Handheld UHF radio watts and range

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Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by puffnstuff » 25 Nov 2016, 1:34 pm

I want to better understand handheld UHF radio watts and what they means for range in practical terms.

I don't know how much it matters between brands but in the interest of keeping comparisons as apples-to-apples as they can be I'll give a few examples of GME radio range as I'm a bit familiar with them.

They do 1w, 2w, 3w, 4w and 5w hand helds.

Prices are pretty linear with that too. Their 1w is a bit under $100 and the 5w is a bit under $500. (With a few features line scanning and water resistance chucked in)

The 1w claims 7km range on the box, the others don't actually mention anything. (I have read in a few places the range for a 5w is supposed to be about 20km)

All the brands talk up the extra range of the higher watt units as the reason for buying one, but they're equally quick to start talking about breaking line of sight, being blocked by a hill etc. blocking the signal.

Seems to me you can't actually ever use even the 7km range that a 1 watt will deliver, forget the 5w range which you're paying 5 times the cash for.

Even if you were standing in the middle of a perfectly flat desert, someone 7km away would be over the horizon and out of line of sight. The only way you're even going to manage to be 20km away from someone with line of sight, or even 7km, is being in the same flat desert with one of you high in a tower to get over the horizon.

And none of us are ever going to do that.

I get that for a proper broadcasting facility wattage will make a huge difference when you've got a whopping big 30m antenna on the top of a building, but in handhelds the whole watts thing just seems like a bit of a marketing scam to me. On paper at least.

So tell me.
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by albat » 25 Nov 2016, 4:55 pm

http://www.auscb.com/apps/webstore/ i have one of these best value 5w handheld in australia i reckon, can get different accessories like bigger antenna spare batterries ear piece for hunting had mine for 2 years and use it a lot out hunting in the bush my mate as one too built like a tank and at 99 dollars it takes the price argument out the equation dont waste your cash on the others these are just as good as the better known brands as i have a gme 5w also.range? So many variables i think, i have the big antenna for mine as an extra which i use in the car sat between the seats in the cup holder doubles as a car uhf often get 5 kilometres around the burbs good for a handhed sat in the car
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by doc » 25 Nov 2016, 6:25 pm

You've got it right. Line of sight is far more important than wattage. I have communicated 200kms with a 5w UHF. The other end was on top of a mountain...

As for broadcasting wattage - it helps a little, but even then - it's far more effective to have line of site over power - every single time.

You can talk to the international space station on 1w (or so my HAM friends tell me), yet a FM transmitter with killowats of power won't get hundreds of kms past the horizon line.

There are exceptions. Apparently the lower the frequency the more 'ground signal' you can get. (I'm told that's why AM radio in the Khz range gets further tham FM radio in the Mhz range), or of course HF frequencies which can 'bounce' around the globe.

It comes down to what you are planning on using it for at the end of the day. If I was going camping in dense environment I'd go for the extra power, as the horizon wouldn't be the issue - the bush would - and that extra power could be helpful cutting through that. But in my opinion in most situations a 5w radio isn't going to give you 5 times the range or value of a a 1w one.

Check out aurfscan.com.au - it's a forum based solely for radio talk from commercially available UHF's like you've mentioned right through to enthusiasts, and has some good information.
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by yoshie » 25 Nov 2016, 6:38 pm

I started with a cheap 1.5w from Jaycar to keep in touch with my hunting party, i never really had a problem as we were never really 5 kms apart, but eventually went to a 5w GME and couldn't really tell the different in practical terms, i seemed to pick up more cross chatter from logging operations and other hunters. The country we were hunting was fairly steep in southern NSW and NE VIC around the border
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by pete1 » 25 Nov 2016, 7:05 pm

I have $160 (at repco) 5 watt Oricom works fantastic and i'd say 20km would be about right i've never measured mine.

Radio waves will go over hills and I have found 1 watt to only do a few hundred metres to a 1km in the end the more you sped the better it should be but it depends what you need.
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by Lorgar » 28 Nov 2016, 10:48 am

yoshie wrote:I started with a cheap 1.5w from Jaycar to keep in touch with my hunting party, i never really had a problem as we were never really 5 kms apart, but eventually went to a 5w GME and couldn't really tell the different in practical terms.


I've found much the same.

I have a 5W mounted in the truck and a 3W GME hand held. Really I only bought the 3 watt as the unit it self was a lot more tougher and boasted some water/dust proofing which the lower ones didn't.

It's not a quite a fair comparison in terms of Watt vs Watt as the mounted unit is being pushed through a 3ft 6db antenna which the handheld obviously isn't. Anyway...

I mostly use mine for staying in communication in 4WD convoys and off roading. Off road never had a problem typically no one would be more than a few hundred metres apart.

The only situation I've noticed a tangible difference is on the tarmac where you can get stretched further apart by traffic, when someone has had my 3W in their truck. If you're having undulating roads cutting you off as you get further apart there is a little window where the 5W will pick up the 3W transmitting, but the person with the 3W can't hear me.

Only talking distances of up to maybe a KM when I've experienced this, and I'm chalking the effect mostly up to the antenna of the fixed unit rather than lack of transmission power from the handheld.

Having the mounted unit in the car, and even if I didn't probably, I don't see myself ever paying 2x the price or more for a 5w handheld.
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by happyhunter » 29 Nov 2016, 5:49 am

Even if you were standing in the middle of a perfectly flat desert, someone 7km away would be over the horizon and out of line of sight. The only way you're even going to manage to be 20km away from someone with line of sight, or even 7km, is being in the same flat desert with one of you high in a tower to get over the horizon.


That is what the repeater network is supposed to over come, or what is left of the repeater network.
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by Antie » 30 Nov 2016, 9:43 am

Yeah but the "repeater network" is barely a thing, right?

It's not an organised national network with great coverage, aren't they basically just spotted around randomly?
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by happyhunter » 30 Nov 2016, 12:31 pm

These days the repeater network is pitiful compared to years gone by. If you want reliable long distance radio communication get an SSB radio.
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by Prettybird » 30 Nov 2016, 12:58 pm

Yeah if you want to fork out thousands more for a unit and antenna setup.

Vs $300 for a UHF.

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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by happyhunter » 01 Dec 2016, 9:05 am

Thousands more $$? Where you been shopping :D
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by Prettybird » 01 Dec 2016, 10:16 am

I haven't seriously looked at one to be honest but aren't they about $2k by the time you get the gear, antenna etc.

UHF costs $300 and $100 for an antenna.

You know what I mean though.
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by happyhunter » 01 Dec 2016, 1:40 pm

Nah, unless you are looking at Codan HF radios. I'm talking about the old 27 MHZ CB band. There is still a plethora of used and new SSB/AM radios on the market. You can pay from $50 up to a few hundred depending on what it is. For $300 you can find 10 meter amateur radios that have been tuned to operate on the CB band.

Have a look on Ebay. You can still buy new from the states. Units made for the U.K made also transmit on the FM band.

They aren't as popular these days but the difference is the HF band will bend over the horizon and mountains so you get much greater range and when the conditions are right you can talk to stations interstate and over seas.
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by Arth » 02 Dec 2016, 9:59 am

Who's on the other end though? Only other HF radio users I guess?
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by happyhunter » 03 Dec 2016, 9:02 am

Arth wrote:Who's on the other end though? Only other HF radio users I guess?


Yep. Channel 11 is the AM call channel and channel 16 and 35 are the SSB call channels. 45 and 55 are the DX call channels, channel 8 the road channel (AM) and channel 9 the emergency channel. The person on the other end could be in the next street, next town, another state or thousands of miles away in another country, depending on atmospheric conditions.
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by Khan » 05 Dec 2016, 2:18 pm

So is there anyone official on the HF network, I mean, if you're in trouble is there guarantee you will be able to reach a rescue service or someone that can help?

Pointless if you're going to be reaching strangers that are almost certainly going to be too far away to help.
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by happyhunter » 05 Dec 2016, 3:58 pm

Khan wrote:So is there anyone official on the HF network, I mean, if you're in trouble is there guarantee you will be able to reach a rescue service or someone that can help?

Pointless if you're going to be reaching strangers that are almost certainly going to be too far away to help.


Other way around around mate. It's happened in the past where people were broken down out back of ****** ditch where UHF is dead and useless, and the people in trouble were able to contact a station in another state who in turn contacted the local police who contacted the police in the state where the folks were stranded.

I've done it many times, turned on the UHF when out remote and given a few calls and it's just dead. Turn on the old HF CB and it lights up with stations coming in from all over the joint.
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by happyhunter » 05 Dec 2016, 3:59 pm

Khan wrote:So is there anyone official on the HF network, I mean, if you're in trouble is there guarantee you will be able to reach a rescue service or someone that can help?

Pointless if you're going to be reaching strangers that are almost certainly going to be too far away to help.


Oh yeah, if you have a look at cop patrol cars in remote areas they have a HF antenna.
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by doc » 14 Dec 2016, 10:42 am

If you want absolute certainty when in the outback, then a PLB is what you need.

If you want the ability to actually talk to someone and not just put out a distress beacon - then Satphone.

If you want a very good chance of being able to talk to someone from anywhere without having to pay for a satphone service, then happyhunter is on the money - HF. There are different bands that are more effective depending on the time of the day, etc.

For instance I'm normally guaranteed a hit somewhere in Australia if I'm using around 7,000hz range. (7khz)

Alternatively, many times I can bring up a New Zealand station if operating on 14khz (14,000hz) and it's not uncommon to be able to get Africa, Europe or America. (These are with a mobile whip on a car, but I've heard of people who have done it with hand held units as well).

I haven't played with CB frequencies that much. It's my limited understanding that once you get above a certain frequency that the chance for 'skip' becomes more dependent on atmospheric conditions and whether the 'band is open'. In vary rare situations it's possible to talk hundreds of km's on UHF as well with ducting.
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by Khan » 14 Dec 2016, 3:37 pm

happyhunter wrote:
Khan wrote:So is there anyone official on the HF network, I mean, if you're in trouble is there guarantee you will be able to reach a rescue service or someone that can help?

Pointless if you're going to be reaching strangers that are almost certainly going to be too far away to help.


Other way around around mate. It's happened in the past where people were broken down out back of ****** ditch where UHF is dead and useless, and the people in trouble were able to contact a station in another state who in turn contacted the local police who contacted the police in the state where the folks were stranded.

I've done it many times, turned on the UHF when out remote and given a few calls and it's just dead. Turn on the old HF CB and it lights up with stations coming in from all over the joint.


I know the range limitations of UHF, that wasn't what I was referring to here.

You answered in a round about way maybe but just to clarify, there is no dedicated emergency responder access on HF? Correct?

You would be reaching other HF CB user civilians who you'd hope are in a position to help or who are in a location where they are able to contact emergency help and direct it to you?

I'm not knocking it, just wanting to understand.
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Re: Handheld UHF radio watts and range

Post by doc » 14 Dec 2016, 4:24 pm

Khan wrote:You answered in a round about way maybe but just to clarify, there is no dedicated emergency responder access on HF? Correct?


It depends on the frequency. For instance, there are still dedicated HF channels used still today by modern airliners monitored by Air Traffic Control for communicating with air traffic for traffic that is in remote areas or across the sea. They change the frequency used depending on the time of the day (and/or success as to whether they can communicate).

I believe RFDS also still has dedicated emergency channels for outback communication - which may be more along the lines of what you are referring to.

But yes - there are also unofficial (sort of official) volunteer based network for HF nomads where they can 'check in' when traveling outback to report that they're arrived at their locations.

Short answer - Yes there are official commercial / government frequencies. Which ones you can use will depend on who you are trying to communicate with and whether your licensed to.

But still - just because stations are listening on these channels is no guarantee that you will be able to communicate with these channels. (There's also the question as to which frequencies you are authorised to use). But that aside - HF is no guarantee - it's not like the mobile phones, or short range UHF's that we're familiar with these days, but if you know and understand it, you will know what is most likely to be the better options depending on the time of day, distance required, etc.
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