Opinions on this 4WD roll over

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Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Wes » 02 Nov 2016, 12:48 pm

Don't want to start a thread bashing the driver here like is happening on YouYube, just want to discuss the technical aspects of what wen't wrong.

See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R02eDCWG_cE

I know we only have a limited view of the terrain, and there is a bit of guesswork here but it looks to me like he's probably near the rev limit in low-second.

From what I see trying to do it fast resulted/allowed the front to come way up and turn him sidewards, resulting in the roll.

Where if he had been in low-first stuck more to the middle of the rev range he would have crawled up, slowly but relatively safely, as clearance and tyres don't appear to be an issue at all.

Anyone else read anything different happening in this?
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Lorgar » 02 Nov 2016, 1:01 pm

First and foremost, doing it WAY too fast.

One thing aside form that which leaps out at me, it looks to me like he's possibly running road pressures in the tyres.

Watch the tyres as he reaches the tops, bounces and settles, they hardly bulge at all when he comes down on them.

This is a screenshot where he is almost at a complete stop, and the left wheel is on a bit of pointed terrain. Look at the sidewalls, they're almost dead straight.

road-pressures-off-road.jpg
road-pressures-off-road.jpg (21.15 KiB) Viewed 7648 times


I run my A/T's at 40psi on the road and they bulge more than that when all four wheels are on the flat and the truck is empty(ish). He's got two in the air and is on a point and even then they're not giving anything.

I guess he's running something similar? More? Who knows.

If I was going through an area with anything like that I'd have dropped the tyres to 25psi and would have done that hill at 1/3rd the speed. Low-range 1st for sure.

Just wrong everything going on in that film.
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by brett1868 » 02 Nov 2016, 1:18 pm

Reading through the comments and I see a mention of stalled engine and broken CV. Stalled engine would impact braking ability and the broken CV effectively screws any movement even if the engine got restarted.
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Oldbloke » 02 Nov 2016, 1:37 pm

In too much of a hurry. Bouncing all over the place losing control.
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Gwion » 02 Nov 2016, 2:01 pm

FUBAR! :O
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 02 Nov 2016, 4:13 pm

The track was steep as F^$@.
As soon as the forby was side on to the incline..... he was a goner.
Moral of the story, keep it as straight as possible, point UP the hill, or down as the case may be (and perhaps a few off roading lessons)
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by AusTac » 02 Nov 2016, 4:43 pm

Waaay to quick and at a guess wrong range/gear the tyre pressures were too high and he generally tried that track like a redneck idiot

That was a low range rear locker slow and steady/ do we really need to do this kinda track

As just starting said, once he was crossed up, what that attitude, and such a loose set up without running a winch line, there wasn't much chance of getting out of that with one rig on the hill even if he did a cv, he'll still have at least 2 good rear wheels and the ability to steer
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Oldbloke » 02 Nov 2016, 8:45 pm

"That was a low range rear locker slow and steady/ do we really need to do this kinda track "

Yep, why even try it? I have seen heaps of smashed glass, body parts etc up track I would never attempt to drive. Some people just look for trouble in the name of fun.
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Oldbloke » 02 Nov 2016, 9:56 pm

Yep, if you do it slow all 4 wheels remain in contact longer, so better control and you have time to react if you need to. Not convinced in this case that lower tyre pressure would help much.
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by brett1868 » 02 Nov 2016, 10:24 pm

I was thinking that you lower the tyre pressure when on sand or a very soft surface to increase the contact patch to spread the weight over more area so you don't bog down. Either way, he's done a public service to motorcyclists by keeping the oil leaks off the road :)
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by AusTac » 03 Nov 2016, 6:38 am

bentaz wrote:I am in no way claiming to know stuff about 4x4ing, but that said i did a drivers course in the army and we drove up hills like that in land rovers n unimogs, no tyre pressure changes from what we did on the roads, just put em in low 4 and crawled up slowly.


Mogs and 110's go anywhere because they have the gearing for it, if i had the cash id have a mog in my driveway :p
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Lorgar » 04 Nov 2016, 3:17 pm

bentaz wrote:I am in no way claiming to know stuff about 4x4ing, but that said i did a drivers course in the army and we drove up hills like that in land rovers n unimogs, no tyre pressure changes from what we did on the roads, just put em in low 4 and crawled up slowly.


I suppose in a military setting it's not practical to be lowering/raising tyre pressures to what's ideal for a given situation. You need a one-pressure-suits all type setup so you can tackle anything that gets thrown at you as it happens.

And if someone who wants to shoot you is possibly lurking over the next hill you're not going to have everyone pull over for 10 minutes to start dicking around with their tyres :lol:

In a recreational setting though there is nothing to lose by spending a few minutes on your tyres, it takes 5-10 minutes at the beginning and end of each trip and you've only got safety and an improved drive to be gained.

Especially if doing hills like that...
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Lorgar » 04 Nov 2016, 3:24 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Not convinced in this case that lower tyre pressure would help much.


Not as the speed he was going, no. He'd have been bouncing around regardless.

At about the 35 second mark both front wheels are up in the air and it looks like (a bit obscured, hard to tell) that his rear right wheel comes off the ground for an instant too. Nothing is going to save you when you've only got 1 wheel contacting the ground.

As per OPs requests for peoples read on the situation, it appears to me from the video he is running excessively high pressures for the situation.

We all agree that needed to be done far slower, and more appropriate tyre pressure would have only helped in ascending the hill safely.
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Lorgar » 04 Nov 2016, 3:25 pm

brett1868 wrote:I was thinking that you lower the tyre pressure when on sand or a very soft surface to increase the contact patch to spread the weight over more area so you don't bog down.


True, also advantageous on rocky/mixed terrain like that.

Tyres mould over rocks more for better grip, and less chance of a puncture with the lower pressure.

And as you mentioned larger contact patch, has the same advantage on loose dirt and gravel patches on inclines/declines.
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Lorgar » 04 Nov 2016, 3:57 pm

AusTac wrote:Mogs and 110's go anywhere because they have the gearing for it, if i had the cash id have a mog in my driveway :p


You couldn't say gearing was at fault here though.

If he'd gone slower he almost certainly wouldn't have ended up rotated at the angle he did, putting him in the position to roll over.

After he was stopped, he rolls back a few inches, then another little creep, then another few inches, then on the last one he goes an inch, teeters and rolls. Sitting still while you worked out the plan would have been the first thing. It wouldn't have been my first choice but get the handbrake on for a hill-start instead of edging back over and over.

Even better, he's got a winch, he should have had someone run that out first thing to at least anchor himself so he can't go backwards, then straighten himself up and recover.

Too gung-ho to get up the hill, then when he was in trouble too gung-ho to just power out of it.

A lot of things should have been done different if he really had to get up that hill.

I'm not bashing up on the guy, just looking at it analytically.
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Gwion » 04 Nov 2016, 4:21 pm

Poor bastard screwed up big time and you can be pretty sure he won't do it again (if he survived!!!)!
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by sandgroperbill » 06 Nov 2016, 2:01 pm

That track didn't look overly challenging. 4L and crawl up.

His only actions and solutions were foot to the floor.

Wasn't there a thread recently regarding people being unaware of low range?
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Chronos » 06 Nov 2016, 3:05 pm

Rank amateur driver here too but in my opinion some momentum helps in some situations (sand dunes in particular) but a heap of revs and a wheel off the ground is bound th break CV's or diffs.

The real cause here though is putting the vehicle across the hill where the centre of balance height is the same but the wheelbase is halved. When I was watching it I was focused on the steering wheels. When the engine stalled he was is the process of turning uphill, putting extra load on the engine trying to push wheels at 45deg to the direction of drive.

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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by snag » 06 Nov 2016, 10:14 pm

3 words - Too. Much. Speed.
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Blackened » 07 Nov 2016, 8:45 am

sandgroperbill wrote:Wasn't there a thread recently regarding people being unaware of low range?


Using low-range gears is obviously a mystery to many people
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by colsta » 14 Nov 2016, 8:13 pm

By the looks of the video A he was trying a bit to hard . B should stopped and not rolled back C used the winch on the front but i have been there and done stupid things. Peer pressure could of been part of it or he thought this will look mad on the video
On a big car like that yes you need a little momentum but not that much yes the tyre pressures look a little high but each to there own i normally ran my tyre pressures at about 15 - 20 psi when i go offroad makes it a lot easier doing climbs like that unless i'm running beadlocked rims i ran 10psi the lower the pressure the better the traction just a pain in the ass when its time to go home to pump them back up lol
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Wes » 15 Nov 2016, 12:52 pm

colsta wrote:but i have been there and done stupid things


Asking to avoid doing more than my share :lol:
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by agentzero » 04 Dec 2016, 4:11 pm

colsta wrote:just a pain in the ass when its time to go home to pump them back up lol


Less of a pain than having to flip your truck the right way up at the end of the day :silent:
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Flash » 12 Aug 2017, 5:16 pm

I know this track. It's Deep Creek #4, Walhalla Area. We've done this track a few times.

Lorgar wrote:One thing aside form that which leaps out at me, it looks to me like he's possibly running road pressures in the tyres.
Watch the tyres as he reaches the tops, bounces and settles, they hardly bulge at all when he comes down on them.
This is a screenshot where he is almost at a complete stop, and the left wheel is on a bit of pointed terrain. Look at the sidewalls, they're almost dead straight.


That section was really steep. We ran 16psi up there. Front tyres in vid have no weight on them so look higher pressure. I can tell by the tread, he has Symex tyres. People who bother to buy Symex know about pressures. That track also needed momentum, low first wasn't enough. I was in second/third (moist conditions).

For whoever said the track doesn't look overly challenging, video never shows steepness. The best way to gauge steepness is looking for how soft and bouncy the front end is. If it looks like it's bouncing on a pillow, the track is steep. The video gives a false perception.

There were a couple of things wrong. You could hear him trying to restart the engine after a stall, and he allowed the car to roll back while trying to restart it. Also, the spotter should have let him know the danger. Clearly, his back right dropped into a hole causing the roll backward.

They've blocked that particular section now. The last time we went (2016), there had been a side track cut and that section was completely blocked and you could barely see it.

Interestingly, the time previous we went while it was still open, we had to navigate around the film crew from one of the magazines who were filming.
They waste a hell of a lot of time with the crew setting up shots for filming.
We got ahead, stopped and watched them for while.
FYI, modern traction control takes a lot of the challenge out of 4WD'ing.

It's sad they demolished that section on DC#4. It was quite challenging in the wet and even in the dry, being such a loose surface, meant it was challenging.

The last time, after they'd blocked and modified, I reckon you could get through with an AWD.

Similarly Deep Creek #1. The last time we went, they'd put a grader through. The rock step at the exit was non-existent, and the off-camber climb up the hill had also been ruined.
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Lorgar » 12 Aug 2017, 9:54 pm

Flash wrote:That section was really steep. We ran 16psi up there. Front tyres in vid have no weight on them so look higher pressure. I can tell by the tread, he has Symex tyres. People who bother to buy Symex know about pressures. That track also needed momentum, low first wasn't enough. I was in second/third (moist conditions).


The front tyres most certainly had weight on them when they came slamming down after the front end was off the ground. I did reference that specifically in my reply/opinion.

I've gotta say too, mate, your "people who bother to buy Symex know about pressures" comment is just nonsense.

That's like saying people who buy Ferraris are all F1 drivers. They're not. The plethora of "idiot supercar driver" videos on YouTube can attest to that.

People buy things they have no idea about, we both know this. I'm not attacking the guy in the video here, I'm saying in general.

He could have bought them because they looked tough, because he read a review, because the guy at the shop or a mate told him too, or just because he likes splashing money around and thinks having top line gadgets makes him an expert. Having good gear doesn't automatically make you informed or experienced.

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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by goldiexxxx » 20 Aug 2017, 1:06 am

I don't see speed, gear choice or tyre pressures as the cause of the roll over. Sure those could have contributed to him coming to an abrupt stop on a steep hill, or he could of had some type of breakage too. Once he was stopped though, he had all the opportunity to fix his situation by rolling out that winch, chocking the wheels etc. Instead he chose to take his foot off the brake and roll backwards tipping the vehicle over.
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Dunxy » 20 Aug 2017, 2:31 pm

Multiple things.

Tyre pressure not optimum but not a "deal breaker"!

Looks to me he started the climb in the wrong gear,possibly even high range?

Why did he have so much trouble re-starting? Seemed like an auto? If an auto a hillstart like this should be a cakewalk!No offence, but if i didn't know my 4wd started first time every time i would not be doing proper offroading with it! Yes I know not everybody can have a brand new car, doesn't matter! My last 4wd was close to 30 years old and had 430,***k+ on the dial, still started first time, every time!

Last and major failure, allowing it to roll backwards and turning the wheel.Obviously not versed in what to do in this kind of situation which makes me think hes either very inexperienced or somebody who thinks they are actually better than they are OR possibly believe their vehicle is a lot more capable than it is.
Ive tackled hills like that with road pressures while running the horrendously bad factory AT's (at least 3 times i had to use 4wd to pull of wet nature strips, no im am not joking or exaggerating,they were that bad! Even just using rear locker did not help these times,had to get out and lock hubs)that came on my cruiser from factory. I do have front and rear lockers, which without I would not have had a chance at doing anything on the stock rubber, let alone aggressive hill climbs.
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Daddybang » 21 Aug 2017, 7:41 am

Lorgar wrote:I suppose in a military setting it's not practical to be lowering/raising tyre pressures to what's ideal for a given situation. You need a one-pressure-suits all type setup so you can tackle anything that gets thrown at you as it happens.

And if someone who wants to shoot you is possibly lurking over the next hill you're not going to have everyone pull over for 10 minutes to start dicking around with their tyres :lol:

In a recreational setting though there is nothing to lose by spending a few minutes on your tyres, it takes 5-10 minutes at the beginning and end of each trip and you've only got safety and an improved drive to be gained.

Especially if doing hills like that...


Strange the modern military vehicle's don't have the system to raise/lower the tyre pressure from the cab. I drove ww2 era dukws for a nature park up in kuranda for several years and they all have it. :thumbsup:
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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by Gaznazdiak » 25 Sep 2017, 8:51 am

No cure for stupidity except taking the safety warnings off everything and letting nature take it's course, going too fast in an improperly condigured vehicle.

A slight digression but still 4x4, don't ever let anyone tell you the dinky little Suzuki buzz box 4x4s aren't any good, see below.

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Re: Opinions on this 4WD roll over

Post by bigfellascott » 25 Sep 2017, 9:13 am

Has a winch and doesn't use it - all the gear and no idea!
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