Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Rimfire bolt action rifles, lever action, pump action and self loading rifles. Air rifles.

Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by beepar » 13 Jan 2014, 11:26 am

Hi guys,

Hopefully someone can clear this up for me.

I get that you shouldn't dry fire a 22 because the pin expects to hit the back of the brass and cushion some of the blow. If you fire it without a case in the chamber the pin slams into the inside of the bolt instead of whatever.

I read the pins break because they are hardened? I guess harder means stronger, so why do they break because of this?

Or why not use regular steel that's not hardened?

Cheers.
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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by Noisydad » 13 Jan 2014, 12:10 pm

Harder steel often means more brittle as well unless its case hardened which means its got a hard surface with a softer core.
There's still a few of Wile. E Coyote's ideas that I haven't tried yet.
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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by yoshie » 13 Jan 2014, 12:16 pm

Hardened as in work hardened. Like continually bending a coat hanger,
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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by beepar » 13 Jan 2014, 2:36 pm

I don't know what kind of hardened. Just going on some passing comments in other subjects.

Just "firing pins are hardened" is all the info I'm going on.
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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by Bourt » 13 Jan 2014, 2:43 pm

Don't forget there is "hard" and then there is "strong".

e.g. diamond is the "hardest" material on earth, but you can easily smash one with your boot on a hard floor.

Try to do the same thing with cube of steel and you'll just farkakt your ankle.

All relative to what you're doing with it.
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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by Hilux2003 » 14 Jan 2014, 10:00 pm

You should never 'dry fire' any firearm unless it has a "setting" (some airguns & competition Rimfire's) for this practice, unless there is something in the chamber to absorb some of the impact of the firing pin.

Both centrefire & rimfires - you risk fracturing the firing pin if it is too brittle (some are prone to this due to the manufacturing process).

Rimfires are prone to damage the back edge of the chamber when 'dry fired' - the firing pin is supposed to crush the rim of the case, which is right on the edge of the chamber.
The firing pin "should stop" before striking the back edge of the chamber but if the firing pin protrusion is "too much" & with no case in the chamber, the pin will impact the back edge of the chamber.
Normal barrel steel is not that hard & with a case hardened firing pin (the surface of the steel is very hard but the centre is relatively soft) - the pin will dint the barrel. This damage caused hard chambering, difficult extraction & really 'stuffs up accuracy' in a rimfire.

If 'dry firing practicing' it's .22LR & a timed match you need to be on the ball to be competitive. Get some .22LR dummys, snap caps, whatever they are called, I've seen them about - ask at you local gun shop. For centrefire, I just full length the cases (old ones), seat a bullet & fill the primer hole with silicon (roof & gutter or whatever is on hand). This saves a lot of wear (& worry about breakages).
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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by Chronos » 15 Jan 2014, 7:35 am

Bourt wrote:Don't forget there is "hard" and then there is "strong".

e.g. diamond is the "hardest" material on earth, but you can easily smash one with your boot on a hard floor.

Try to do the same thing with cube of steel and you'll just farkakt your ankle.

All relative to what you're doing with it.


Don't know what kind of diamonds you're buying. LOL

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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by Warrigul » 15 Jan 2014, 1:52 pm

Hilux2003 wrote:You should never 'dry fire' any firearm unless it has a "setting" (some airguns & competition Rimfire's) for this practice, unless there is something in the chamber to absorb some of the impact of the firing pin.

Both centrefire & rimfires - you risk fracturing the firing pin if it is too brittle (some are prone to this due to the manufacturing process).


If 'dry firing practicing' it's .22LR & a timed match you need to be on the ball to be competitive. Get some .22LR dummys, snap caps, whatever they are called, I've seen them about - ask at you local gun shop. For centrefire, I just full length the cases (old ones), seat a bullet & fill the primer hole with silicon (roof & gutter or whatever is on hand). This saves a lot of wear (& worry about breakages).
.


Look I agree totatlly that dry firing a .22 can be bad(depending on model, some are fine) but:

Dry firing a centerfire (after you have made 100% sure it is unloaded of course)is perfectly safe, though if you don't wish to do so it is your choice. It is one of those facts based on opinion that go around in circles and really only benefit snap cap manufacturers.

In actual fact it is not the primer that stops the firing pin in a centerfire (otherwise we would have ruptured primers left right and center) but the bolt shoulder itself, the same one it hits when we dry fire. If the pin were so brittle that a sudden stop was going to snap it off then we would be in trouble.

I have dry fired my center fires more than I have ever shot live rounds and have never had an issue. I also know many people who also do this and have never had an issue. My Omark is on its third barrel but still has the original firing pin and bolt(I change the springs regularly though).

However if you wish to be cautious then there is no harm in that and there is room in this world for more than one opinion.
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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by on_one_wheel » 15 Jan 2014, 7:55 pm

Warrigul wrote:
Hilux2003 wrote:You should never 'dry fire' any firearm unless it has a "setting" (some airguns & competition Rimfire's) for this practice, unless there is something in the chamber to absorb some of the impact of the firing pin.

Both centrefire & rimfires - you risk fracturing the firing pin if it is too brittle (some are prone to this due to the manufacturing process).


If 'dry firing practicing' it's .22LR & a timed match you need to be on the ball to be competitive. Get some .22LR dummys, snap caps, whatever they are called, I've seen them about - ask at you local gun shop. For centrefire, I just full length the cases (old ones), seat a bullet & fill the primer hole with silicon (roof & gutter or whatever is on hand). This saves a lot of wear (& worry about breakages).
.


Look I agree totatlly that dry firing a .22 can be bad(depending on model, some are fine) but:

Dry firing a centerfire (after you have made 100% sure it is unloaded of course)is perfectly safe, though if you don't wish to do so it is your choice. It is one of those facts based on opinion that go around in circles and really only benefit snap cap manufacturers.

In actual fact it is not the primer that stops the firing pin in a centerfire (otherwise we would have ruptured primers left right and center) but the bolt shoulder itself, the same one it hits when we dry fire. If the pin were so brittle that a sudden stop was going to snap it off then we would be in trouble.

I have dry fired my center fires more than I have ever shot live rounds and have never had an issue. I also know many people who also do this and have never had an issue. My Omark is on its third barrel but still has the original firing pin and bolt(I change the springs regularly though).

However if you wish to be cautious then there is no harm in that and there is room in this world for more than one opinion.



Totally agree with Warrigul on this one .... rimfire never, centerfire when ever.

You will dry fire your .22 from time to time " was that 4 shots or 5 ?" ..... click ......

I must have done that 50 times during the life of my .22 bruno and can see a witness mark on the side of the barrell face but no evedince of mushrooming on the firing pin.
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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by VICHunter » 16 Jan 2014, 8:32 am

Hilux2003 wrote:You should never 'dry fire' any firearm unless it has a "setting" (some airguns & competition Rimfire's) for this practice, unless there is something in the chamber to absorb some of the impact of the firing pin....

Get some .22LR dummys, snap caps, whatever they are called...


I just hand feed spent 22 cases and rotate them. Bit of a pain but you can get 4-5 shots out of 1 brass and save your rifle the pain of dry firing.
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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by Bourt » 16 Jan 2014, 8:37 am

Chronos wrote:
Bourt wrote:Don't forget there is "hard" and then there is "strong".

e.g. diamond is the "hardest" material on earth, but you can easily smash one with your boot on a hard floor.

Try to do the same thing with cube of steel and you'll just farkakt your ankle.

All relative to what you're doing with it.


Don't know what kind of diamonds you're buying. LOL


Just cheapies to entertain myself. That's my usual Friday night... Hanging out and stomping diamonds :lol:

Ok, "easily smash" might have been overselling it :)

What I meant to say is that despite it's hardness, it's easily cracked compared to an equal part of steel, despite the steel being softer.

My point being that "hard" and "strong" are relative terms depending on their intended use and how much abuse something can take.
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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by Warrigul » 16 Jan 2014, 10:51 am

VICHunter wrote:
Hilux2003 wrote:You should never 'dry fire' any firearm unless it has a "setting" (some airguns & competition Rimfire's) for this practice, unless there is something in the chamber to absorb some of the impact of the firing pin....

Get some .22LR dummys, snap caps, whatever they are called...


I just hand feed spent 22 cases and rotate them. Bit of a pain but you can get 4-5 shots out of 1 brass and save your rifle the pain of dry firing.


This is what I do, I do have some "proper" .22 snap caps but save them for action and feed testing, even the proper .22lr snap caps wear out rather quickly when fire testing.
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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by Chronos » 16 Jan 2014, 11:17 am

Bourt wrote:
Chronos wrote:
Bourt wrote:Don't forget there is "hard" and then there is "strong".

e.g. diamond is the "hardest" material on earth, but you can easily smash one with your boot on a hard floor.

Try to do the same thing with cube of steel and you'll just farkakt your ankle.

All relative to what you're doing with it.


Don't know what kind of diamonds you're buying. LOL


Just cheapies to entertain myself. That's my usual Friday night... Hanging out and stomping diamonds :lol:

Ok, "easily smash" might have been overselling it :)

What I meant to say is that despite it's hardness, it's easily cracked compared to an equal part of steel, despite the steel being softer.

My point being that "hard" and "strong" are relative terms depending on their intended use and how much abuse something can take.



Ha ha. I had an image of you in you mil surp GP boots stomping around your kitchen stamping diamonds into the linoleum floor trying to smash one.

I knew what you meant, its been told to me by a jeweller that diamond engagements rings can be chipped, changing the weight of the stone.

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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by ebr love » 16 Jan 2014, 2:25 pm

VICHunter wrote:I just hand feed spent 22 cases and rotate them. Bit of a pain but you can get 4-5 shots out of 1 brass and save your rifle the pain of dry firing.


Ditto.

Some people advocate taking out the firing pin for dry firing to avoid damage, but as if you could be bothered disassembling your bolt to dry fire it half a dozen times.

Spent cases FTW.
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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by on_one_wheel » 16 Jan 2014, 8:38 pm

I bought some .22 snapp caps and was suprised how easily they got chewed in service.
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Re: Hardened firing pins and dry firing a 22

Post by VICHunter » 17 Jan 2014, 2:34 pm

Yeah they go pretty fast, 15 fires or something.

Just as easy to used fired brass IMO as I previously said, and no need to buy them.
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