22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

[Apollo]

For those that do or do not own or have ever shot a .22 Hornet.

A few photos, first one of the .22 Hornets that I have tuned loads for. This one is a CZ 527 with Bushnell Elite 6200 2.5-16x50mm.

The next shows the beginning of load development for a complete change of components and dies used. The top two targets are straight heavy factory loads that were given to me and used to do rough sighting in after mounting a different scope, plus foul the barrel for some test loads. Then underneath one reload to recalibrate the scope and beside that the first test rounds and the beginning of reducing seating depth. The bottom left target is a slight further reduction of seating depth.

The last photo is a typical group shot with this .22 Hornet at 100yards. The circles on the targets are 2.00" and the square grid lines are 1.00" so you can work out the group size yourself.

This setup has head shot many rabbits and foxes at 100-150 yards and some by any of those three people that use this firearm from time to time. A typical very "inaccurate" calibre.

[Westy]

Nice Shooting apollo tell me is that rifle the 1-14 twist???

[Apollo]

I was going to comment on twist rates but had a few chores to do.

There are two twist rates in general with a normal .22 Hornet.

Those that come from Europe like CZ and the older Brno are 1:16" twist. So, "Westy" this is a 1:16.

Those that come from the USA are typically 1:14" and perhaps has an influence on why the american ammunition doesn't show great accuracy. I have not come across an American built Hornet to experiment with so far.

[Lorgar]

Good taste in scopes

[Chronos]

Good taste in scopes

Agree, I own 2 6500's in 2.5-16x42 as well.

One is on my 7-08, the other on my .204

Chronos

[pawnee]

Hi guys, my first post.

I shoot a .22 hornet still getting my loads tuned

30gn Barnes using ADI 2205 powder, at the moment using 11.5gn 2205 and groups are 1 inch at 100yds, still a lot more work to do.

40gn Noslers using 10.5 gns of 2205 and got them at 1 inch at 100 yds.

I have yet to crimp and change my COAL

I use cci small pistol primers and a lee collet die.

All my info comes from a expert who has many years of reloading, thanks Apollo.

[headspace]

A 22 Hornet is one of the great classics along with the 270. It remains one of the best fox rounds ever produced and is a very accurate performer out to 150yards.

Mine was a K Hornet, and early Brno with double set triggers, and I still wonder why I sold it.

I generally used 40 grain Hornady's in mine. If I ever see one of these in reasonably condition I'd have to buy it.

JD

[Varmtr]

Ah the old zkw465 nice little rifle headspace.

The hornet is a good round and cheaper to run than 22wmr if reloading. Anything within 200y and with my k-hornet cops a lead aspirin.

Other options depending on what you want is the 17 Fireball or the 221 Fireball. Or as I'm looking at is a 20 Vartarg which is the 221 Fireball necked down.

These are very efficient both running costs and ballistically.

[Westy]

I'm just looking for a nice light quite round to shoot foxes and bunies out past 150meter any othe ideas????

[Oldbloke]

Warrigul. Do you still have the load data for the "I used to load a .22 magnum projectile in the .223 down to about 2400fps for use close to town" I had a look in the ADI manual and didn't see an equivalent.

I'm thinking of trying it out

[Warrigul]

Warrigul. Do you still have the load data for the "I used to load a .22 magnum projectile in the .223 down to about 2400fps for use close to town" I had a look in the ADI manual and didn't see an equivalent.

I'm thinking of trying it out

I generally don't give load data out(because there are so many variables and dangers) but for the 40 grainer I use AR2205.

I will have a look on my old computer for a few target pictures.

[Apollo]

Warrigul. Do you still have the load data for the "I used to load a .22 magnum projectile in the .223 down to about 2400fps for use close to town" I had a look in the ADI manual and didn't see an equivalent.
I'm thinking of trying it out

If you want to experiment with reducing velocities by around 1/3 and powder loads, yet alone using a powder not recommended for the cartridge I would suggest you send ADI an Email to ask their advice.

[Oldbloke]

Might do that. Im very aware that reduced loads can detonate with very nasty results. Will see what warrigul comes up with too.

[Apollo]

Im very aware that reduced loads can detonate with very nasty results.

Perhaps you are thinking of "Secondary Explosive Effect" which happens with reduced loads of "Slow" burn rate powders.

[Kater]

Perhaps you are thinking of "Secondary Explosive Effect" which happens with reduced loads of "Slow" burn rate powders.

Supposedly.

Still yet to see a reproducible test proving this though.

Seems like there's more to it than just that to me.

[Oldbloke]

Apollo is correct, it seems to happen with slow burning powders when you have a reduced charge with a lot of air space. And I believe it is a rare event. I think the burn becomes uncontrolled and a much faster rate than normal. This is perhaps because at the start of ignition the remaining powder is pushed like a wave up onto the air space crating a "cloud" with a greater amount of powder surface area than normal exposed to heat. A bit like dust explosions in silos. I may be wrong but I thought they were were considered detonations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonation

In any case I want to avoid that possibility. I will contact ADI.

[Apollo]

I would be interested if you could share the ADI responce.

Not that it's on topic but the SEE is not really proven under test conditions but it is a real risk of happening just like you say, like dust in a silo.

Greatly reduced fast powder loads I have no idea as I don't experiment with either way but I'd go along with some more common things I have found mentioned like inconsistant burn, velocity and accuracy since it poses the problem of where that reduced charge of powder sits in the cartridge case at the time of detonation. Like at the back sitting on the primer, laying along the side or up behind the seated bullet.

Not going to comment further on what is or is not safe as I do not have the expertise or knowledge.

[Kater]

Apollo is correct, it seems to happen with slow burning powders when you have a reduced charge with a lot of air space.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened but there has to be more it than that.

Not that it's on topic but the SEE is not really proven under test conditions but it is a real risk of happening just like you say, like dust in a silo.

That's the sticking point for me

Light charges may be part of the issue, but they can't be the only factor. If they were, you would be able to be reproduced it over and over.

For example... ADI data for 150gr .308 is 44gr - 47gr with 2208.

If a light charge was the sole cause then you could load charges at 43, 42, 41, 40, 39 etc. all the way down to zero, fire them all and find the point where SEE occurs.

Say it's 20gr... If you load up a pile of 20gr cartridges and the powder charge was the only problem, you should be able to get SEE to occur repeatedly.

If it was that easy, I'm sure all the powder manufacturers would have cracked it ages ago and could/would tell us exactly where the problem lies. I'm sure they'd be extremely keen to test and prove it if they could.

Again, not saying it doesn't happen, but I think people are too quick to blame things on SEE. Even more so when there is a picture of the aftermath of an explosion on a forum or something, and tonnes of people jump in saying it's SEE when they actually know nothing about what happened are are just looking at a picture of a ruptured rifle.

Not having a go at anyone here with that last comment, just an observation from elsewhere.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. I'm certainly not advocating going below manufacturer load data or saying it's safe to do so or anything to that effect... I just think there is something more to it than blaming a light powder charge. You never know what people did/didn't do to their rifles/cartridges before these things happened.

[Warrigul]

Not going to comment further on what is or is not safe as I do not have the expertise or knowledge.

Good.

[Oldbloke]

Yep, probably is a lot more to it.

[Westy]

Back To Topic...

Hey Oldbloke, look under Trail Boss in the ADI reloading book for .223, it'll alleviate all your angst with flash-over and give you a quieter round!

Now more about the hornet?

[Bills Shed]

I'm just looking for a nice light quite round to shoot foxes and bunies out past 150meter any othe ideas?

Hi Westy,

I have the K- hornet and have acquired a 17 hornet a couple of months ago...

Both are great calibres but I must admit the 17 is the first one that I grab at the moment. It is so fast and flat. You see the result of the shot before the recoil is felt. Recoil is very slight.

I do not shoot factory ammo and all are reloads. Rolled a rabbit last week well in excess of 200m. Drop is only 2.2" at 200m. Makes short work of light skinned animals. It will give you over 750 shots out of a 500 gram tin.

Bill

[keen]

Is 17HMR ammo not cheap enough that you'd just use factory ammo?

I thought that was kind of the idea of rimfire...

[Wobble]

.22 LR ammo is peanuts (You know this obviously, I see you have a 22LR in your signature).

.22 mag, .17 HMR etc. though is still 2-3 times the price.

Not that you'd call that "expensive" but it is more...

[Bills Shed]

Is 17HMR ammo not cheap enough that you'd just use factory ammo?

I thought that was kind of the idea of rimfire...

I have never owned a 17 HMR but I know that it is expensive to just throw the brass away. If you swage your own jacketed projectiles the KHornet is only about 4 cents per shot more to shoot than the long rifle.

The projectile is cheaper than the primer.

I love my little 22LR but if you want to reach out a bit the hornet family fit the bill nicely.

Bill

[keen]

Thanks Bill.

[Norton]

Is 17HMR ammo not cheap enough that you'd just use factory ammo?

I thought that was kind of the idea of rimfire...

It's still well cheaper than centrefire, but expensive as far as rimfire goes.

[Westy]

Well took the 22 Hornet out for it's maiden voyage this weekend and it proformed better than expected,was a awesome little shooter and seemed to preform way above it weight,All I can say is "LOVED IT" and now who wants to buy a Tikka 223 super varmint!!!!LOL

[Chronos]

now who wants to buy a Tikka 223 super varmit!!!!LOL

I'd say this guy

First .223 bolt action

Chronos

[Lorgar]

Good stuff Westy.

We all knew you were going to be happy with an Anschütz though