.22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 5:07 pm

Never had bore guides when I bought my Brno Mod 2, I still don't have a bore guide for it, seems to shoot fine not that I clean it much, :unknown:
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by deanp100 » 14 Dec 2018, 8:12 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Diamond Jim wrote:Ummm.... not doubting your experience but I've cleaned my 452 many times with no apparent ill-effect. I use a "Possum Hollow" rod guide, brass brush, solvent, patches etc. The ejector doesn't seem to come into the equation.


Brass brush for cleaning a .22LR bore? I don't even use a nylon brush in the .22's, just soak with solvent and patch out until clean.

Irrespective of what is needed, brass or nylon should not have damaged a steel barrel first time. I reckon you could nearly stick a rat tail file up a barrel once and not do anything. After all they are steel. So what did the damage., the scratches in rod then passing through the bore. Still doesn’t sound right. Are you sure the gunsmith isn’t having a go.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by bladeracer » 14 Dec 2018, 8:16 pm

deanp100 wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Diamond Jim wrote:Ummm.... not doubting your experience but I've cleaned my 452 many times with no apparent ill-effect. I use a "Possum Hollow" rod guide, brass brush, solvent, patches etc. The ejector doesn't seem to come into the equation.


Brass brush for cleaning a .22LR bore? I don't even use a nylon brush in the .22's, just soak with solvent and patch out until clean.


Irrespective of what is needed, brass or nylon should not have damaged a steel barrel first time. I reckon you could nearly stick a rat tail file up a barrel once and not do anything. After all they are steel. So what did the damage., the scratches in rod then passing through the bore. Still doesn’t sound right. Are you sure the gunsmith isn’t having a go.


I'm not suggesting any brush would damage the bore, simply surprised that anybody has a .22 that requires brushes to clean.
He said that the rod being forced to the right side of the chamber by the ejector damaged the leade on that side.

I would want to see how it shoots before determining it was actually "damaged", no point replacing a barrel that still shoots.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by deanp100 » 14 Dec 2018, 9:10 pm

If he had a brush on it would have centred the rod as well. I don’t get that a scratched or misaligned rod, no matter how hard it is jammed to one side is going to do anything detrimental on one occasion. After years of use maybe .I say shoot it as well.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by Diamond Jim » 18 Dec 2018, 2:14 am

"Brass brush for cleaning a .22LR bore? I don't even use a nylon brush in the .22's, just soak with solvent and patch out until clean."

It's just what I do with my rifles. Doesn't seem to do any harm. Give 'em a scrub, solvent and patch until clean. Oil before putting in the safe. In my centrefires I use Sweets for copper fouling.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by No1_49er » 18 Dec 2018, 12:26 pm

Seems some people doubt the need to use a brush to clean a 22 RF barrel.
After passing a number of clean patches through a barrel, and seeing no more (apparent) evidence of anything remaining, take the time to push a clean bronze brush through, and watch the dust cloud that forms as the brush exits the muzzle.
If you think that is "nothing", then go right ahead and use your "non-method". There IS sh1t in there that needs to be removed.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by bladeracer » 18 Dec 2018, 12:45 pm

No1_49er wrote:Seems some people doubt the need to use a brush to clean a 22 RF barrel.
After passing a number of clean patches through a barrel, and seeing no more (apparent) evidence of anything remaining, take the time to push a clean bronze brush through, and watch the dust cloud that forms as the brush exits the muzzle.
If you think that is "nothing", then go right ahead and use your "non-method". There IS sh1t in there that needs to be removed.


Does the remaining dust cloud affect the accuracy though?
I don't clean a bore to make it clean, I clean it to make it shoot accurately again.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 18 Dec 2018, 1:40 pm

But thr million dollar situation is how often to clean a 22lr barrel. Mone is close to 700 rounds since last clean.... I can see some particles in barrel
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by bladeracer » 18 Dec 2018, 2:57 pm

Ziad wrote:But thr million dollar situation is how often to clean a 22lr barrel. Mine is close to 700 rounds since last clean.... I can see some particles in barrel


With my Rugers I'm going around 1500rds before having any issues. I went close to 3000rds with the Target model recently and was still hitting longer-range targets despite the grouping opening up a little.

I scored a case of CCI Std Vel yesterday for $500 :-)
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 18 Dec 2018, 4:11 pm

bladeracer wrote:
No1_49er wrote:Seems some people doubt the need to use a brush to clean a 22 RF barrel.
After passing a number of clean patches through a barrel, and seeing no more (apparent) evidence of anything remaining, take the time to push a clean bronze brush through, and watch the dust cloud that forms as the brush exits the muzzle.
If you think that is "nothing", then go right ahead and use your "non-method". There IS sh1t in there that needs to be removed.


Does the remaining dust cloud affect the accuracy though?
I don't clean a bore to make it clean, I clean it to make it shoot accurately again.


The "dust" is burnt carbon and that is what holds atmospheric moisture against the steel, eventually resulting in rust. Do you live in a dry part of Oz, bladeracer? If so, that might be why your barrels don't rust. I live near the Pacific north of Bris, where the air is salty and humid. Perfect recipe for rust.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by bladeracer » 18 Dec 2018, 4:42 pm

Wm.Traynor wrote:The "dust" is burnt carbon and that is what holds atmospheric moisture against the steel, eventually resulting in rust. Do you live in a dry part of Oz, bladeracer? If so, that might be why your barrels don't rust. I live near the Pacific north of Bris, where the air is salty and humid. Perfect recipe for rust.


Are you saying that a .22LR bore will rust despite the coating of bullet lubricant? I can't recall ever seeing that. I would think scraping the lube out of the bore is more likely to result in rusting.
I wouldn't say Central Gippsland is dry :-)
But I do shoot very, very regularly.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 18 Dec 2018, 7:25 pm

Yes, the bore of my late lamented 452 rusted because I did not clean it. By that I mean, including oiling after cleaning. Maybe you don't give it time to rust?
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by in2anity » 18 Dec 2018, 7:30 pm

bladeracer wrote:I scored a case of CCI Std Vel yesterday for $500 :-)

Good price- where’d you score that?
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by bladeracer » 18 Dec 2018, 7:52 pm

Wm.Traynor wrote:Yes, the bore of my late lamented 452 rusted because I did not clean it. By that I mean, including oiling after cleaning. Maybe you don't give it time to rust?


I have a lot of rifles, and can't shoot them all every week, some sit in the safe for months.
No sign of any rust, although I did notice a tiny patch of "roughness" on the front barrel band of the Henry the other day. Couldn't really determine it is rust but I gave it some gun grease to be safe.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by bladeracer » 18 Dec 2018, 8:05 pm

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:I scored a case of CCI Std Vel yesterday for $500 :-)

Good price- where’d you score that?


My dealer that closed his shop down in September.
I was placing an order with Rebels but I know he's stopped working while he finishes emptying the shop out. Thought he might be able to use some cash so I rang, told him what I was ordering and that I was happy to give the money to him if he could supply it. I was actually thinking that he's going up to Melbourne to collect my rifles from Border Force anyway, maybe he could combine it with collecting an order of ammo/powders/primers and put some extra cash in his pocket. He can't be arsed ordering via distributors anymore, but said he was still going through his stocks and would let me know what he's got left.

He also found 4kg of AR2206H for me, but when I picked it up yesterday I asked what was in the bottom of the box. He thought it was empty but we checked, another ten bottles of AR2206H :-)
So I brought home 10kg of powders (grabbed some AR2213SC as well), and he found 5000 primers ($200!), and a brick of CCI Quiet - turned into quite a haul.

He still has some DG stuff he's toting up.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by lee_enfield223 » 23 Dec 2018, 4:06 pm

I would add the extra $ and get a Lilja barrel fitted with a nice custom stock , your 452 action is in MHO better than the current 455's and hatches makes some nice stocks
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by marksman » 23 Dec 2018, 6:47 pm

lee_enfield223 wrote:I would add the extra $ and get a Lilja barrel fitted with a nice custom stock , your 452 action is in MHO better than the current 455's and hatches makes some nice stocks


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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by bigrich » 23 Dec 2018, 8:23 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Wm.Traynor wrote:The "dust" is burnt carbon and that is what holds atmospheric moisture against the steel, eventually resulting in rust. Do you live in a dry part of Oz, bladeracer? If so, that might be why your barrels don't rust. I live near the Pacific north of Bris, where the air is salty and humid. Perfect recipe for rust.


Are you saying that a .22LR bore will rust despite the coating of bullet lubricant? I can't recall ever seeing that. I would think scraping the lube out of the bore is more likely to result in rusting.
I wouldn't say Central Gippsland is dry :-)
But I do shoot very, very regularly.


i know a fella on here who was passed down his uncles voere 22lr . i think it was a late 60's early 70's model. had a couple of boxes of lead projectiles put down it, then sat under uncles bed for about thirty years . no rust in the bore and it shoots one hole groups . i believe the lead and lubricant coating acts to stop rust. i only shoot lead projectiles and i only use a nylon brush and "push" the dust out the end of the barrel with maybe three passes. then one ore two dry patches and i'm done . i try not to disturb the "leading" in the barrel by cleaning too hard. :drinks: :thumbsup:
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by bladeracer » 23 Dec 2018, 8:43 pm

bigrich wrote:i know a fella on here who was passed down his uncles voere 22lr . i think it was a late 60's early 70's model. had a couple of boxes of lead projectiles put down it, then sat under uncles bed for about thirty years . no rust in the bore and it shoots one hole groups . i believe the lead and lubricant coating acts to stop rust. i only shoot lead projectiles and i only use a nylon brush and "push" the dust out the end of the barrel with maybe three passes. then one ore two dry patches and i'm done . i try not to disturb the "leading" in the barrel by cleaning too hard. :drinks: :thumbsup:


The bore of a .22LR will be coated with lube, not lead. I would expect there to be virtually no lead at all in there due to the amount of lube used on most .22LR ammo.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by Oldbloke » 23 Dec 2018, 8:45 pm

Bills Shed wrote:I agree something is not right here. It takes a lot of effort to mess up rifling and I doubt a brass jag and a coated rod could do that damage in one go.
Just my 2 cents

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Agree, brass or nylon brush will never.stuff a barrel. Waaay to soft.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by bigrich » 24 Dec 2018, 6:03 am

bladeracer wrote:
bigrich wrote:i know a fella on here who was passed down his uncles voere 22lr . i think it was a late 60's early 70's model. had a couple of boxes of lead projectiles put down it, then sat under uncles bed for about thirty years . no rust in the bore and it shoots one hole groups . i believe the lead and lubricant coating acts to stop rust. i only shoot lead projectiles and i only use a nylon brush and "push" the dust out the end of the barrel with maybe three passes. then one ore two dry patches and i'm done . i try not to disturb the "leading" in the barrel by cleaning too hard. :drinks: :thumbsup:


The bore of a .22LR will be coated with lube, not lead. I would expect there to be virtually no lead at all in there due to the amount of lube used on most .22LR ammo.


there would have to be some lead build-up in the bore otherwise why would cleaning affect accuracy in some rifles so much ? i'm a firm believer in not cleaning 22lr's that just shoot lead. i used to clean , but after a bit of experimenting , accuracy is definately better with a "seasoned" barrel. at least in my case in my rifle
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by simpsonhey » 30 Dec 2018, 5:39 am

What about a snake
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by straightshooter » 30 Dec 2018, 6:05 am

The subject of this thread reminds me of a XXXX beer commercial many years ago.
(I'll leave the joke about why it is labelled XXXX to somebody else to tell.)
The commercial has a couple of blokes with a ute tray as full of XXXX cartons as possible and then one of them puts on a box of lemonade, "for the ladies", which causes the wheels on the ute to fall off.
If you believe that commercial then you will also believe that a single 'incompetent' cleaning will destroy a barrel.
EDIT
Unless of course the cleaning was done with a file, screwdriver or similar implement.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by wildcard6 » 08 Jan 2019, 1:23 pm

Just to finish off this thread, I got my CZ back after having it re-chambered and it's shooting great again. To the person who thought it was impossible to damage the rifling with a single clean, you have no idea how hard I pushed the cleaning rod up the barrel! I was determined to use that bloody rod-guide that I'd bought. It was the front edge of the rod that did the damage, with me pushing like crazy to get it up the barrel. The rifle went from being able to hit the tiny scoped rimfire rifle chickens at 100m to NOT being able to hit the RAMS at the same distance twice in a row. The missing rifling was tearing bits of bullet away as it passed over the damaged area and throwing mad fliers most of the time. With a 20mm shorter barrel and a nice tight new chamber, I'm zotting those chickens again! END.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by deanp100 » 08 Jan 2019, 7:05 pm

Your barrel must have been made out of wood.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by Diamond Jim » 09 Jan 2019, 2:28 am

I can't discount your experience but i find it hard to reconcile with my own. Never had a barrel destroyed - ever - and certainly not from cleaning - properly!
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jan 2019, 9:41 am

Diamond Jim wrote:I can't discount your experience but i find it hard to reconcile with my own. Never had a barrel destroyed - ever - and certainly not from cleaning - properly!


I don't recall ever causing barrel problems myself, but I have two rifles with significant problems.

My father-in-law's Remington 510 he got on his 14th birthday in 1940. The very best groups I've managed with it are about 6" or so, at 25m, scoped, with its favourite ammo. I put some jacketed .224" bullets through it and it shot about 2" at 25m from memory with open sights, much better anyhow. So I pushed a .224" bullet through the bore. It was tight-ish at the first and last couple inches, it floated through the main part of the bore. It seems he spent decades "fishing" with it, stick the muzzle in the water, when a fish gets close, pull the trigger, collect the stunned fish. It's just one continuous bulge.

And my Type 38 Arisaka is totally shot out. They have an unusual rifling system copied from the Lee-Metford, polygonal rather than grooved, but mine has no discernible rifling at all, and slugs .006" over-size, and shoots as you'd expect. What always dumbfounds me when I see one of these, is how did it get so worn out. It must've had many thousands of rounds put down the tube long after accuracy went out the window, so what were they shooting at? In battle it's certainly possible to destroy the barrel in a relatively low round-count due to the intense heat of firing hundreds or thousands of rounds in very short periods, and I doubt the Japanese had anywhere that could refurbish their rifles after about '43, so it likely would've stayed on the line until it was destroyed or captured. And as they were fighting at extremely close ranges, accuracy would still have been easily acceptable. I'm reading "Shots Fired in Anger: A Rifleman's View of the War in the Pacific, 1942-1945" just now, excellent book. It's rare to read accounts of battle written by a true firearms enthusiast. He liked the Type 38 Carbine and carried one for a time on Guadalcanal.

It is certainly possible to damage a barrel, but I don't think it's very common. Even bent barrels often still shoot quite well. I would think most easily outlast their owners.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by Stix » 09 Jan 2019, 10:50 pm

I also have a CZ 452 that suffered the problem with the ejector.
Some of them are too big (the ejector) & it sticks up well into the line of the bore....no correct fitting bore guide will correct it.
Rather the ejector needs to be filed down.

Mine ruined 2 rods, a .22 & a .17 before realising the problem.

Ive often wondered if i was the only one out there who ended up with an oversize ejector.
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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by bigrich » 10 Jan 2019, 4:42 am

My Cz is the same stix. I tried a bore guide a couple of times, then stopped using it. I had trouble getting the jag past the ejector. Once past the ejector it worked okay, but forcing anything into a rifle doesn’t sound like a good idea to me :unknown:

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Re: .22 rimfire barrel cleaning. Costly mistake.

Post by Wm.Traynor » 10 Jan 2019, 10:48 am

Stix wrote:Ive often wondered if i was the only one out there who ended up with an oversize ejector.


I have gone to great lengths with my 455 and have made two detachable ejectors. So far, so good. :D
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