Model 29 in .44Mag (with very stout loads as well). I had a go with the club's Ruger Security Six on Saturday and plan to shoot a match next Wednesday with it, but they use lightish .38 loads - factory 9mm in the VP9 is a significant step up in recoil. I do want to get another .22LR revolver for giggles. They reckon they don't have the accuracy for this game, but I'm not interested in winning matches, just having fun and practicing the skills. I also want to get a centrefire revolver in .357, ideally a K or L-frame Smith & Wesson but I'll see what's around. And I'd love a Single Action Army in .44-40 or .45 Colt for blackpowder fun, but if I found one in .38 Special I think I'd be happy shooting black in that. And I'll want some sort of air-pistol I think. Probably not one of these olympic competition styled ones that we've been using but if I find I'm enjoying it more by the time the licence comes up I might be able to find one at a good price.

Damage to my thumb does make me struggle a bit with the colt cylinder release, the S&W is easy as, the Ruger system is between the two.

[bladeracer]

Yep our club dumped vapa years ago some blokes in our club have 460s&w 500s&w and 50ae capable are the anti fun .
That said I'm getting a .45acp to go with my 9mm

The advantage VAPA have to me is that the club is ten minutes from me and two minutes from Rose's brother so it's a nice opportunity to get together several times every week. I have zero interest in the big stuff, I'm having enough pain just shooting air-pistol and Rimfires

My mate, his wife, and 14-year-old son and daughter all shot IPSC with .45ACP 1911's so I shot some matches with those as well. I felt handicapped compared to my 17+1 CZ85 but with the current 10rd mag limit I doubt the capacity difference is even noticeable nowadays. I quite like the 1911 platform and it works well for me so I wouldn't be against getting them in .22LR, 9mm and .45ACP.

[deye243]

Yep our club dumped vapa years ago some blokes in our club have 460s&w 500s&w and 50ae capable are the anti fun .
That said I'm getting a .45acp to go with my 9mm

The advantage VAPA have to me is that the club is ten minutes from me and two minutes from Rose's brother so it's a nice opportunity to get together several times every week. I have zero interest in the big stuff, I'm having enough pain just shooting air-pistol and Rimfires

My mate, his wife, and 14-year-old son and daughter all shot IPSC with .45ACP 1911's so I shot some matches with those as well. I felt handicapped compared to my 17+1 CZ85 but with the current 10rd mag limit I doubt the capacity difference is even noticeable nowadays. I quite like the 1911 platform and it works well for me so I wouldn't be against getting them in .22LR, 9mm and .45ACP.

I like the 1911 as well my 9 is a Springfield armoury ronin great trigger ...... I can't stand the striker pistols .

[alexjones]

Good that you are getting back into pistols. I am to lazy to "run and gun" in ipsc. I much prefer to just stand still and shoot.

The 1911 45acp is the greatest handgun of all time. For striker fired 9x19mm you can't go wrong with glock or sig p320/m18.

Revolvers are also fun especially when you have a lever action rifle in the same calibre.

[bladeracer]

Good that you are getting back into pistols. I am to lazy to "run and gun" in ipsc. I much prefer to just stand still and shoot.

The 1911 45acp is the greatest handgun of all time. For striker fired 9x19mm you can't go wrong with glock or sig p320/m18.

Revolvers are also fun especially when you have a lever action rifle in the same calibre.

I'm not minding the "stand and shoot one handed" but it does feel to me like it's just practicing the basics rather than learning a practical skill.

I have levers in .38, .357 and .44, but the club only has a pistol template so no rifles allowed.

[ob1]

IPSC rimfire? Is it a thing in your location? Sounds like SSAA small pistol?

Consider the need for proven holster training recognition if you go IPSC or SSAA.

Shadow 2 rules the roost in IPSC 9mm production matches at present, with Tanfoglio second. Versatile new Shadow 2 models interchange between slide mounted red dots and iron sights. 22 conversion top ends are available.You can shoot production, production optic, standard, standard optic and open divisions with a Shadow 2.

1911 models are in Classic, mostly, and have appearance limitations to qualify, no red dot use for classic.

[bladeracer]

IPSC rimfire? Is it a thing in your location? Sounds like SSAA small pistol?

Consider the need for proven holster training recognition if you go IPSC or SSAA.

Shadow 2 rules the roost in IPSC 9mm production matches at present, with Tanfoglio second. Versatile new Shadow 2 models interchange between slide mounted red dots and iron sights. 22 conversion top ends are available. You can shoot production, production optic, standard, standard optic and open divisions with a Shadow 2.

1911 models are in Classic, mostly, and have appearance limitations to qualify, no red dot use for classic.

I've never heard of anybody doing rimfire IPSC but I would guess it probably happens somewhere. I think you misunderstood the question. I want an IPSC-suitable pistol, but also want a .22LR version of the same platform for practicing with.

I had the Tanfoglio P19 combat for IPSC, with no mods at all, it did everything I asked of it straight out of the box for thirteen years. That's why I lean toward the CZ75/85. I went with the P19 due to its weight as I was recovering from a very serious wrist injury a few months prior and wanted to mitigate any snappy recoil.

Yeah, I have zero interest in building a firearm only suited to competition use, no optics for me.

[Jorlcrin]

Bladeracer,

I have a 1911-clone in .45ACP, and a Ceiner .22LR conversion to fit it.

My 1911 is a wide-body Para-Ordnance P14-45, with ramped barrel, full-length guide rod and double-stack mag.
Some years back, I had the crap basic sights replaced with adjustable Dawson Precision ones, and a fibre optic front end, for aged eyes.
I believe the 'Limited' version of the P14 had better (Bo-Mar?) sights and an ambi-safety fitted from factory.

The Ceiner conversion works okay, but I've been told the Marvel conversions are better/more reliable.
Pretty sure the Ceiner was the only conversion I could source at the time.

If I was going this path(1911) again, I'd consider a Springfield or Kimber(something a bit better finished) single-stack, and maybe in something like 9mm.
But there are some half-decent lesser brand names around that might be worth looking at..
I know a few people who bought Norinco 1911's in the early 2000's, added a heap of Ed Brown accessories, and some of those are fantastic rigs to shoot.

The Para has been a reliable gun overall, but I dont use it a lot in .45 mode.
I've seen better finished makes and models out there; not sure I'd recommend Para, but cant honestly point to anything downright wrong about them.
I wouldnt buy a double-stack again; too wide in the grip for most people, though my big hands find it okay.
Much harder to find a lot of accessories to fit double-stack these days(Grips etc).
At this stage, the .22LR conversion gets more work than the .45; pokking toads around the homestead yard at night.
Changeover takes maybe a minute, and you replace the whole slide assembly, and swap out the magazine.
Sights on the .22 arent the best but I could likely get a gunsmith to upgrade them if I needed it.

BEST 1911-clone I've seen a was a mates alloy-frame Streyer-Voight 'Infinity' 2011, in .40cal.
Sweetest handgun I've ever shot, with a fantastic crisp trigger.

If I was handy to a gunsmith who worked 1911's, I'd see if I could get a ramped 38/45 barrel, to replace the .45acp.

Getting harder to do this sort of thing in this a day and age..

[bladeracer]

I don't recall ever using the Para-Ordnance double-stacks but they were the big thing when I started IPSC, along with the .38 Super cartridge. I see no value to double-stack now that we have 10rd mag limits, and the single-stack 1911's fit the hand so nicely.

As we can only use handguns to shoot at clubs I doubt I'll pour a pile of money into them. I just want a handful of reliable standard handguns that I can enjoy shooting at the club without trying to win any trophies or anything. Enjoyment will be the determining factor, I'm not going to go to clubs to shoot something I don't particularly like, I'd rather stay home and shoot rifles I do enjoy. As this club doesn't mind shooting centrefires alongside rimfires (rather than shooting two different matches) having two guns (rather than a conversion) would work well for us, one of us can shoot centrefire and the other can shoot rimfire or a revolver, and we'll swap them around from shoot to shoot. They shoot a 50m Rimfire match tomorrow but it seems there is no interest in it so it's not happening this week

The biggest pain about shooting at clubs is that you have to do it when it fits in with the club schedule. Rose never saw me shoot an IPSC match so I want to get to a match soon and show her what that's all about. She enjoys the "Rapid", shooting five targets in four seconds so I'm sure she'll enjoy IPSC. I'll need to get holster certified again before I can shoot IPSC so I need to work that out as well.

Bladeracer,

I have a 1911-clone in .45ACP, and a Ceiner .22LR conversion to fit it.

My 1911 is a wide-body Para-Ordnance P14-45, with ramped barrel, full-length guide rod and double-stack mag.
Some years back, I had the crap basic sights replaced with adjustable Dawson Precision ones, and a fibre optic front end, for aged eyes.
I believe the 'Limited' version of the P14 had better (Bo-Mar?) sights and an ambi-safety fitted from factory.

The Ceiner conversion works okay, but I've been told the Marvel conversions are better/more reliable.
Pretty sure the Ceiner was the only conversion I could source at the time.

If I was going this path(1911) again, I'd consider a Springfield or Kimber(something a bit better finished) single-stack, and maybe in something like 9mm.
But there are some half-decent lesser brand names around that might be worth looking at..
I know a few people who bought Norinco 1911's in the early 2000's, added a heap of Ed Brown accessories, and some of those are fantastic rigs to shoot.

The Para has been a reliable gun overall, but I dont use it a lot in .45 mode.
I've seen better finished makes and models out there; not sure I'd recommend Para, but cant honestly point to anything downright wrong about them.
I wouldnt buy a double-stack again; too wide in the grip for most people, though my big hands find it okay.
Much harder to find a lot of accessories to fit double-stack these days(Grips etc).
At this stage, the .22LR conversion gets more work than the .45; pokking toads around the homestead yard at night.
Changeover takes maybe a minute, and you replace the whole slide assembly, and swap out the magazine.
Sights on the .22 arent the best but I could likely get a gunsmith to upgrade them if I needed it.

BEST 1911-clone I've seen a was a mates alloy-frame Streyer-Voight 'Infinity' 2011, in .40cal.
Sweetest handgun I've ever shot, with a fantastic crisp trigger.

If I was handy to a gunsmith who worked 1911's, I'd see if I could get a ramped 38/45 barrel, to replace the .45acp.

Getting harder to do this sort of thing in this a day and age..