Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

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Re: Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

Post by Lazarus » 19 Feb 2024, 8:08 am

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Re: Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

Post by Oldbloke » 19 Feb 2024, 8:53 am

There was some suggestion in early reports that all vehicles including current vehicles would need to comply with the new STD. (Crazy stuff) But since then it's been clarified that it's only brand new imported vehicles that will be required to comply.
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Re: Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

Post by Lazarus » 19 Feb 2024, 2:55 pm

Oldbloke wrote:There was some suggestion in early reports that all vehicles including current vehicles would need to comply with the new STD. (Crazy stuff) But since then it's been clarified that it's only brand new imported vehicles that will be required to comply.


OK, I had not heard the earlier talk, only that regarding new imports.
There'd be no feasible way they could either buy back or force people to trade anyway.

10 to 1 it was a politician with the original thought bubble
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Re: Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

Post by Larry » 19 Feb 2024, 5:11 pm

I remember protesting V8 till 98 my last car was a 2012 V8 Holden Calais not a 5L but a bigger one ( I never look or pay attention) we have been there before 25 years ago and they still cant persuade the population. To take the Landcrusier or UTE from farmers and moms I just dont see it happening. Not to mention the bogans towing boats and motorcycles. Certainly not loosing any sleep over it.
Yes without our local manufacturing we will be forced to buy what is available loop holes will exist for quite some time.
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Re: Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

Post by Oldbloke » 19 Feb 2024, 5:14 pm

I have no issue with improving economy and emissions of all cars. Just needs to be fairly cost effective.

EV will never be any good for heavy loads such as trucks and towing vans IMO. But perhaps I shouldn't say never. And that's the issue.

For most, i think hybrids are the solution.
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Re: Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

Post by Lazarus » 20 Feb 2024, 6:07 am

Oldbloke wrote:I have no issue with improving economy and emissions of all cars. Just needs to be fairly cost effective.

EV will never be any good for heavy loads such as trucks and towing vans IMO. But perhaps I shouldn't say never. And that's the issue.

For most, i think hybrids are the solution.


Like everything in life OB, it will cost us more for certain, but if the savings over the lifetime of the vehicle is as much or better......

I was initially a keen supporter of EVs, but as they mature the downstream expenses grow silly, not to mention lack of rural facilities not backed up by a diesel genny, and the growth of new ICE possibilities, EVs, meh.
I'll stick with my dinosaur powered V8 Range Rover
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Re: Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

Post by Jorlcrin » 20 Feb 2024, 9:09 am

My take; From an Outback Rural/Agricultural property perspective:-

I cannot see the diesel ute being able to be phased out; much as I expect the environmental crew will try to.

I would very much love to migrate to EV on my small vehicle fleet( at this point - 3 motorbikes, an ATV, and about 10 small Honda engines driving pumps etc).
I see a significant amount of fuel used each year; checking waters, mustering, running pumps, etc etc, which I think could be all done using EV systems.
But there isnt anything off-the-shelf on the market, that would allow me to easily set up an off-grid solar bank and charging station.
Key to that would be a cassette-style battery pack; one which can be swapped out in a matter of minutes.
And a bank of spare cassettes charged up in my charging station, and ready to use.
For small engines, you'd win half the rural people over, if we had a standardized Battery-Pack system that was inter-changeable, and we could purchase scalar solar-powered charging stations.
I can drive up to any diesel bowser, put fuel into my car, and be gone inside 10 minutes.
Cant do the same with EV's or small motors at this point.

Which made me think of the fire season we are just slowly coming out of(in this area at least)..
We often deploy a grader, and sometimes a water truck, to big fires.
We are never likely to convert/migrate our heavy equipment to EV, so diesel will be with us for the foreseeable future.
But, the utility vehicles like the Landcruiser ute and the Hilux, their roles could possibly be addressed by EV's in the future....
...Until I come to the nights where we returned home from fighting a bushfire, spent 20 minutes refueling the grader and the Landcruiser, topped up the petrol in the Firefighter pump, and checked the drip-torch fuel.
After 20 minutes and a quick feed, we are ready to roll out to the next fire, if one starts.
And in bad fire seasons, attending 2 or 3 fires a night isnt uncommon in this country.
So, if it was a bad night of fires, we could easily have 2 or 3 vehicles deployed, and when we return home in our shiney EV utes, we would need to then re-charge the EV's in sequence, because NO-ONE is going to have the charging capability to have fast-charge for multiple vehicles on a rural property.
Very unlikely most rural properties will have a (Grid connected) fast-Charge station at all, so next-quickest charge time is 3-5 hours?
How long will it take to be ready to re-deploy to the next fire if we have EV firefighting vehicles?
My guess is over 24 hours,
And next tranche of Sparkleys will be rolling in about 6 hours before we have everything fully charged.

I LIKE the idea of making my own power/fuel, but it just isnt mature enough yet.
And nothing I'm seeing in development is even close to what would convince me to consider migration to EV.

Which suggests the current fleet of elderly 4WD's and small ICE motors etc we have here, are going to be with us for a very long time into the future.

My 2 cents.
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Re: Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

Post by gunderson » 20 Feb 2024, 11:22 am

Jorlcrin,

I hear ya, thats the sentiment of a lot of rural ppl,

issue with it is for lets say your landcruiser, the best case to compare it to would be a Hummer EV, given the average range/weight/payload... this is a battery pack of around 212 kWh which on solar to charge within a day would need a solar array of around 110 panels. then that power would need to be running through a seriously big inverter and likely a battery system to float the power...

otherwise a regular home solar would take consecutive days to charge the same battery pack...

the sheer cost of the solar array, an EV that stacked with batteries, the payload issues/weight of that EV and the negative effects of everyone wanting to switch to such a system is beyond prohibitive,

even if we talk mains power, one battery of such a size would be an issue, many batteries for many vehicles (large and small) would prove to be an issue, given most rural power cant facilitate anything other than the lowest speed chargers, due to more than just the last pole on your property, but basically almost everything back to the main line. its also not realistic to add that load to existing infrastructure, and a power supply that large would be considerably expensive and you can bet your ass the infrastructure wouldnt get upgraded anytime soon to change any of that.

Even if you did fork out for the solar/wind alternative, these do not last forever (panels around 10 years) and turbines need a lot of maintenance. therefore it would be yet another ongoing cost to the land holder which is not already stacked on the books.

I don't have any faith in EV's replacing farming equipment, especially on broad acre farms.

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Re: Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

Post by on_one_wheel » 20 Feb 2024, 4:43 pm

What we really need is a hard reset.
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Re: Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

Post by gunderson » 20 Feb 2024, 5:01 pm

isnt it interesting if you ask a non partisan question you get the answer, but if you listen to the naysayers and ev enthusiasts you get a mission impossible statement

How much does it cost to produce e-fuel?
By 2030, the production of a liter (roughly a quarter of a gallon) of e-fuel will still cost around $3 or $4, the US-based nonprofit organization forecast in 2020. That's down from about $5 today, according to a study by German energy agency Dena, but still much more than petroleum-based fuels.25 Sept 2023

Whereas the EV pushers over at Drive.com.au (who I think personally have a hardon for reduced vehicle availability and mobility and autonomy) its more like this

This is not the only eFuel factory out there producing synthetic fuel, but while the technology is in its infancy, the applications are limited. Additionally, the cost of producing synthetic fuels is prohibitively high – at least initially. Porsche estimates the eFuel it's developing costs US$10 a litre (AUD$13.75).10 Mar 2022

I know 1 year apart but, it shows how politicized the argument is.

then there is this headline and subtitle

'First e-fuel made from green hydrogen and CO2 is 100 times more expensive than petrol, but costs should plummet'
Industrial-scale production and cheaper direct air capture could reduce costs from €50 per litre today to €1, says German climate institute
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Re: Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

Post by Lazarus » 20 Feb 2024, 5:26 pm

Remember the price of the 1st 486 PC gunderson?
I paid over 2000 1990 dollars for a computer with 64kb of ram and a "massive" 4mb hd.

New tech always has it detractors and naysayers, it's always expensive, my first mobile was a handset on a lead-acid battery the size of a house brick and it cost a kidney to buy and stratospheric call costs.

I'd personally rather pay $5/litre for synthetic than have an electric boondoggle buggy.
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Re: Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

Post by gunderson » 20 Feb 2024, 5:34 pm

yes I had a 486, I remember paying less, considerably less years later for a AMD K6-2 with waaaay more memory and waaaay more compute power and the storage was huge and I could burn and read CD's....

The article discussing the findings of the German Climate Institute says that production cost will be below 1 euro per liter, at present crude based fuels average around .50c euro to produce per liter,

I see massive benefits, everyone has access to some form of renewable energy/cheap energy, as that builds, its not silly to understand that making these fuels using atmospheric CO2 and that stored in waste otherwise meant for the landfill/oceans, means a net carbon/waste reduction as well as better energy/fuel security for any nation that normalizes and institutionalizes these fuels, not to mention, we still produce crude to make synthetics, the fuels from the distillation/production/refinement of Crude products can still be used, but can be substituted with cleaner additives and fuels as a compromise. A very economical compromise.
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Re: Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

Post by Lazarus » 21 Feb 2024, 7:18 pm

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Stupidity is the same
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Re: Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

Post by Die Judicii » 08 Jun 2024, 11:25 pm

Obviously not as quick or efficient as current equipment,,,,,,
But wouldn't it be far simpler (not to mention cheaper and nicer) for all of the world to revert to STEAM power ?
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