Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Rimfire bolt action rifles, lever action, pump action and self loading rifles. Air rifles.

Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Jan 2020, 10:09 pm

mikejay wrote:I too have been concentrating on paper targets at 25 & 50 meters, eventually I'll go up to 100 meters too.


The scope Model I have is the Continental 5-30x56 Tactical Riflescope. As the model name implies its zoom range is from 5x to 30x with an objective of 56 mm and a tube diameter of 30 mm, it has side focus (edited this in when I read Stix's post and completely agree) The turrets track perfectly, I love this thing, feature for feature, quality to quality it compares favourably to big brand scopes 3 times it's price.
.


I have not seen a Continental scope, what sort of money did you pay for it? What big brand scopes have you compared it with? What types of competitions are you participating in?
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by sungazer » 14 Jan 2020, 10:19 pm

If you are target shooting though, Once you start the range some good advice is to not touch the scope. Either in zoom / magnification whatever you want to call it or parallax. If you want to adjust the parallax to a different difference to view mirage the use of a good quality spotting scope is much more suitable for the job. So the AO or Side is not that big of a deal for shooting target where you would shoot 10-12 shots at a single fixed distance. do it once then dont touch it
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by Flyer » 14 Jan 2020, 10:35 pm

Stix wrote:Sorry to butt in here not having read everything previous to this...

Personally...id stay away from the "AO" style of scope...

A PITA if hunting...& also a PITA if target shooting...

I rekon there is nothing worse than having to move your shoulder &/or cheek position because you have to reach so far forward to to adjust the scope paralex...
Stick with side focus... :thumbsup:

Also beware, many scopes are not in focus when the paralex is set, & visa-versa...so learn how to set the paralex properly, &/or align your eye through the true centre axis of the scope... :thumbsup:

:drinks:

AO has finer focal adjustment than side focus and is slightly more forgiving.

If you're a competition shooter, you won't be adjusting your scope mid-shoot anyway - you'll adjust it BEFORE you set up at whatever distance you are shooting at. There should be no reason to be adjusting your scope midway through your detail unless you did not set it up correctly to begin with.

Some AO scales are better than others. Most competition shooters adjust their scopes to set target distances and then put a mark on the scope as to where that distance corresponds (in the event the scales do not line up). Ie, 25m, 50m, 100m etc (as most US scopes are also scaled in yards).

I completely agree that AO is a PIA in the field unless you pre-set it to a common shooting distance. For rimfire it could be 50m or 75m or whatever, but you probably won't need it much beyond that.

Parallax adjustment is not linear, so the greater the distance, the less it is affected.

Depth of field is a product of focal length, range and aperture.

So the bigger the objective (50mm vs 40 for example), the less depth of field. The higher the magnification, the less depth of field. The shorter the focal distance, the less depth of field.

The less depth of field you have, the more sensitive the scope is to focus.

It's for this reason a lot of rimfire and air rifle target scopes are AO and not side focus. For alround use, side focus is easier to use. The main problem is most side focus scopes won't go down to 25m or less for rimfire shooting, so that can limit your choice of scope. That's why I listed the Bushnell 4500 series, as it goes down to 25m.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by Flyer » 14 Jan 2020, 10:35 pm

sungazer wrote:If you are target shooting though, Once you start the range some good advice is to not touch the scope. Either in zoom / magnification whatever you want to call it or parallax. If you want to adjust the parallax to a different difference to view mirage the use of a good quality spotting scope is much more suitable for the job. So the AO or Side is not that big of a deal for shooting target where you would shoot 10-12 shots at a single fixed distance. do it once then dont touch it

Absolutely correct.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by pomemax » 14 Jan 2020, 10:46 pm

Just read this post I think one person Said something about your eysight to me that is one of the most critical points when buying a scope .
Do you wear any form of glasses other than saftey when shooting IE : I wear trifocals Its a factor with scopes.
Next is paralex learn what it is and how you set plenty on youtube more important than magification @ 50 m
on all my 22s I dont go over a 3x9 scope I find @ 50m plenty of mag.
Does your local range have 22s you can hire and try and if they sell scopes at the range look at other people targets with them see what YOU like , scopes are a personal thing what I like you may not .
Everyone will have an opinion on scopes and thats what will work for them.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by Flyer » 14 Jan 2020, 10:49 pm

mikejay wrote:My first scope was a mistake for this kind of shooting and I sold it (Hi Ziad), the scope I have now is by a relative newcomer to the market called Vector Optics, they're probably to best quality scope coming out of China, they're actually fitted with German glass. Don't forget 80% of those well known brand scopes also come out of Chinese manufacturing.

Hey mate, there's probably a pretty big difference between German-made Schott glass and "Glass Reticle with Germany Tech" – whatever that means. I doubt it has German glass in it for that price. I would love to be wrong, but I don't see the words "Made in Germany" anywhere.

Light Optical Works of Japan makes glass for a lot of the mid-to-upper tier scope manufacturers like Bushnell, Night Force and the old Weavers. In fact, most of the better mid-budget scopes are made in Japan.

As most people who have owned a few scopes will tell you, you nearly always get what you pay for. And you won't know just how good or bad your scope is until you've looked through a few others for comparison. Of course, it also depends on your eye. Some people have good eyes and can pick the distinction, and some are happy with mid-range glass.

To some it doesn't really matter that much, but if you spend a lot of time behind a scope, good glass can make the difference between a good day at the range and a headache at the end of it.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by mikejay » 15 Jan 2020, 5:06 am

Flyer wrote:Hey mate, there's probably a pretty big difference between German-made Schott glass and "Glass Reticle with Germany Tech" – whatever that means. I doubt it has German glass in it for that price. I would love to be wrong, but I don't see the words "Made in Germany" anywhere.

Light Optical Works of Japan makes glass for a lot of the mid-to-upper tier scope manufacturers like Bushnell, Night Force and the old Weavers. In fact, most of the better mid-budget scopes are made in Japan.

As most people who have owned a few scopes will tell you, you nearly always get what you pay for. And you won't know just how good or bad your scope is until you've looked through a few others for comparison. Of course, it also depends on your eye. Some people have good eyes and can pick the distinction, and some are happy with mid-range glass.

To some it doesn't really matter that much, but if you spend a lot of time behind a scope, good glass can make the difference between a good day at the range and a headache at the end of it.


It has etched German made Schott glass, it sells for around $1K rrp in Oz.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by Flyer » 15 Jan 2020, 7:06 am

Is this the one? https://www.vectoroptics.store/Continen ... scope.html

Does it focus down to 15 yards like it says in the specs? It also says it takes a battery, so it is has an illuminated reticle?

I'm trying to find the bit where it says the glass is made in Germany, but I can't. They do list their address in Utah but have a Hong Kong number, which is a bit weird :unknown:
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by SCJ429 » 15 Jan 2020, 7:39 am

You must be impressed with it then if you say it compares favourably with $3,000 scopes. Are you able to post a link where they say the glass is manufactured. I cannot seem to find anything.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by Stix » 15 Jan 2020, 8:14 am

Flyer wrote:[
AO has finer focal adjustment than side focus and is slightly more forgiving.

If you're a competition shooter, you won't be adjusting your scope mid-shoot anyway - you'll adjust it BEFORE you set up at whatever distance you are shooting at. There should be no reason to be adjusting your scope midway through your detail unless you did not set it up correctly to begin with.

Some AO scales are better than others. Most competition shooters adjust their scopes to set target distances and then put a mark on the scope as to where that distance corresponds (in the event the scales do not line up). Ie, 25m, 50m, 100m etc (as most US scopes are also scaled in yards).

I completely agree that AO is a PIA in the field unless you pre-set it to a common shooting distance. For rimfire it could be 50m or 75m or whatever, but you probably won't need it much beyond that.

Parallax adjustment is not linear, so the greater the distance, the less it is affected.

Depth of field is a product of focal length, range and aperture.

So the bigger the objective (50mm vs 40 for example), the less depth of field. The higher the magnification, the less depth of field. The shorter the focal distance, the less depth of field.

The less depth of field you have, the more sensitive the scope is to focus.

It's for this reason a lot of rimfire and air rifle target scopes are AO and not side focus. For alround use, side focus is easier to use. The main problem is most side focus scopes won't go down to 25m or less for rimfire shooting, so that can limit your choice of scope. That's why I listed the Bushnell 4500 series, as it goes down to 25m.


You slmost sound like youre trying to correct me flyer... :unknown:
Yet slmost everything you say just repeats what i said... :?

Having serviced professional commercial & corporate photographers for 14 yrs forced me to have an understanding of depth of field, but a re-education can be a good thing....thanks... :thumbsup:
So steering awsy from unnecessary laws of physics of light passing through an apperture, like i suggested, one will notice the great shift in focus/paralex at closer range than at far--like that required from 25m to 50m...but not notice the ssme 25m when its from 275m to 300m...depth of feild... :thumbsup:

And no AO scooes DO NOT have a finer adjustment than side focus at all...!!
Well none that ive seen...
BOTH AO & side focus scopes ARE infinately adjustable from minimum distance to infinity...

I think maybe you're getting a bit mixed up with the fact that becsuse of the nature of the side focus set up, the diameter of the dial & possibly the gearing/pitch of thread difference between the 2 different mechanisms,, you have to move the ring more on an AO scope for the ssme correction as a side focus.

And while this may seem advantagrous for "finer adjustment", on the other hand, i see so many novice shooters at the range constantly fiddling with focus on AO scopes, because self professed experts tell them silly things like over exagerating how important it is even at 50 metres, when infact you can shoot just as good a group if your eye is aligned centrally for every single shot while the paralex is set at 45m...
And how a side focus scope will more rspidly shift in & out of focus, i believe is much better for a novice...
Also, as many scopes arent in focus when paralex is set, once the mirage picks up, a minor adjustment from paralex set to target in focus (sharper looking target through the mirage) can be advantageous for shooting tighter groups...
But then im talking from my perspectine of shooting groups/load testing with a 3.5kg kit through a typical hunting style scope & not an AO version of Hubble mounted on a ton of steel pipe......

And i like paragraph where you say there should be no reason to have to adjust the parralex--unless you have a reason to adjust it... :lol: :clap:

Agsin, i havent read everything here, but i stand by my suggestion...i dont think AO scope is generally ideal for a novice...& i dont like them...& i dont shoot comps... :drinks:
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by sungazer » 15 Jan 2020, 8:23 am

The Vector Optics Continental may be a good scope, however the specifications they claim have me a little concerned about their honesty. When I see mistakes about even understanding specifications or over exaggeration, it always raises those little hairs on the back of my neck and make me wary.

But if you are ever shooting to a depth of 300m under water it looks like this is the scope for you. Just don't be wearing my diving computer or using my specialized deep water regs as they are only rated to 200m. :lol:
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by mikejay » 15 Jan 2020, 12:15 pm

Flyer wrote:Is this the one? https://www.vectoroptics.store/Continen ... scope.html

Does it focus down to 15 yards like it says in the specs? It also says it takes a battery, so it is has an illuminated reticle?

I'm trying to find the bit where it says the glass is made in Germany, but I can't. They do list their address in Utah but have a Hong Kong number, which is a bit weird :unknown:


It sure does focus down to 15 yards and yeah the reticle is illuminated. I can't find it specifically for the Continental either. They use 2 types of glass across their range, The German made glass or their locally produced LeREE Lens. I've emailed and Skyped with their tech guys and the Continental uses German glass.

Try http://www.scvector.com/ the www.vectoroptics.store is their US facing website.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 15 Jan 2020, 1:15 pm

Hey Mike, well i ended up selling it, as i have had a complete rethink on how i use scopes on my rifles.

Anyway, stix, i have both types of scope AO benchrest type and side focus tactical and BR types. The sightron 36x42 with AO has two full revolutions and can focus from 15y to infinity. So is the most adjustable i have seen.

But equally at 50mm diameter the AO focus ring will travel more for 5deg change, than a 15mm side focus knob. That's simple maths/science
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by Stix » 15 Jan 2020, 2:20 pm

Ah see...you getting the threads mixed up ziad mate...

This is where the typology comes into it... :thumbsup:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

:)
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by Flyer » 15 Jan 2020, 5:13 pm

Stix wrote:Agsin, i havent read everything here, but i stand by my suggestion...i dont think AO scope is generally ideal for a novice...& i dont like them...& i dont shoot comps... :drinks:

I do shoot competition and have won club and state titles. And I'm a former professional photographer. And I own both AO and side focus scopes. My current scopes range from from mid-tier Weavers (see below) to a couple of Z5 Swarovskis. Many – if not most – of the top rimfire shooters at clubs around Australia use AO scopes.

Any "novice" shooter can use an AO scope. One of the first rimfire scopes I owned when I started offhand competition was a Leupold VX-2 3-9x33 EFR, and it is still one of the best. I used it to equal a club record in metallic silhouette at distances of 25-100m.

Here it is on my old CZ-452 silhouette rifle. I would suggest this scope to anyone, as it is one of the best for the price out there and very easy to get your eye behind:
Screen Shot 2018-03-13 at 17.45.37.png
Screen Shot 2018-03-13 at 17.45.37.png (1.14 MiB) Viewed 616 times


Here is my current offhand rifle with a second-hand Weaver Grand Slam 6-20x40 AO. This one won me a state championship. I adjusted it once throughout the competition: moving it from 25m out to 50m. It cost $400.
IMG_2120.JPG
IMG_2120.JPG (340.99 KiB) Viewed 616 times


And here is my hunting rimfime (CZ453 Varmint in 17hmr). It has another of my favourite scopes that punches above its weight, the now discontinued Weaver Grand Slam 4-16x44. It side focuses down to 25y.
IMG_2123.JPG
IMG_2123.JPG (383.06 KiB) Viewed 616 times


Here is the Weaver's big brother, the 5-20x50, on a Sako Bavarian. This one also focuses down to 25y:
DSC_0413.jpeg
DSC_0413.jpeg (205.13 KiB) Viewed 616 times


I'd put any of these on a rimfire as they all focus down to 10-25y, have excellent glass with lifetime warranties, and can all be bought new or second-hand for around the $500 mark.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by Flyer » 15 Jan 2020, 5:33 pm

sungazer wrote:The Vector Optics Continental may be a good scope, however the specifications they claim have me a little concerned about their honesty. When I see mistakes about even understanding specifications or over exaggeration, it always raises those little hairs on the back of my neck and make me wary.

Yes, I feel the same way about Chinese claims – especially when the specs conflict with each other. But if it is what they say it is, it's not bad.

mikejay wrote:It sure does focus down to 15 yards and yeah the reticle is illuminated. I can't find it specifically for the Continental either. They use 2 types of glass across their range, The German made glass or their locally produced LeREE Lens. I've emailed and Skyped with their tech guys and the Continental uses German glass.

Try http://www.scvector.com/ the http://www.vectoroptics.store is their US facing website.

Thanks for that. If you're happy with it, and it stands up to the more expensive brands, then I guess the proof is on the pudding. It appears to have some good features for the money and there are some favourable reviews on the brand over at Optics Planet: https://www.opticsplanet.com/reviews/re ... brand.html

Thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by mikejay » 15 Jan 2020, 5:51 pm

Flyer wrote:Yes, I feel the same way about Chinese claims – especially when the specs conflict with each other. But if it is what they say it is, it's not bad.

Thanks for that. If you're happy with it, and it stands up to the more expensive brands, then I guess the proof is on the pudding. It appears to have some good features for the money and there are some favourable reviews on the brand over at Optics Planet: https://www.opticsplanet.com/reviews/re ... brand.html

Thanks for sharing. :thumbsup:


I believe a lot of the "conflicting" info has more to do with language issues than any blatant misrepresentation.

I really like my scope, it does what it says on the tin.

I only meant to use my scope as an example of what I've managed to pick up in terms of function, why and what has worked for me as a newbie, not actually pushing one brand over another
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by SCJ429 » 15 Jan 2020, 7:41 pm

My only problems with what you are saying is that you can get a cheap scope which is as good as something that you would pay a premium for. This is putting unrealistic expectations in the minds of new shooters who are looking for advice. No scope manufacture can make a premium scope for very little money and sell it to you for under $1000 AUD or for $400 USD.

You may get a quite useable product but they are not going to put Schmidt and Bender out of business anytime soon. If you were using top quality Germany ground lens then it would be front and centre in your advertising. We are all familier with planting the seed advertising where they say Germany designed or German Style to make the consumer assume that the product is something that it is not.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by mikejay » 15 Jan 2020, 10:29 pm

SCJ429 wrote:My only problems with what you are saying is that you can get a cheap scope which is as good as something that you would pay a premium for. This is putting unrealistic expectations in the minds of new shooters who are looking for advice. No scope manufacture can make a premium scope for very little money and sell it to you for under $1000 AUD or for $400 USD.

You may get a quite useable product but they are not going to put Schmidt and Bender out of business anytime soon. If you were using top quality Germany ground lens then it would be front and centre in your advertising. We are all familier with planting the seed advertising where they say Germany designed or German Style to make the consumer assume that the product is something that it is not.


I am a new shooter and the scopes are that good, you can see it in user review after user review. Where I was wrong is that they used actual German Schott glass in their earlier range up until a few months ago, now they use their own in house grinds and FMC coating lab equal to what the Germans produce, I wouldn't go knocking them until you get an opportunity to look through one yourself.

Here's a little YouTube clip of their various models when they were using actual German Schott glass

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAiq-YHB9bc

Or a little review by Craig Boddington on the Continental range https://www.scvector.com/about/view/id/20.html

Their newest range uses their own in house grinds and FMC process and produces glass equal and sometimes better than the German Schott glass they used to use.

Oh, and they offer lifetime warranty with an office and or representation on every major continent, yeah Oz too (https://www.badlands.com.au).
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by SCJ429 » 16 Jan 2020, 8:46 am

I think what you are trying to say is that the scope is good value for the price tag, even the paid endorsement by Boddington calls it a "good scope at a great price". It would be great to see an independent review against other budget line scopes.

I think that Chinese scopes are improving and you look to have a decent scope there. You have to consider what they can do with the few hundred USD budget to build a scope and to get it onto the market making a profit for the manufacture, the importer and the retailer for less than $500 USD. The entire budget for this scope is far less than Swarovski would spend on glass alone for their scopes.

Here is an interesting article regarding rimfire competition including some suggestions regarding magnification.
https://www.accurateshooter.com/shootin ... ion-match/

Good luck with your shooting and I hope you do well.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by mikejay » 16 Jan 2020, 10:07 am

SCJ429 wrote:I think what you are trying to say is that the scope is good value for the price tag, even the paid endorsement by Boddington calls it a "good scope at a great price". It would be great to see an independent review against other budget line scopes.

I think that Chinese scopes are improving and you look to have a decent scope there. You have to consider what they can do with the few hundred USD budget to build a scope and to get it onto the market making a profit for the manufacture, the importer and the retailer for less than $500 USD. The entire budget for this scope is far less than Swarovski would spend on glass alone for their scopes.

Here is an interesting article regarding rimfire competition including some suggestions regarding magnification.
https://www.accurateshooter.com/shootin ... ion-match/

Good luck with your shooting and I hope you do well.


Thanks m8.

Good article, my rifle is in the mix of the recommended ones.

While at my last session at St. Mary's I out shot an Annie64 MPR in the bay next to me at 50m. I've since changed my front rest from an Allen Citadel front rest that really should be used as a paint shaker for all its wobbles and jiggles, to a Caldwell The Rock BR with a Protektor 3" bag, and fitted one of those Kaizen 3" track plates. Will be interesting next time I go out, fingers crossed.

This is me at St. Mary's 50m early December last year, I was struggling with the P.O.S. Allen front rest and rear bag at that stage. Sometimes I could get hole in hole, most times not so much, I shot two rounds per tack and for s**ts and giggles I put 10 into one of them. The white centre is 5 mm in diameter.


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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by in2anity » 16 Jan 2020, 2:37 pm

Flyer wrote: I used it to equal a club record in metallic silhouette at distances of 25-100m.

What score'd yu get?
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by SCJ429 » 16 Jan 2020, 6:51 pm

What ammo are you using Mike?
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by mikejay » 16 Jan 2020, 7:32 pm

SCJ429 wrote:What ammo are you using Mike?


SK Rifle Match, it seems to do well in my rifle. I recently found out SK is made by Lapua so I'd like to try some Centre-X next time.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by SCJ429 » 16 Jan 2020, 8:13 pm

I believe you are correct, it is not the same as Lapua Centre X but made in the same factory.

Your Savage is shooting well, you need some bigger challenges. Well done.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by Wapiti » 20 Jan 2020, 11:37 am

It's interesting to read all the arguments either side of the debate from everyone.

In the 80s when mostly all we had were scopes up to 10 power, and variables were not known for their robustness except for a few expensive brands, we got by very well.
Going back 10 years, suddenly if you didn't have a 3-15x on your hunting gun, you were failing.

I remember falling for that too, and bought some things I can't stand now.

GUNS AND GAME magazine were a proponent of low powered scopes that you could mount very low over the bore, so were super fast to get on target and had awesome fields of view. They used bench guns to prove that groups shot on 2 to 4 power were as small as ones on 24x. I tried that theory and they were bang on.

Now, a hunting rifle for me has a 2-8x scope and is way big enough. A dedicated rim fire scope, with fixed parralax at 50m, has measurable benefits too and all ours have 2-7x as extremely flexible optics. Remembering that rim fire are "short range" cartridges too.

Anyway, maybe I can't see the difference between a between the eyes shot on game, and a target on a range. Except that, you can't muck about fiddling with AO or side focus because those targets have a tendency to bugger off if you stuff about.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by SCJ429 » 20 Jan 2020, 12:31 pm

Wapiti wrote:It's interesting to read all the arguments either side of the debate from everyone.


GUNS AND GAME magazine were a proponent of low powered scopes that you could mount very low over the bore, so were super fast to get on target and had awesome fields of view. They used bench guns to prove that groups shot on 2 to 4 power were as small as ones on 24x. I tried that theory and they were bang on.


It is an interesting theory but untrue. Even at 50 metres the extra magnification will assist you enormously. What sort of competition did you try a 4x scope in?
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by BangBangSkeetSkeet » 20 Jan 2020, 12:35 pm

[quote="Wapiti"] They used bench guns to prove that groups shot on 2 to 4 power were as small as ones on 24x. I tried that theory and they were bang on. /quote]

funny you say that, i sort of experienced that for myself yesterday. I was shooting a 223 off a bench at 100m with a 6-24x wound up to 20. i could see the target really well, but could also see my pulse in the reticle. I wound it down to 12x [still not 'low power' I know] and found it much better, and my groups improved.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by RoginaJack » 20 Jan 2020, 3:58 pm

Yep, the higher the magnification the more the wobbles and narrower field of view.

For field hunting a 3-9, 2-7 or 4-12 works for me.

Also, back in the day a American manufacture ( not sure of Manufacture - Redfield from Colorado) turned out a scope where the Objective lens was not round but oblong - theory was better field of view on running shots
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by SCJ429 » 20 Jan 2020, 7:47 pm

Happy to take bets on who can do better, you with the superior 4x and I will handicap myself with an inferior high power scope. 50x?
SCJ429
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