17HMR a strange cartridge

[jezzab]

I ordered a LH Miroku MK10 Deluxe Sporter and went to pick it up and they had ordered me a Trap instead because there was no stock. As expected it didn't fit and was an 1" high. Anyway, I have to wait until June

Since I had a ripe Cat A PTA there that would be wasted, I had a 17HMR hole in my life and thought I'd get an LA101 a go.(only have one other Aussie rifle) Went home with a nice little black barrel thing with a walnut stock

Sighted in and that night shot my first hare from 98m (I set this one up with a thermal). It did something I haven't seen before with my 22LR and .25 PCP, and did two casual hops to the right (I thought I'd missed) and then flipped over and did the usual leg shake.

Next day I double check my zero and it was spot on.

Next night I shoot another one and it bolts to the right 3m and stands upright (102m distance). Figured I must have missed which was strange from fence post. And these were body shots, not head shots. I'm no pro shooter but I can group 100m pretty well and have put 1000s of rounds through the 22LR and PCP

I decided to shoot again and it's down on its feet again and this is where is gets weird - If you have missed with a thermal before (and you have it to White Hot) you will see a black puff which is dirt of the miss and you re-adjust if needed. This had multiple 'puffs' around and behind it and then it dropped dead. There was no White though (hot blood) but maybe the bloody fragments went straight into the dirt

I love this thing but it intrigues me

[Finniss]

Haven't used one for 20 years but found it less than emphatic on chest shots. Tiny holes in and out. However saving grace was the excellent accuracy and ease of making head shots.

Good penetrator on thicker skulls too. Eg pigs,

[jezzab]

Now I trust it more for accuracy, I might stick with head shots.

Thanks

[Finniss]

Might be more ammo options by now, perhaps worth trying some others. Hopefully some more recent users will chime in.

[fnq22]

I got an Anshutz 17 last year and used it for spotlighting Hares on a family farm while down in NSW...

I have several boxs of ammo between 17 and 20 grain with I tried at the range when sighting in and found it strange how different each brand shot...Groups in all were great but at 100m and 200m the location of each brands group was significantly different...
Unfortunately I cant remember which brand we eventually sighted it in for and used on the Hares but even when my young son shot them anywhere in the front half of the body there was none of the movement you described except for the usual few leg kicks whilst lying on their side..

Would suggest you try some different projectiles till you find one that drops them properly....I have heard people say the only downside is the tiny projectiles are a little wind prone at longer distance and can also deflect when shooting on stubble paddocks or dry grass..I didnt really find that an issue even when one session was really quite windy...

I have a 22 hornet as well which has significantly more stopping power but its a bit of overkill for Hares and Crows.....The 17 is a lovely, mild and accurate calibre to shoot on small game..

[deye243]

I ordered a LH Miroku MK10 Deluxe Sporter and went to pick it up and they had ordered me a Trap instead because there was no stock. As expected it didn't fit and was an 1" high. Anyway, I have to wait until June

Since I had a ripe Cat A PTA there that would be wasted, I had a 17HMR hole in my life and thought I'd get an LA101 a go.(only have one other Aussie rifle) Went home with a nice little black barrel thing with a walnut stock

Sighted in and that night shot my first hare from 98m (I set this one up with a thermal). It did something I haven't seen before with my 22LR and .25 PCP, and did two casual hops to the right (I thought I'd missed) and then flipped over and did the usual leg shake.

Next day I double check my zero and it was spot on.

Next night I shoot another one and it bolts to the right 3m and stands upright (102m distance). Figured I must have missed which was strange from fence post. And these were body shots, not head shots. I'm no pro shooter but I can group 100m pretty well and have put 1000s of rounds through the 22LR and PCP

I decided to shoot again and it's down on its feet again and this is where is gets weird - If you have missed with a thermal before (and you have it to White Hot) you will see a black puff which is dirt of the miss and you re-adjust if needed. This had multiple 'puffs' around and behind it and then it dropped dead. There was no White though (hot blood) but maybe the bloody fragments went straight into the dirt

I love this thing but it intrigues me

What was the projectile

[jezzab]

Hornady Varmint Express 17gr V-Max. In hindsight I probably shouldnt have bought a brick of them before I tried some others out but the LGS was: "This is what everyone uses"

[Wapiti]

Years ago I got sucked into the hype about the 17HMR and bought one. The 17gn iterations of the VMax and 20gn HP's came out at the same time.
I well remember lining up two trotting foxes at not even 20m, and because they were running I popped each one just behind the shoulder... I distinctly remember the small impact point about 3 inches in diameter where the hair all flattened out where the tiny rice grains hit, spot on. Both foxes ran off, obviously to die later in circumstances that I find abhorrent. There's no way that would've happened with the 22 Mag.

When the ammo was on special down at Redcliffe for $17 for 50, we bought a lifetime's worth and if I had to pay todays prices, the two rifles here would have gone the way of the Dodo.
Relegated to the description of another of those gamechanger cartridges, both big and small, that are guaranteed to win matches for the amateurs or desktop number cruncher hunters out there.

It is a great flat shooting cartridge for what animals it is humane on, or most suited for, and undoubtedly it will kill foxes outright but I'm after a cartridge that will do the job in all circumstances, not just ideal ones.
So it is now the Indian Minor cartridge, half the time it doesn't kill them immediately with body shots either 100% of the time.

[Faedy]

Ive got 2 17HMRs. One with thermal and one with night vision 4k. Absolutely love them for rabbits, cats and foxes to 100m.
Best rifle to use on small acreages

[bigrich]

personally i like the 22mag , or if reloading 22 hornet for that type of use . all the OP can do is try different ammo with a heavier , stouter projectile i suppose

[jezzab]

Thanks for the advice and info guys. I'll try some different ammo but I think I'll just put some more rounds through it and get used to some of It's nuances. Gonna go for some headshots like I'm used to instead of H/L, see how it plays out. Either way the vermin was dispatched but not as quickly as I would like. They might be a piece of s**t but they all still deserve the fastest exit from this world possible IMHO and that's what lets me sleep at night, I don't like killing things for "fun" and I don't like things to suffer

[Bugman]

I really loved my 17HMR. But as has been mentioned, it has it's limitations. I mainly used it early morning for bunnies, when everything was still, no wind etc.
It was an excellent bit of kit for bunnies out to maybe 150m. Anything bigger, I would not take a shot at. That's just me.

[Billo]

personally i like the 22mag , or if reloading 22 hornet for that type of use . all the OP can do is try different ammo with a heavier , stouter projectile i suppose

The Hornet can do it all, had a HMR and the 17 WSM and both have a place but also limitation

The Hornet with the right projectile is a handy all-rounder and quiet, something that many over look

[fnq22]

personally i like the 22mag , or if reloading 22 hornet for that type of use . all the OP can do is try different ammo with a heavier , stouter projectile i suppose

The Hornet can do it all, had a HMR and the 17 WSM and both have a place but also limitation

The Hornet with the right projectile is a handy all-rounder and quiet, something that many over look

Hardly fair to compare a rimfire to a centrefire dont you think..?

As most mention 17 HMR has its limitations but used within those limitations (small critters and crows out to 200 metres or so ) its great..i also have a hornet and bigger centrefire stuff as well that I rarely use anymore...

The best reason to own a .17 is that when you are bouncing around on a ute in the dark and shooting hares or the occassional fox you dont have to worry about trying to catch your ejected shells to reload...the other nice thing is the low noise factor....we mainly would use the .222 sako handloaded for fox shooting back in the day that the skins were worth money and till last year none of us ever owned or wore ear protection...and when you shoot out the window of a ute or even over the cab the sound can revebrerate quite a bit..the .17 is a very pleasant round to shoot..

I dont understand the hate for it if you can accept and work within the limitations..and perhaps some folk just like a larger calibre with more hitting power because they are a crap shot and find it difficult to judge distances or consistently hit the vital areas..

[bigrich]

personally i like the 22mag , or if reloading 22 hornet for that type of use . all the OP can do is try different ammo with a heavier , stouter projectile i suppose

The Hornet can do it all, had a HMR and the 17 WSM and both have a place but also limitation

The Hornet with the right projectile is a handy all-rounder and quiet, something that many over look

Hardly fair to compare a rimfire to a centrefire dont you think..?

As most mention 17 HMR has its limitations but used within those limitations (small critters and crows out to 200 metres or so ) its great..i also have a hornet and bigger centrefire stuff as well that I rarely use anymore...

The best reason to own a .17 is that when you are bouncing around on a ute in the dark and shooting hares or the occassional fox you dont have to worry about trying to catch your ejected shells to reload...the other nice thing is the low noise factor....we mainly would use the .222 sako handloaded for fox shooting back in the day that the skins were worth money and till last year none of us ever owned or wore ear protection...and when you shoot out the window of a ute or even over the cab the sound can revebrerate quite a bit..the .17 is a very pleasant round to shoot..

I dont understand the hate for it if you can accept and work within the limitations..and perhaps some folk just like a larger calibre with more hitting power because they are a crap shot and find it difficult to judge distances or consistently hit the vital areas..

i believe the intended use for the 17hmr in the US is rabbits, wood chucks, squirrels and the like . as you say when used within it's limitations it's very useful and accurate . finding the right ammo for the job at hand seems to be the issue for the poster

[NTSOG]

Wapiti: "Both foxes ran off, obviously to die later in circumstances that I find abhorrent. There's no way that would've happened with the 22 Mag."

I'm using Hornady V-max 30 gr. in my HW60P .22 magnum and have recently had two foxes run off after shots that clearly penetrated the heart-lung zone at ranges of 65 and 85 yards. One went 15 yards, the other about 95 before dropping. Because of that now I tend to wait for a chance to shoot from chest to rear or rear to chest so the bullet can cause as much damage down the length of the body of the fox as possible, The same with hares. It seems the little 30 gr bullets don't have the shock effect to stun the blighters.

Jim

[bigrich]

Wapiti: "Both foxes ran off, obviously to die later in circumstances that I find abhorrent. There's no way that would've happened with the 22 Mag."

I'm using Hornady V-max 30 gr. in my HW60P .22 magnum and have recently had two foxes run off after shots that clearly penetrated the heart-lung zone at ranges of 65 and 85 yards. One went 15 yards, the other about 95 before dropping. Because of that now I tend to wait for a chance to shoot from chest to rear or rear to chest so the bullet can cause as much damage down the length of the body of the fox as possible, The same with hares. It seems the little 30 gr bullets don't have the shock effect to stun the blighters.

Jim

In that scenario I would suggest a 40gn hollow point in the heart lung region. Foxes won’t go far. Soft points are better for more penetration, the hollow points will have a big energy dump and turn lungs to jelly. Weihrauch are a really nice rifle, a little too nice to take out bush . lol

[Wapiti]

Yeah well, I kind of fell for the absolute marketing cr@p that saturated all the gun literature around the time of the 17HMR's release.
I also think that's why the 17 Mach 2 died, thinking about it and the tiny projectiles both used (same in each) the Mach 2 made more sense.
A 17gn projectile is still tiny but everybody fell for the bigger case because well, nobody will agree with my theory. That's blokes, looking for the magic solution to what they were born missing.

Same disease is surrounding the 6.5 and .30 cal markets right now, thank f**k I stuck with the ones that already did the job if you had any skill, instead of jumping from each and every "gamechanger" to the next promise of eternal perfection.

I will say though, that this fast rifling twist for diameter has merit, but for example, if I rebarelled a 300WM with a 1-8" tube the 300PRC really would stand for Penis Replacement Cartridge. Hey, it already does, WTF.
Edit: but why would I do that, paper and steel gongs don't run away or outsmart the "hunter".
Same as the 6.5 PRC. The Swedes worked that out before 1900 in the performanceof the "x55"... but the latest fashion dress on your girlfriend will always get the glances even if shes no better in the sack than the one before. It'll cost you though.

[jezzab]

How old is your ammo? Or the gun shops stock. I did some research on this a couple of months ago when I bought mine and the results were that this issue was resolved? ie split necks on unfired ammo. I bought a brick with mine and checked them all (Hornady) not one split (thankfully)

[mchughcb]

Wapiti: "Both foxes ran off, obviously to die later in circumstances that I find abhorrent. There's no way that would've happened with the 22 Mag."

I'm using Hornady V-max 30 gr. in my HW60P .22 magnum and have recently had two foxes run off after shots that clearly penetrated the heart-lung zone at ranges of 65 and 85 yards. One went 15 yards, the other about 95 before dropping. Because of that now I tend to wait for a chance to shoot from chest to rear or rear to chest so the bullet can cause as much damage down the length of the body of the fox as possible, The same with hares. It seems the little 30 gr bullets don't have the shock effect to stun the blighters.

Jim

I've shot foxes with the 17HMR, 17gr Vmax, 20gr TNT, and with the 22 Mag 30gr Vmax and 33gr Vmax and 40grain HP and 50gr Federal HP.

The 17 HMR really whacks rabbits harder and gives that higher pitched thwock when it hits them and kills them more emphatically. With the foxes the results are much closer and I'll just give the edge to the HMR. To be utterly sure that the fox dies with a chest shot then the 243Win with something like a 87gr Vmax is the way to go.

I do really like the 17M2. Its like a little 22LR on steroids and I sight mine in at 100m.

[NTSOG]

G'day,

I have the impression that 30gr. V-max in .22 Magnum results in more pass-through shots. [I have often seen a spray of dirt on the ground on the side away from me of a fox or hare where the bullet hit the ground.] I gather from what bigrich stated that slightly slower 40 gr. hollow points 'dump' their energy into the target animal rather than passing through which is what the lighter and faster 30 gr. V-max are tending to do.

Jim

[Wapiti]

How old is your ammo? Or the gun shops stock. I did some research on this a couple of months ago when I bought mine and the results were that this issue was resolved? ie split necks on unfired ammo. I bought a brick with mine and checked them all (Hornady) not one split (thankfully)

Good point, my ammo is a few years old, I bought many, many bricks of Hornady and Remington ammo when it was on special at just over $12/50 because I knew all the ammo was going to jump. It was just as the Wu Flu was sucking the politicians in.

But that just absolutely reinforces the non-annealed claims because brass doesn't just "age" like is incorrectly repeated ad-nauseum.

If the necks of loaded cartridges are hard, I.e. work hardened from the drawing process (which is exactly what occurs) and are not annealed after the final step of necking down to accept the bullet, and are under an expansion force from that seated bullet just under what it would take to cause the brass case to "yield", then a crack is the result.
If loaded unfired cartridges are cracking, that's definitely the issue, it's simple metallurgy.
The reason older cartridges are cracking is that brass so thin can only maintain its stretched, almost at yield-point condition for so long before it finally does give up.
Newer stuff made with the same process steps just hasn't been under the stress long enough to go.
Again, with newer ammo, perhaps this has been addressed either with a different brass composition or, most likely, an anneal closer to the last step before seating the bullet.

Just a finding I have from shooting hares on Lucerne with the 22 WMR exclusively with the 30gn Hornady VMax bullet, if they do exit which was rare from a body shot, it leaves a terrible mess. Most stay inside and leave the organs in almost a jelly mass.
My other favourite load is the 40gn CCI Maxi-mag hollow point, it definitely exits on a way more reliable basis and is a much tougher projectile. Makes complete sense though, and it's definitely travelling a fair bit slower which helps to that effect.
I have tried the 50gn stuff, but ditched it mainly because it would void the warranty of my wife's Volquartson 22mag semi-auto rifle.

[mchughcb]

G'day,

I have the impression that 30gr. V-max in .22 Magnum results in more pass-through shots. [I have often seen a spray of dirt on the ground on the side away from me of a fox or hare where the bullet hit the ground.] I gather from what bigrich stated that slightly slower 40 gr. hollow points 'dump' their energy into the target animal rather than passing through which is what the lighter and faster 30 gr. V-max are tending to do.

Jim

Not in my experience. The 50gr Federal HP will go through just about any larger than fox critter and I'm talking wallabies to goats. 40gr and 45gr subs which I still have a few, ditto. The 17gr and 30gr Vmax just spatter and break up like they were intended at those velocities.

[Wapiti]

Whatever you reckon mate. I don't have to win any internet arguments.
What do the AHN keyboarders reckon?
People who do this repeatedly to protect their livelihoods obviously have no idea.

[bigrich]

G'day,

I have the impression that 30gr. V-max in .22 Magnum results in more pass-through shots. [I have often seen a spray of dirt on the ground on the side away from me of a fox or hare where the bullet hit the ground.] I gather from what bigrich stated that slightly slower 40 gr. hollow points 'dump' their energy into the target animal rather than passing through which is what the lighter and faster 30 gr. V-max are tending to do.

Jim

That has been my experience, I think it was with cci maxi mag 40gn. I would say it’s worth experimenting with different loads in the 22mag . JMHO

[bigpete]

Have had a 22wmr and a 17hmr and 2 22lr rifles and the 17hmr was the one I used the most for pest control. Never had the problems described here

[bigrich]

Have had a 22wmr and a 17hmr and 2 22lr rifles and the 17hmr was the one I used the most for pest control. Never had the problems described here

what pests were you culling , and what ammo were you using pete ? i've seen winchester ammo split a lot of cases , saw a ruger 17hmr have a epic fail at belmont range one day . blew the mag out of the bottom of the rifle ! i'm a little sceptical of the 17hmr myself

[bigpete]

Have had a 22wmr and a 17hmr and 2 22lr rifles and the 17hmr was the one I used the most for pest control. Never had the problems described here

what pests were you culling , and what ammo were you using pete ? i've seen winchester ammo split a lot of cases , saw a ruger 17hmr have a epic fail at belmont range one day . blew the mag out of the bottom of the rifle ! i'm a little sceptical of the 17hmr myself

Hares,foxes, rabbits. All with CCI 20gn game points

[mchughcb]

The 20gr TNT work well

[bigrich]

Have had a 22wmr and a 17hmr and 2 22lr rifles and the 17hmr was the one I used the most for pest control. Never had the problems described here

what pests were you culling , and what ammo were you using pete ? i've seen winchester ammo split a lot of cases , saw a ruger 17hmr have a epic fail at belmont range one day . blew the mag out of the bottom of the rifle ! i'm a little sceptical of the 17hmr myself

Hares,foxes, rabbits. All with CCI 20gn game points

well the OP was using a 17gn ammo , that's the cause of his issues maybe . i've heard accuracy with the 17hmr can go sour after about 40 rounds. what say you pete ? at what ranges were you shooting foxes , how was the ballistic performance. what's your opinion on head shooting grey grasshoppers at under 100 yards ? yeah i'm asking a lot of questions , but this first hand info is enlightening rather than listening to hearsay