Will we keep out Ute's much longer?

[gunderson]

Yes, between 280 and 350ppm, it's currently 418ppm
https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/what-id ... human-life

I have Read some studies on Tropical forests showing they need around 400ppm to 450ppm for expansive growth, with growth stagnation in around the 400ppm or less mark. was based on growth rings of fossilized trees and other petrified wood carbon dated against ice core samples and sediment samples showing the CO2 concentration at the time etc... as well as some experimentation done on living trees etc.

Did this when we were looking at permaculture on the block, ended up down the rabbit hole a bit too far but it was good reading.

[Lazarus]

The trouble with we humans is we are too short lived to get the long term view of normal climate morphology.

We still think within our own lifetimes.

Some reading from people who know whereof they speak.

https://salatainstitute.harvard.edu/har ... l-forests/


https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/what-id ... human-life

[Sarco]

In reality the human life form in all its iterations, in geological terms (and hence in terms of climate), have existed on this planet we call Earth, for literally a blink of an eye.
How can our limited and in some case blinkered view (models designed to prove what whoever designed the model to prove) be considered even remotely accurate.

[gunderson]

The trouble with we humans is we are too short lived to get the long term view of normal climate morphology.

We still think within our own lifetimes.

Some reading from people who know whereof they speak.

https://salatainstitute.harvard.edu/har ... l-forests/


https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/what-id ... human-life

Devils advocate here, a lot of the science appears to be too short lived too, and computer models are only as good as the person doing the data entry, all the assumptions of the past are just that assumptions, without empirical data its literally all completely unverifiable and a best estimate... at best.

so whilst there might be a lot of accuracy in amongst it, its far from pure fact or objective reality. On top of that it really needs to be accepted too that those who build these models and interpret the core samples etc as they do, do so with an agenda or at least a prescribed sense of what outcome they want.

its very hard to be pragmatic and then accept any of it on face value, especially when most of alarmist narratives we have had to live with since the end of ww2 regarding climate have been shown to be pure fiction without needing a degree to see it.

I personally think both sides of the debate are suffering Dunning Kruger and heavy confirmation bias issues.

[Lazarus]

The trouble with we humans is we are too short lived to get the long term view of normal climate morphology.

We still think within our own lifetimes.

Some reading from people who know whereof they speak.

https://salatainstitute.harvard.edu/har ... l-forests/


https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/what-id ... human-life

Devils advocate here, a lot of the science appears to be too short lived too, and computer models are only as good as the person doing the data entry, all the assumptions of the past are just that assumptions, without empirical data its literally all completely unverifiable and a best estimate... at best.

so whilst there might be a lot of accuracy in amongst it, its far from pure fact or objective reality. On top of that it really needs to be accepted too that those who build these models and interpret the core samples etc as they do, do so with an agenda or at least a prescribed sense of what outcome they want.

its very hard to be pragmatic and then accept any of it on face value, especially when most of alarmist narratives we have had to live with since the end of ww2 regarding climate have been shown to be pure fiction without needing a degree to see it.

I personally think both sides of the debate are suffering Dunning Kruger and heavy confirmation bias issues.

We all have our different views on the issue of climate change, I even heard someone comparing it to Y2K.
I'm starting to think of the issue like people sitting on a railway line.
Someone tells them a train is coming and they need to change their position to avoid becoming hamburger.
The people on the line say that they can't see any stinking train, we're not moving.
Minutes pass, now the line sitters can faintly hear the train and are getting small vibrations in the rails, but they refuse to even believe in the train's existence.
The people trying to warn them keep up their efforts, by now the train is clearly audible and the vibration in the rails is becoming uncomfortable.
"Move" pleads the warning group
The response from the sitters:"So what if there is a train coming, it's not my train, I'm not driving it, so I'm staying right here."

I don't care what bizarrely improbable things people choose to believe, whether it's fairies at the bottom of the garden or that the climate is changing or not changing or which 1%er they think might be lusting for office, not for personal power, but just to help them personally. I derive great amusement from that last.

What I do care about is the habit of people thinking that anyone who doesn't share their particular beliefs is at best stupid, at worst, some nefarious plotter.

On the Dunning-Kruger, I definitely agree as far as the layman's perception.
There have been people here trotting out uncaptioned pictures of the ocean to "prove" there is no change.
As to the confirmation bias of trained climate scientists, not so much.
it's the untrained layman and the religious who look only for proof they are right, a good scientist has been schooled to spend as much or more energy trying to disprove a theory as to proving it.

[gunderson]

I find it simple, anything alarmist has every time in the past been proven to be nothing more than hysteria, so I largely ignore alarmist attitudes, I've lurked here a long time and have spent a few years over in southeast Asia, while I was over there, a couple of members on here were arguing with someone in a thread about the plastic waste issue in Asia, there was a forum member literally berating the others saying to them that all the plastic in the ocean/seas and waterways in Asia came from Aussies sending it there...

this is just one anecdote how extreme alarmist ideas get adopted by people, then they get on their high horse, despite being completely and categorically wrong, I refrained from joining the forum back then as I was working full time and didnt have the time I do not to sit here and comment. However, the thing went for paragraphs and I remember thinking to myself, that the member pushing the narrative about the plastic was so assured of himself, yet so completely wrong about the entire issue. Definite Dunning Kruger, and all alarmist ideology is rife with what Trotsky and Lenin would call Useful Idiots regurgitating it with nothing but appeal to authority as their reasoning.

I think the truth exists out there in the midst of a lot of it, I have seen people with and without vested interests on both sides of this topic all showing very convincing data for both sides of the debate, its almost impossible to have any actual evidence for any of it other than what we can observe day by day, so in reality its not something that the regular joe should be made to care about. More would be achieved if people were taught to maintain their own environment around them, that they can see and quantify in their own mind... but in saying that, having been to Asia extensively, there is no point in Aussies being financially burdened with a face paced change over to green tech, when those above us on the globe aren't event thinking about it.

[Lazarus]

So, am I reading it correctly, your saying " Not my train, why should I move?"

Fair enough gunderson, if that's what you believe.

I noticed that the Useful Idiots made an appearance, that's what I was saying above is so disappointing about virtually any discourse now.
Those who don't see the same "light" as someone else is branded, not only foolish, but a blind tool of some 1984-esque plot.

I do see your point though, about the Chinese and the Indians only paying lip service while we at least try, if only feebly, to do something.

[Oldbloke]

Yep, i did 3 work trips to Indonesia. Where I went, plastic waste and waste in general wasn't managed at all. 99% was just washed from the creeks into the sea. I was gob smacked. We are pristine compared to where I went.

Global warming, far too complicated for the lay person to understand. But when many 1000s of climate specialists are saying its coming, it's coming.

The huge population is the elephant in the room.

If India and China don't get their act together our grandchildren will be in deep s**t.

[gunderson]

So, am I reading it correctly, your saying " Not my train, why should I move?"

Fair enough gunderson, if that's what you believe.

I noticed that the Useful Idiots made an appearance, that's what I was saying above is so disappointing about virtually any discourse now.
Those who don't see the same "light" as someone else is branded, not only foolish, but a blind tool of some 1984-esque plot.

I do see your point though, about the Chinese and the Indians only paying lip service while we at least try, if only feebly, to do something.

Its more a matter of committing fiscal suicide for the sake of a situation that is not going to get resolved by doing so.

There is nothing to gain from driving our economy into the ground, even more, for the sake of a global issue that Australia itself contributes literally, a negligible amount to. We haven't even seen the Africans industrialize like Asia has yet either.

Nothing about Australia's fiscal policies or industrial relations laws are making it easier for anything worthwhile to prosper here, Labor just killed our first decent chance at a Space industry, and Tech industry doesn't even start to take place in Australia because wages are too high compared to global competitors and nothing is going to change that with runaway inflation and massive cost of living issues compared to other countries also.

I find your train analogy to be flawed too, you get upset with me labelling uninformed alarmists as useful idiots but then you infer that anyone that doesn't jump to their demands is also one by "not getting off the tracks", Id personally like to see more work in earnest, without special interest groups, zealots on both sides and politics getting in the mix... but that's never going to happen.

Does Australia have a "train"? sure... but its a postie bike compared to even just Indonesia and Malaysia who would be poorly maintained super freighters in comparison, Aussies cop a lot of guilt tripping over the climate, but despite that we have some of the best and cleanest living in the world, its very disingenuous to say otherwise. Our carbon footprint isn't going anywhere soon, most of it is to do with mining, agriculture and transport, with heavy haulage being the biggest culprit, the container ships and tankers that come and go are responsible for more emissions than anything else we do, and they aren't going away with no industry here, we are permanently sewn to importing goods and exporting materials.

To try and go to Zero emissions is never happening, to go to neutral isn't happening, the energy deficit alone is not something that can be replaced. There is one of the worlds major sea freight giants, their fleet if run on all the available biomass turned fuel, on earth, would run for less than 4 months. That is just one company.

solar and wind are great, but they are finite because the technology is, this idea that there is limitless energy is a lie we need to stop telling ourselves.

Given this, I think it is beyond reckless to force a massive change on the population (which is tiny by world standards), at what will be a stupidly hefty cost, for what will be nothing in return. its like not burning your stove to cook dinner, but then your neighbor lights a bonfire with sump oil as a starter for s**ts and giggles.


Additional Thoughts:

Back on the subject of the Cars/Utes etc... We as Aussies are constantly berated about this by media and special interest groupthink pundits, but in reality, the motoring technology we have here, is and always will now be, completely beholden to the Japanese/Euro/American Emissions and Efficiency standards. We do not have a Car industry here, we basically have close to no manufacturing at all here. The pervasive idea that we are somehow responsible for what vehicles are being made and sold is completely ridiculous, Australia is a tiny market in the global community, Nothing is being manufactured to our needs, all auto makers make vehicles that adhere to guidelines where they are made. Labor have spent a lot of time being jerked off by the Greens, and increasingly Liberal and Nationals etc also... and a lot of the recent rhetoric around what vehicles will have to be sold here, is not even close to the reality of what will be made elsewhere that will then be sold here. Much like they aren't even remotely ready for widespread EV adoption, yet basically they sit in their ivory tower demanding people adhere to their impossible standard.

The truth is all of these mandates are going to be rolled back, most countries and manufacturing sectors across the world already have, its not physically, or fiscally possible, and we will be no different.

[Lazarus]

Gunderson, you're suffering from the spotlight effect mate, what some random, anonymous person on the internet says is always far more important to them than to anyone else.

I'm not upset by the useful idiots trope, I just find it disappointing that so many, like your good self, resort to calling those with whom they disagree, "idiots".
It's also ironically amusing that the far right has now coopted a leftist trope.

The rest of your last comment is, sadly, mostly true.

[gunderson]

Gunderson, you're suffering from the spotlight effect mate, what some random, anonymous person on the internet says is always far more important to them than to anyone else.

I'm not upset by the useful idiots trope, I just find it disappointing that so many, like your good self, resort to calling those with whom they disagree, "idiots".
It's also ironically amusing that the far right has now coopted a leftist trope.

The rest of your last comment is, sadly, mostly true.

I'm not name calling however, I am pointing out that ill and misinformed people are being just that regardless of their intentions or volition. Its far from a right Wing trope, it is literally a catch cry from Marxists of the Soviet era so to me not even really a Leftist trope, more a niche Marxist trope.
I don't think that it has been co-opted either, the political landscape we have these days is a new concept that differs even from all the other "empires" etc that we had of old. As a result concepts and behaviors that are a side effect or even tools of more modern political systems and systems of control, have given rise to new actions and reactions as far as human behavior is concerned, because the actions of those affected are just as different as the systems trying to be imposed.
In the old days they would have called "useful idiots" obedient serfs, loyal subjects or some other label to identify those who do not oppose the ruling class or those seeking to rule, the difference with 20th century/21st century politics is that the propaganda machine is/was like nothing that has ever been seen before, leaving masses of uninformed and misinformed people politically charged to follow and behave in a manner as demanded by those seeking to rule.
They're Useful idiots, not because they're so much idiots, but because they choose to follow blindly and often are left cutting off their own nose to spite their face.

This is born of a natural human behavior, an old outdated one, but nevertheless a tried and tested one, Tribalism. We seek factions we seek "teams" to be on. There is a need to be on the "right team" which often supersedes common sense and critical thinking and todays flavor is being on team smug. Everyone wants to be the Virtuous one, in times past this literally didn't matter, only being on the winning side did.

People are so desperate to be "better" than someone else that they will latch on to anything and parade it around as if it were some part of them that others should admire. The overwhelming amount of narcissism and conceit used in the everyday discourse between people, especially those who don't agree, is part of the reason we see masses of emotionally unhinged people berating each other over feelings and beliefs. The self has well and truly become more important than the many and the self is always right..

This is my issue with most of the climate issues, they are completely shrouded in a thick layer of narcissism and conceit by those who perpetuate a lot of "information" on both sides. Special interest groups and people with vested interests all with fragile egos and financial portfolios that they are desperate to perpetuate. Like I said before I don't think there will be information published in my lifetime about the actual climate that isn't pre-loaded with personal interests from those publishing it, whether it be financial, political or otherwise.

Its the refusal of so many that regurgitate these tainted and misleading "findings" that irritate me, its these people who I call useful idiots, the kind of people I can beat in a debate (albeit probably even agreeing with most of what they say) using grade 9 science. They are the disappointment, and by their own actions reveal that they are nothing more than the aforementioned.

[alexjones]

The reason I know that so called "man made climate change" is BS is because the answer the elites give us is to lower peoples standard of living and raise taxes.

Just keep your mouth shut, give up everything and pay more taxes and we will prevent climate change. We won't tell you how just trust us and give us more money.
'
When someone asks for more money to solve a so called "problem" you know it is a scam.

[gunderson]

Whilst I don't subscribe to any theory, conspiracy or otherwise, without some verifiable data and clearly connected evidentiary proof. There is a clear and concise correlation between these alarmist issues, governmental tax and revenue raising and close to zero net results or in a lot of cases, no net results at all.

Australia needs to stop participating in Austerity measures that are used elsewhere for far more industrialized and far more populated places like Europe/Asia/USA etc, The average small business is being crushed by the weight of taxes, levies, restrictions and red tape that ought not apply in our sparce 27 million population. Big Business just leaves our shores and takes the jobs with them. We have based our entire economy on mineral resource, which is stupid as hell, all economies that do so collapse and ours will be no different. We are being squeezed into an increasingly expensive world whilst our ability to make an income is fast becoming too hampered to even think of keeping up with the cost of living increases.

I can see how Alex would think we are headed in that way intentionally, it certainly seems that the Government wants us to be in this precarious situation. After all its their successive failures one after the next, with each term that has landed us in the position we are in. Definitely seems like a concerted effort when these people elected to represent our needs and interests constantly work directly against us in favor of global policies and global bullying. Meanwhile the real disaster artists are out there ignoring all the same pressures.

[Lazarus]

Gunderson, you're suffering from the spotlight effect mate, what some random, anonymous person on the internet says is always far more important to them than to anyone else.

I'm not upset by the useful idiots trope, I just find it disappointing that so many, like your good self, resort to calling those with whom they disagree, "idiots".
It's also ironically amusing that the far right has now coopted a leftist trope.

The rest of your last comment is, sadly, mostly true.

I'm not name calling however, I am pointing out that ill and misinformed people are being just that regardless of their intentions or volition. Its far from a right Wing trope, it is literally a catch cry from Marxists of the Soviet era so to me not even really a Leftist trope, more a niche Marxist trope.
I don't think that it has been co-opted either, the political landscape we have these days is a new concept that differs even from all the other "empires" etc that we had of old. As a result concepts and behaviors that are a side effect or even tools of more modern political systems and systems of control, have given rise to new actions and reactions as far as human behavior is concerned, because the actions of those affected are just as different as the systems trying to be imposed.
In the old days they would have called "useful idiots" obedient serfs, loyal subjects or some other label to identify those who do not oppose the ruling class or those seeking to rule, the difference with 20th century/21st century politics is that the propaganda machine is/was like nothing that has ever been seen before, leaving masses of uninformed and misinformed people politically charged to follow and behave in a manner as demanded by those seeking to rule.
They're Useful idiots, not because they're so much idiots, but because they choose to follow blindly and often are left cutting off their own nose to spite their face.

This is born of a natural human behavior, an old outdated one, but nevertheless a tried and tested one, Tribalism. We seek factions we seek "teams" to be on. There is a need to be on the "right team" which often supersedes common sense and critical thinking and todays flavor is being on team smug. Everyone wants to be the Virtuous one, in times past this literally didn't matter, only being on the winning side did.

People are so desperate to be "better" than someone else that they will latch on to anything and parade it around as if it were some part of them that others should admire. The overwhelming amount of narcissism and conceit used in the everyday discourse between people, especially those who don't agree, is part of the reason we see masses of emotionally unhinged people berating each other over feelings and beliefs. The self has well and truly become more important than the many and the self is always right..

This is my issue with most of the climate issues, they are completely shrouded in a thick layer of narcissism and conceit by those who perpetuate a lot of "information" on both sides. Special interest groups and people with vested interests all with fragile egos and financial portfolios that they are desperate to perpetuate. Like I said before I don't think there will be information published in my lifetime about the actual climate that isn't pre-loaded with personal interests from those publishing it, whether it be financial, political or otherwise.

Its the refusal of so many that regurgitate these tainted and misleading "findings" that irritate me, its these people who I call useful idiots, the kind of people I can beat in a debate (albeit probably even agreeing with most of what they say) using grade 9 science. They are the disappointment, and by their own actions reveal that they are nothing more than the aforementioned.

One more try, the useful idiots trope is used far more by the far right than anyone else. Fact.
Just like violence is used far more by the far right, another fact.

https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoin ... -the-left/

I'm not trying to convince you of anything gunderson, nor do your opinions "upset" me, I don't care enough about either to be upset.

[gunderson]

I wouldn't be convinced about that, it was used extensively by the left in the early Marxist days. Violence, are we talking institutional use of violence or radicals using violence for niche causes? Its pretty much a blatant lie to say that the left (socialist/communist especially) haven't used as much if not more violence than others. At this point in the game we might as well not talk back beyond the 1780s since that is where the concept comes from. There is literally over 100 million people or likely more killed by socialist/communist groups in the 20th century alone, and that's subtracting the starvation and destitution from socialist/communist policy.

The only right wing violence the world sees now is largely theocratic from the Islamic world.

as for the article, I have a relative in Kenosha Wisconsin, they will vehemently disagree with you and the article in most points, they were there during the riots where left wing interest groups were literally bussed in to cause havoc and threaten the lives and businesses of locals all for what can only be guessed as an intentional effort to cause social upheaval, a typical left wing move.

In saying that I am a firm Centrist, and don't believe far right or far left groups should be allowed to propagate and proliferate. But to say that Left wing governments, societies and interest groups and activists are not violent is plainly misleading and a complete lie. In many ways left wing groups are the most extreme authoritarians that have existed in modern times, and extreme authoritarians need extreme monopolies on violence, it really only ever goes one way.

[alexjones]

I don't see how commies are left and NAZI are right when if you replace their boogie man they are essentially the same ideology? They both want state control over everything and for the individual to not exist. One just blames Jews and is focused on race whilst the other blames capitalists and is focused on class. It is the same side of one coin.

I do however hate the left but I feel that they are in a way necessary to maintain a balance from so called extremes. The more society shifts to the left(as an example) the right than becomes the "counter culture" and vise versa. Human behaviour generally wants what it can't have.

Iran is a good example. The people whilst generally "conservative" in value are not Islamic ideologues like their government is. There is so much simmering under the surface which is why they government is executing people en masse to maintain order.

[gunderson]

well Iran is under Islamic Occupation, has been since 1978

[Lazarus]

https://lagradaonline.com/en/next-gener ... s-cummins/

[gunderson]

Hydrogen is a joke, the sheer volume of energy required to make it, the sheer amount of over engineering to maintain it as a gas in a pressure vessel, especially to keep it stored safely, it really is a stupid thing to try and use.

Hydrogen is the smallest element on the table, as such any other element or molecule is larger, so therefore any material we try to make to contain it, will have gaps and holes big enough for Hydrogen to leech out of. This is exactly what happened in the mid 2000s when BMW built their Hydrogen powered 7 Series, they literally had to install vents out of the rear of the roof so that a dangerous explosive amount of Hydrogen didn't build up in the tank and in the car. The car could not be parked anywhere for very long either without the tank just emptying itself in around 10 days. the economy was woeful, around 50L/100km vs the 13L/100 out of the equivalent petrol engine.

Hydrogen is best stored COLD and I mean really cold, below −253 °C at least. This takes energy to do, as it needs to be refrigerated to do so and considering that absolute zero is −273.15* that should indicate how difficult that can be when even liquid nitrogen boils at -195.8 °C.

Hydrogen is a very energy intensive gas to create. for example, current best processes for water electrolysis have an effective electrical efficiency of 70-80%, so that producing 1 kg of hydrogen (which has a specific energy of 143 MJ/kg or about 40 kWh/kg) requires 50–55 kWh of electricity. Whilst Petrol already delivers us around 13.1 kWh/kg without any of the storage and production woes of Hydrogen. Not to mention that when you factor in that the Petrol engine gives 13L/100km economy and the Hydrogen one is producing less power and using 50L/100km it should come as no surprise that the Hydrogen vehicle has substantially less range also.

Transporting Hydrogen long distances is highly problematic, given some places in Australia would take 2-3 days of travel in very hot conditions most of the year, we could make a best estimate that its plausible that 20-30% of the hydrogen that left its point of origin would be gone, and that once it gets where it is going, if not used, would probably be evaporated within another 7 to 10 days.

Couple all this with there basically being 0 feasible infrastructure to use with Hydrogen anywhere in the country albeit having a few in some cities (very few), its not even worth the time and effort to roll it out, for what is a very fickle fuel source.

[Oldbloke]

Petrol has to go.

Diesel has to go.

LPG has to go.

LNG has to go.

Some don't like EVs.

Some don't like Hydrogen.

Well, the answer is.............

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Horse and cart, push bike or walk. Problem solved.

[gunderson]

Petrol has to go.

Diesel has to go.

LPG has to go.

LNG has to go

all of these come from extracting oil we use to make textiles, tyres, plastics, polymers, and many many other things. they are literally exhausted from the wells or distilled off later, there is no oil extraction for literally everything else without making these and kerosine etc on top of it.

Some don't like EVs.

Its not a matter of like or don't like, EV's can not be used for trains, trucks, long distance travel across low pop areas, they're expensive, taxing on the environment all the same, Cant be used for air travel, cant replace shipping. EV's have one place, the city......

Some don't like Hydrogen.

Hydrogen isn't feasible, its waaaay too expensive to make, impossible to store long term, any kind of storage is energy exhaustive, Hydrogen burns really hot, and makes f*** tons of NOx emissions (the reason they want to completely ban diesel), Hydrogen per Liter of Gas is not energy dense compared to atomized Petrol/diesel or LPG gas. Hydrogen is not efficient.



its not that anyone likes or dislikes the newer tech, its that its validity is steeply limited to very specific places and circumstances.

[Oldbloke]

Well, when I said "some don't like" I was really saying, too expensive, too dirty or not practical, etc etc.

But horses, walking and bikes will work.

It's a joke. What ever happens some won't be happy.

IMO, to get the atmosphere the same as it was pre-industial age, we will need to slash the population and live like they did.

Technology is amazing but not good enough yet.

[gunderson]

population alone means the atmosphere will never be what it was before, humans require a lot of resource and that equals a lot of land use regardless of technology.

[Peterwho]

Gunderson

What an absolute delight to see you have joined and adding to the debate. Im enjoying your style, adding facts and financial common sense. Please stay safe and dont let them find you. They will consider you a bad robot and send you back for reprogramming.

Moving on from the levity, i can recommend a book, The Moral Case for Fossil Fuel. Whilst a little dated in parts, it does a great job setting out the extraordinary hypocrisy of the scare mongers on the other side of the debate.

Peter

[Oldbloke]

Bit more info.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/strict-ve ... a-euro-6d/

[gunderson]

See now what the government of Australia doesn't realize is, by killing off our industries we are now stuck married to these foreign standards that don't and wont work here. Most the new emissions standards make the old ones look weak, and the old ones have been failed by Cummins, VW, Nissan and Renault as well as now Toyota, these are the biggest motor companies in the world, with the most tech/rnd budgets, and they cant meet the standards...

the fact is, to move a certain mass requires a certain amount of energy, this ideological nonsense where you can move the same mass and burn substantially less is in every way flawed, a 1% increase in efficiency in ICE engines is considered a massive leap. you cannot burn less fuel and get the same mass to move, hell even EGR systems artificially create this by reducing optimal burn in engines to try and avoid NOx and instead just result in a lower power burn that costs efficiency of power creation long term and short term.

there are lots of needs of people like trades, services, logistics, etc that are never going to be able to adhere to these increasing demands from these foreign interests. Australia's Government present and past should be deeply ashamed.

[wanneroo]

See now what the government of Australia doesn't realize is, by killing off our industries we are now stuck married to these foreign standards that don't and wont work here. Most the new emissions standards make the old ones look weak, and the old ones have been failed by Cummins, VW, Nissan and Renault as well as now Toyota, these are the biggest motor companies in the world, with the most tech/rnd budgets, and they cant meet the standards...

the fact is, to move a certain mass requires a certain amount of energy, this ideological nonsense where you can move the same mass and burn substantially less is in every way flawed, a 1% increase in efficiency in ICE engines is considered a massive leap. you cannot burn less fuel and get the same mass to move, hell even EGR systems artificially create this by reducing optimal burn in engines to try and avoid NOx and instead just result in a lower power burn that costs efficiency of power creation long term and short term.

there are lots of needs of people like trades, services, logistics, etc that are never going to be able to adhere to these increasing demands from these foreign interests. Australia's Government present and past should be deeply ashamed.

The whole idea behind those intense standards is to get ICE cars off the road.

But we can see now the math behind widespread adoption of battery EVs is not workable at all.

[gunderson]

Widespread EV adoption was never going to happen, even in urban areas.

[Lazarus]

I don't see how commies are left and NAZI are right when if you replace their boogie man they are essentially the same ideology? They both want state control over everything and for the individual to not exist. One just blames Jews and is focused on race whilst the other blames capitalists and is focused on class. It is the same side of one coin.

I do however hate the left but I feel that they are in a way necessary to maintain a balance from so called extremes. The more society shifts to the left(as an example) the right than becomes the "counter culture" and vise versa. Human behaviour generally wants what it can't have.

Iran is a good example. The people whilst generally "conservative" in value are not Islamic ideologues like their government is. There is so much simmering under the surface which is why they government is executing people en masse to maintain order.

Left and right are just arbitrary descriptors for political polarisation alexjones.

It could just as easily be black and white, or up and down.

The declaration that you "hate the left" is somewhat moot, given your chosen user name, don't you think?

I do feel the need to ask, why the "hatred" for those who believe in a different political ideology?
Do you feel that they should hate you for your beliefs?

Do you not see that your hatred is simply a tool of the 1%.
They stir the easily led with right leanings and the easily led with left leanings to hate each other, and reap the rewards of the subsequent division.

Three people in America own more wealth than the bottom 50% of the population.

The world's ten richest men more than doubled their fortunes from $700 billion to $1.5 trillion —at a rate of $15,000 per second or $1.3 billion a day— during the first two years of a pandemic that has seen the incomes of 99 percent of humanity fall and over 160 million more people forced into poverty.

We are ALL just gravel on their road, mate.

Don't drink their flavor-aid

[gunderson]

But Flavor-aid is the best tasting aids...

The partisan ideology is undeniably, divisive, That is its entire purpose.

The Mongs on both sides fuel it and as Lazarus said, the 1% steer it...

until people get fed up with being lied to and stop being "true believers" in their favorite political groups/factions, the situation will never change.

Personally I find Labor supporters the most insufferable, they are some of the most belligerent people I have ever encountered in political conversation, they have a million excuses for their favorite factions failures and when presented with the exact same kind of excuses from the other side they are outraged that anyone would try and make excuses etc etc.

The truth is all large parties and small parties alike do dodgy deals, have cronies, have corporate overlords, are pimped out to lobbyists and the likes. all of them ignore their constituents, vote constantly in favor of foreign interests more than aussie ones etc etc, without a proper overhaul we are doomed to circle the drain