.22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

[in2anity]

I scored a case of CCI Std Vel yesterday for $500

Good price- where’d you score that?

[bladeracer]

Yes, the bore of my late lamented 452 rusted because I did not clean it. By that I mean, including oiling after cleaning. Maybe you don't give it time to rust?

I have a lot of rifles, and can't shoot them all every week, some sit in the safe for months.
No sign of any rust, although I did notice a tiny patch of "roughness" on the front barrel band of the Henry the other day. Couldn't really determine it is rust but I gave it some gun grease to be safe.

[bladeracer]

I scored a case of CCI Std Vel yesterday for $500

Good price- where’d you score that?

My dealer that closed his shop down in September.
I was placing an order with Rebels but I know he's stopped working while he finishes emptying the shop out. Thought he might be able to use some cash so I rang, told him what I was ordering and that I was happy to give the money to him if he could supply it. I was actually thinking that he's going up to Melbourne to collect my rifles from Border Force anyway, maybe he could combine it with collecting an order of ammo/powders/primers and put some extra cash in his pocket. He can't be arsed ordering via distributors anymore, but said he was still going through his stocks and would let me know what he's got left.

He also found 4kg of AR2206H for me, but when I picked it up yesterday I asked what was in the bottom of the box. He thought it was empty but we checked, another ten bottles of AR2206H
So I brought home 10kg of powders (grabbed some AR2213SC as well), and he found 5000 primers ($200!), and a brick of CCI Quiet - turned into quite a haul.

He still has some DG stuff he's toting up.

[lee_enfield223]

I would add the extra $ and get a Lilja barrel fitted with a nice custom stock , your 452 action is in MHO better than the current 455's and hatches makes some nice stocks

[marksman]

I would add the extra $ and get a Lilja barrel fitted with a nice custom stock , your 452 action is in MHO better than the current 455's and hatches makes some nice stocks

+1

[bigrich]

The "dust" is burnt carbon and that is what holds atmospheric moisture against the steel, eventually resulting in rust. Do you live in a dry part of Oz, bladeracer? If so, that might be why your barrels don't rust. I live near the Pacific north of Bris, where the air is salty and humid. Perfect recipe for rust.

Are you saying that a .22LR bore will rust despite the coating of bullet lubricant? I can't recall ever seeing that. I would think scraping the lube out of the bore is more likely to result in rusting.
I wouldn't say Central Gippsland is dry
But I do shoot very, very regularly.

i know a fella on here who was passed down his uncles voere 22lr . i think it was a late 60's early 70's model. had a couple of boxes of lead projectiles put down it, then sat under uncles bed for about thirty years . no rust in the bore and it shoots one hole groups . i believe the lead and lubricant coating acts to stop rust. i only shoot lead projectiles and i only use a nylon brush and "push" the dust out the end of the barrel with maybe three passes. then one ore two dry patches and i'm done . i try not to disturb the "leading" in the barrel by cleaning too hard.

[bladeracer]

i know a fella on here who was passed down his uncles voere 22lr . i think it was a late 60's early 70's model. had a couple of boxes of lead projectiles put down it, then sat under uncles bed for about thirty years . no rust in the bore and it shoots one hole groups . i believe the lead and lubricant coating acts to stop rust. i only shoot lead projectiles and i only use a nylon brush and "push" the dust out the end of the barrel with maybe three passes. then one ore two dry patches and i'm done . i try not to disturb the "leading" in the barrel by cleaning too hard.

The bore of a .22LR will be coated with lube, not lead. I would expect there to be virtually no lead at all in there due to the amount of lube used on most .22LR ammo.

[Oldbloke]

I agree something is not right here. It takes a lot of effort to mess up rifling and I doubt a brass jag and a coated rod could do that damage in one go.
Just my 2 cents

Bill

Agree, brass or nylon brush will never.stuff a barrel. Waaay to soft.

[bigrich]

i know a fella on here who was passed down his uncles voere 22lr . i think it was a late 60's early 70's model. had a couple of boxes of lead projectiles put down it, then sat under uncles bed for about thirty years . no rust in the bore and it shoots one hole groups . i believe the lead and lubricant coating acts to stop rust. i only shoot lead projectiles and i only use a nylon brush and "push" the dust out the end of the barrel with maybe three passes. then one ore two dry patches and i'm done . i try not to disturb the "leading" in the barrel by cleaning too hard.

The bore of a .22LR will be coated with lube, not lead. I would expect there to be virtually no lead at all in there due to the amount of lube used on most .22LR ammo.

there would have to be some lead build-up in the bore otherwise why would cleaning affect accuracy in some rifles so much ? i'm a firm believer in not cleaning 22lr's that just shoot lead. i used to clean , but after a bit of experimenting , accuracy is definately better with a "seasoned" barrel. at least in my case in my rifle
JMHO

[simpsonhey]

What about a snake

[straightshooter]

The subject of this thread reminds me of a XXXX beer commercial many years ago.
(I'll leave the joke about why it is labelled XXXX to somebody else to tell.)
The commercial has a couple of blokes with a ute tray as full of XXXX cartons as possible and then one of them puts on a box of lemonade, "for the ladies", which causes the wheels on the ute to fall off.
If you believe that commercial then you will also believe that a single 'incompetent' cleaning will destroy a barrel.
EDIT
Unless of course the cleaning was done with a file, screwdriver or similar implement.

[wildcard6]

Just to finish off this thread, I got my CZ back after having it re-chambered and it's shooting great again. To the person who thought it was impossible to damage the rifling with a single clean, you have no idea how hard I pushed the cleaning rod up the barrel! I was determined to use that bloody rod-guide that I'd bought. It was the front edge of the rod that did the damage, with me pushing like crazy to get it up the barrel. The rifle went from being able to hit the tiny scoped rimfire rifle chickens at 100m to NOT being able to hit the RAMS at the same distance twice in a row. The missing rifling was tearing bits of bullet away as it passed over the damaged area and throwing mad fliers most of the time. With a 20mm shorter barrel and a nice tight new chamber, I'm zotting those chickens again! END.

[deanp100]

Your barrel must have been made out of wood.

[Diamond Jim]

I can't discount your experience but i find it hard to reconcile with my own. Never had a barrel destroyed - ever - and certainly not from cleaning - properly!

[bladeracer]

I can't discount your experience but i find it hard to reconcile with my own. Never had a barrel destroyed - ever - and certainly not from cleaning - properly!

I don't recall ever causing barrel problems myself, but I have two rifles with significant problems.

My father-in-law's Remington 510 he got on his 14th birthday in 1940. The very best groups I've managed with it are about 6" or so, at 25m, scoped, with its favourite ammo. I put some jacketed .224" bullets through it and it shot about 2" at 25m from memory with open sights, much better anyhow. So I pushed a .224" bullet through the bore. It was tight-ish at the first and last couple inches, it floated through the main part of the bore. It seems he spent decades "fishing" with it, stick the muzzle in the water, when a fish gets close, pull the trigger, collect the stunned fish. It's just one continuous bulge.

And my Type 38 Arisaka is totally shot out. They have an unusual rifling system copied from the Lee-Metford, polygonal rather than grooved, but mine has no discernible rifling at all, and slugs .006" over-size, and shoots as you'd expect. What always dumbfounds me when I see one of these, is how did it get so worn out. It must've had many thousands of rounds put down the tube long after accuracy went out the window, so what were they shooting at? In battle it's certainly possible to destroy the barrel in a relatively low round-count due to the intense heat of firing hundreds or thousands of rounds in very short periods, and I doubt the Japanese had anywhere that could refurbish their rifles after about '43, so it likely would've stayed on the line until it was destroyed or captured. And as they were fighting at extremely close ranges, accuracy would still have been easily acceptable. I'm reading "Shots Fired in Anger: A Rifleman's View of the War in the Pacific, 1942-1945" just now, excellent book. It's rare to read accounts of battle written by a true firearms enthusiast. He liked the Type 38 Carbine and carried one for a time on Guadalcanal.

It is certainly possible to damage a barrel, but I don't think it's very common. Even bent barrels often still shoot quite well. I would think most easily outlast their owners.

[Stix]

I also have a CZ 452 that suffered the problem with the ejector.
Some of them are too big (the ejector) & it sticks up well into the line of the bore....no correct fitting bore guide will correct it.
Rather the ejector needs to be filed down.

Mine ruined 2 rods, a .22 & a .17 before realising the problem.

Ive often wondered if i was the only one out there who ended up with an oversize ejector.

[bigrich]

My Cz is the same stix. I tried a bore guide a couple of times, then stopped using it. I had trouble getting the jag past the ejector. Once past the ejector it worked okay, but forcing anything into a rifle doesn’t sound like a good idea to me

[Wm.Traynor]

Ive often wondered if i was the only one out there who ended up with an oversize ejector.

I have gone to great lengths with my 455 and have made two detachable ejectors. So far, so good.

[Stix]

Ive often wondered if i was the only one out there who ended up with an oversize ejector.

I have gone to great lengths with my 455 and have made two detachable ejectors. So far, so good.

That sounds the go Wm...

Im not familiar with how they attach, or with the 455 for that matter, but are the ones you made something that is easily removed & replaced for cleaning, or a bit of a root around to do...?

Can you post pics...?

[Stix]

My Cz is the same stix. I tried a bore guide a couple of times, then stopped using it. I had trouble getting the jag past the ejector. Once past the ejector it worked okay, but forcing anything into a rifle doesn’t sound like a good idea to me

No forcing is not a good idea...but to admit to some severe stupidity, i did it with mine...

Just for a bit of a winge...
I asked winchester if a local smith could repair it (the oversize ejector) & them cover the cost--they said they wont cover the cost & that it would void warrantee.
Then in a phone call to Winchester from the dealer with me present, Winchester said they will cover the cost of my new cleaning rods by ammo to my choice if i sent it back to them for them to rectify...which i did...

So i packed it all up in the box with everything it came with, with the one exception of the instruction book...& that was pointed out to the sales guy as i opened the box & went through everything.

The rifle was fixed & returned without the original 5 shot mag & the dealer renigged on Winchesters promise to supply the ammo...

I quizzed them about my mag & they said i must have lost it because it wasnt listed on their paperwork. ..even though i made a point of it with the sales guy who booked it in...!!
Talk about a bunch of greedy capatilist pigs ...fukn kunts...!!!

Winchester also screwed me over with my Citori purchase...I was going to buy another nice Browning 725 O/U...but after all that, my next nice shotgun purchase will NOT be that brand, or anything from Winchester...they are truely a bunch of fukwits & deserve to go out of business...!!!

I take great pleasure in knowing ive cost them 2 shotgun sales since, & i look forward to costing them a lot more...!!!

[bigrich]

sadly stix, good customer service in general is rare these days . the sales guy and dealer should have taken it upon themselves to sort it out and look after you . i get on some american forums and winchester seem to have a good rep over there. but berreta USA and remington had a lot of complaints from what i saw . i think it was flyer on this forum that had a issue with his weihrauch and the melbourne distributer sent him another stock and trigger with the unused parts to be returned. ( correct me if i'm wrong flyer ), now that's service . if someones fool enough to rip me or stuff me around i put the word around real fast . is ya cz better now but stix ?

[Wm.Traynor]

Stix,
My 455 does not really need two ejectors. The first was epoxied to the back of the mag but the 'poxxy seemed a bit soft. It is still in place as is No. 2, which is way more complicated, albeit just as cheap. So, the 'poxxy on No.1 must be OK I suppose. It was a tiny piece of right-angle aluminium and the entire original ejector was removed. This necessitated the fettling of a semi circular nut to take the bolt at the rear of the mag housing. That was a root around, so yes, there is a fair bit of trouble involved. This nut was made of scrap aluminium, drilled and tapped for a 5mm thread. The butt-end of the nut has to be shaped to match the original gizmo. No idea of its name but that involved a lot of trial and error too.
Too late to post pics right now. Have a think about whether you're still interested and I'll get onto it tomorrow arvo.

[Wm.Traynor]

Having read through the above, I cannot recall if the No.1 fix requires fiddling with the mag retainer between mag and the rear of the housing. Perhaps the original retainer could work. I am confused because it has been replaced by ejector No.2.

[Stix]

Hey WM...dont go to any bother...i was just curious to see it if it was easy enough...so if its a hassle leave it mate...
I dont own a 455 anyway.

I just hope i remember its you that has done it so if i ever own one with the problem ill know who to PM...
But, although my memory "thinks" its good, the reality is ill forget not only you, but what this whole thing was about.



Hey what...?
Forget what 'what' is about...?
What are you on about ejecting...? Get thrown out a pub did we...?

(that was funny in my head anyway)

Cheers WM

[Stix]

sadly stix, good customer service in general is rare these days . the sales guy and dealer should have taken it upon themselves to sort it out and look after you . i get on some american forums and winchester seem to have a good rep over there. but berreta USA and remington had a lot of complaints from what i saw . i think it was flyer on this forum that had a issue with his weihrauch and the melbourne distributer sent him another stock and trigger with the unused parts to be returned. ( correct me if i'm wrong flyer ), now that's service . if someones fool enough to rip me or stuff me around i put the word around real fast . is ya cz better now but stix ?

Well funny you ask Rich....for the short answer, skip down to the last line... for the dramatised Mr Bean version, read on from here

..last at the range it went awal...It was shooting Win Sub HP's good enough for comfortable head shots on bunnies at 60yds & that suits me as i always have the 204 sitting next to me for a real bang ...but i put 2x 5 shot groups through it & the second group sprayed...(seems an all too common thing with my rifles lately..!! )
So another 2 groups did the same...
Tried CCI Sub HP's & they grouped fine, but until now the rifle hasn't overly liked them...

So up the farm a few days ago i adjusted the scope in the rings (it has been ever so slightly canted & as a builder with a keen eye that really pisses me off every time i look through it).
Sighted her in again...all good...
Then looking closely at it, i notice the barrel is not centred as it used to be, so i decide to take it out of the stock, give its belly a rub with oil & straighten it up....well that there my friend was the point which turned a 5 minute exercise into an hour n a bit ordeal...

I noticed the rear screw was loose...no not loose, but was not tight...so i tensioned it all up..to 35 inch lbs actually...re sighted it in & it shot everything everywhere & the barrel was now touching the side of forend despite my desperate manipulation ...1.5"-2" groups was the best it would print now with any ammo i had on me FFS... FMD i was furious...it was about 7pm by this time & i wanted to go smash some bunnies with it in daylight as i was bored with the 204, but here i was with a bludy 22 that was carrying on like a winy old bag & just being difficult for the sake of it...

So i ended up pulling it out again, tensioned both front & rear up to 25 in/lbs & it shot probably .75-1"...
Well that was it...id wasted my dinner time stuffing with this stick of minerals & plant stored carbon so i was off to the other block...& guess what i got when i was out there...Bloody nothing...the wind was howling a good 15-20 mph & no bunny was to be seen...

I sit back & laugh now , but at the time i was effing furious....!!

Now for the short answer...NO...its not great at all...it needs to be floated & bedded...but i think it will be a cracker once thats done...

[bigrich]

I like the Mr Bean tv series a lot you don’t drive a green mini do you stix ? if you bed it, make sure you post it all cause I’ve considered doing that to my Cz as well

[Wm.Traynor]

[quote="Stix"
I just hope i remember its you that has done it so if i ever own one with the problem ill know who to PM...
But, although my memory "thinks" its good, the reality is ill forget not only you, but what this whole thing was about.:[/quote]

Stix,
I keep a little notebook in the same pencil case where the bolt is kept. FWIW mate