Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by cracker » 22 Apr 2019, 6:14 pm

Wombat wrote:The Savage is a blowback semi with a bolt hold open. The speed is dependent on your coordination between release and trigger, some skill is admittedly required. After a couple of magazines I was getting ten shot 50 meter groups around playing card size just as fast as I could pre 96.
Should I forget my hands on experience and alter my comment in line with "wot some bloke had on his phone"? FFS.

only thing i can get close to a semi speedwise is a browning trombone off the hip... completely pointless other then smiles value
dont get too hung up on how fast, doesnt really matter
even mag dumping a semi auto 22lr kinda just results in a shotgun pattern with me anyway
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by mickb » 22 Apr 2019, 8:36 pm

Wombat wrote:The Savage is a blowback semi with a bolt hold open. The speed is dependent on your coordination between release and trigger, some skill is admittedly required.


The speed of the savage is always limited by needing finger repositioning in between shots which is why its twice as slow as revolvers and probably 3x slower than gas operated semi-autos. I have used all three, go back and read the above posts.


After a couple of magazines I was getting ten shot 50 meter groups around playing card size just as fast as I could pre 96.


I shoot 10/22 post 96. Not all of us were stuck with Cat AB in Australia bud. Being able to shoot a lot of rounds quickly is useful for some people and I dont see any workers choosing an "interrupted action savage" when they can have the real deal, just because some fella reckons its as good for shooting cards....

Should I forget my hands on experience and alter my comment in line with "wot some bloke had on his phone"? FFS.


No you should just relax when folks quote you. No one is claiming semi-autos are the best action or they even outshoot other actions at certain ranges.
My point was just about "action speed" thats all. And the savage A22 is not close to semi-auto for a lot of the ways these things can be used.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by mickb » 22 Apr 2019, 9:24 pm

cracker wrote:
Wombat wrote:The Savage is a blowback semi with a bolt hold open. The speed is dependent on your coordination between release and trigger, some skill is admittedly required. After a couple of magazines I was getting ten shot 50 meter groups around playing card size just as fast as I could pre 96.
Should I forget my hands on experience and alter my comment in line with "wot some bloke had on his phone"? FFS.

only thing i can get close to a semi speedwise is a browning trombone off the hip... completely pointless other then smiles value
dont get too hung up on how fast, doesnt really matter
even mag dumping a semi auto 22lr kinda just results in a shotgun pattern with me anyway


The revolver gets closest to gas operated semi autos and is still in a relatively stable firing position, The heaviness of the double action trigger aka the fact your finger is doing all the work in cycling the action means they do run slower than 10/22 etc.

The thingis Austalia has an entire generation now who never had a chance to use S/A and a couple of older generations forgetting just how much they wished they still had them ;)

No one claims they will outshoot other actions at various ranges. The higher the degree of accuracy or mutliplicity of targets at range, the more the rigid slower actions have a chance to catch up as you can work them while you are re-acquiring. Thats beginner obvious.

But the 10/22 isn't one of the most popular 22's ever made because it has no purpose. And all the other myriad S/A 22LR would not exist if they didn't do somethings much better than any other actions in the calibre. And Cat C workers would be handing their guns in or not bothering with all the BS of getting Cat C if something else did the same job. Thats also beginner obvious.

Personally I think having used a lot of them, the revolver comes close but I started deleting my own posts on its speed as it can be fodder or antis or upset people from states who can't have them. I also dont want to go into just what you can with a semi-auto 22LR in close for the same reasons and also because it would upset all the safety concious millenials. You can fire a load of buckshot and be satsfied if half the pellets pattern on an animal and who knows or care if the rest wound the one next to it, but you direct 4-5 rounds of 22LR into one animal rapid fire it suddenly becomes unethical. : :D

But again no point ruining my own hobby or an entire weapon category just for purpose of sounding cool on a web forum. Im bowing out. Good luck to the OP hope you review it if you get a chance. :)
Last edited by mickb on 22 Apr 2019, 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by Wombat » 22 Apr 2019, 9:34 pm

Most people do not have a cat C license, but do have two hands and ten digits. Your shooting hand trigger finger is not required to operate the release.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by mickb » 22 Apr 2019, 9:54 pm

Wombat wrote:Most people do not have a cat C license, but do have two hands and ten digits. Your shooting hand trigger finger is not required to operate the release.


Pulling the two objects with the master hand is heavy and slow mate. Much heavier than the D/A of the revolver and still be slower by a good margin. btw have you actually fired the gun the OP is asking about?
Last edited by mickb on 22 Apr 2019, 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by Wombat » 22 Apr 2019, 9:55 pm

"The revolver gets closest to gas operated semi autos and is still in a relatively stable firing position, The heaviness of the double action trigger aka the fact your finger is doing all the work in cycling the action means they do run slower than 10/22 etc."
So. What are the gas operated .22's? A 10/22 is a blowback semiauto. Even the AR15 conversions for .22lr are blowback.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by Wombat » 22 Apr 2019, 9:58 pm

mickb wrote:
Wombat wrote:Most people do not have a cat C license, but do have two hands and ten digits. Your shooting hand trigger finger is not required to operate the release.


Pulling the two objects with the master hand is heavy and slow mate. Have you actually fired the gun the OP is asking about?


You seem confused. The Bolt release on the Savage does not need to be operated by your trigger finger, or indeed your dominant hand is the point I was trying to convey.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by mickb » 22 Apr 2019, 10:11 pm

Wombat wrote:"The revolver gets closest to gas operated semi autos and is still in a relatively stable firing position, The heaviness of the double action trigger aka the fact your finger is doing all the work in cycling the action means they do run slower than 10/22 etc."
So. What are the gas operated .22's? A 10/22 is a blowback semiauto. Even the AR15 conversions for .22lr are blowback.


I mean the obvious, aka the activity of gas as opposed to mechanical operation. "Blowback is a system of operation for self-loading firearms that obtains energy from the motion ... The blowback principle may be considered a simplified form of gas operation" :lol:

Will we be down to battling typos next, or do you intend to get back to the topic at some point. The Alfa carbine revolver.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by mickb » 22 Apr 2019, 10:26 pm

Wombat wrote:
mickb wrote:
Wombat wrote:Most people do not have a cat C license, but do have two hands and ten digits. Your shooting hand trigger finger is not required to operate the release.


Pulling the two objects with the master hand is heavy and slow mate. Have you actually fired the gun the OP is asking about?


You seem confused. The Bolt release on the Savage does not need to be operated by your trigger finger, or indeed your dominant hand is the point I was trying to convey.


I am highly confused mate anyone thinks whatever they can do with an extra release makes the operation anywhere close to the speed and ease of operation than the semi-auto it was butchered from.

But feel free to post a vid or source one from youtube showing it at speed.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by Dabi » 22 Apr 2019, 10:31 pm

Wombat wrote:
mickb wrote:
Wombat wrote:Most people do not have a cat C license, but do have two hands and ten digits. Your shooting hand trigger finger is not required to operate the release.


Pulling the two objects with the master hand is heavy and slow mate. Have you actually fired the gun the OP is asking about?


You seem confused. The Bolt release on the Savage does not need to be operated by your trigger finger, or indeed your dominant hand is the point I was trying to convey.


I think what mickb meant is that the A22R cannot be operated with an action of a single finger, thus losing speed. The fact that you need two hands operating the action also increases the inaccuracy as you no longer have a firm grip, especially if you try to shoot it offhand. I have also tried cycling the gun with two hands in person and the heavy release lever wobbles my aim a bit, maybe with some practice I'll get quicker and steadier but with the same effort you can shoot a double action revolver much more smoothly.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by Dabi » 22 Apr 2019, 10:33 pm

Not to say that it isn't potentially is a more accurate gun with only 1 chamber instead of 9.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by Wombat » 22 Apr 2019, 10:34 pm

Ok. No. I'm not going to interact any further with a troll. Anyone who owns or has owned (or even used) a 10/22 would not be calling it gas operated.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by cracker » 22 Apr 2019, 10:48 pm

Wombat wrote:Ok. No. I'm not going to interact any further with a troll. Anyone who owns or has owned (or even used) a 10/22 would not be calling it gas operated.

whats is the method of actuating the bolt? its just not a locked bolt its still gas operated.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by Wombat » 22 Apr 2019, 11:11 pm

cracker wrote:
Wombat wrote:Ok. No. I'm not going to interact any further with a troll. Anyone who owns or has owned (or even used) a 10/22 would not be calling it gas operated.

whats is the method of actuating the bolt? its just not a locked bolt its still gas operated.


It is a blowback semi automatic, not a gas operated semi auto or a recoil operated semi auto or an open bolt blowback semi auto.
A gas operated semi auto uses the gas from combustion (usually tapped from towards the muzzle end of the barrel) via a piston and operating rod to work the bolt.
A blowback action could be argued to be Gas operated, equally it could also be argued it is Recoil operated.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by cracker » 22 Apr 2019, 11:23 pm

Wombat wrote:
cracker wrote:
Wombat wrote:Ok. No. I'm not going to interact any further with a troll. Anyone who owns or has owned (or even used) a 10/22 would not be calling it gas operated.

whats is the method of actuating the bolt? its just not a locked bolt its still gas operated.


It is a blowback semi automatic, not a gas operated semi auto or a recoil operated semi auto or an open bolt blowback semi auto.
A gas operated semi auto uses the gas from combustion (usually tapped from towards the muzzle end of the barrel) via a piston and operating rod to work the bolt.
A blowback action could be argued to be Gas operated, equally it could also be argued it is Recoil operated.

meh im not arguing semantics over small arms design.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by Wombat » 23 Apr 2019, 7:10 am

cracker wrote:
Wombat wrote:
cracker wrote:
Wombat wrote:Ok. No. I'm not going to interact any further with a troll. Anyone who owns or has owned (or even used) a 10/22 would not be calling it gas operated.

whats is the method of actuating the bolt? its just not a locked bolt its still gas operated.


It is a blowback semi automatic, not a gas operated semi auto or a recoil operated semi auto or an open bolt blowback semi auto.
A gas operated semi auto uses the gas from combustion (usually tapped from towards the muzzle end of the barrel) via a piston and operating rod to work the bolt.
A blowback action could be argued to be Gas operated, equally it could also be argued it is Recoil operated.

meh im not arguing semantics over small arms design.

Well you did start to. Is it because you consider that your assertion is correct, but that I am intransigent that you want to stop? Or did you actually check and realize your mistake?
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by mickb » 23 Apr 2019, 2:26 pm

Talk about trolling....
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by mickb » 23 Apr 2019, 3:16 pm

Dabi wrote:
I think what mickb meant is that the A22R cannot be operated with an action of a single finger, thus losing speed. The fact that you need two hands operating the action also increases the inaccuracy as you no longer have a firm grip, especially if you try to shoot it offhand. I have also tried cycling the gun with two hands in person and the heavy release lever wobbles my aim a bit, maybe with some practice I'll get quicker and steadier but with the same effort you can shoot a double action revolver much more smoothly.


I agree its not a great way to hold a gun. I had a play with it like that but being able to use real semi-autos it was way too much embuggerance to bother with. The revolver gets a lot closer to 'work levels' which is why I wanted one to let the family play around and take hunting too.

Funnily enough the orginal revolver carbines in the day were often held with both hands back near the action too, when the supporting hand was kept behind the cylinder for safety. One of the reasons the design was extremely unpopular.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by cracker » 26 Apr 2019, 11:34 pm

Wombat wrote:
cracker wrote:
Wombat wrote:
cracker wrote:
Wombat wrote:Ok. No. I'm not going to interact any further with a troll. Anyone who owns or has owned (or even used) a 10/22 would not be calling it gas operated.

whats is the method of actuating the bolt? its just not a locked bolt its still gas operated.


It is a blowback semi automatic, not a gas operated semi auto or a recoil operated semi auto or an open bolt blowback semi auto.
A gas operated semi auto uses the gas from combustion (usually tapped from towards the muzzle end of the barrel) via a piston and operating rod to work the bolt.
A blowback action could be argued to be Gas operated, equally it could also be argued it is Recoil operated.

meh im not arguing semantics over small arms design.

Well you did start to. Is it because you consider that your assertion is correct, but that I am intransigent that you want to stop? Or did you actually check and realize your mistake?


i would consider a auto 5 a recoil actuated gun, where as a 22lr straight blow back more so a gas/recoil operated i guess... im not sure it really matters
the way i look at the operation, one uses recoil to run the action the other gas pressure and recoil i guess. once again semantics.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by mickb » 27 Apr 2019, 4:04 pm

As hey say crackers, when the debate gets too hard, don't get angry, get semantic. :D I'm still waiting for a video of this two handed trigger/trigger release style showing it runs as fast and easily as a semi-auto.... Seriously if the gun did anything like that it would have sold out in stores one week and been banned from imports the second.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by cracker » 27 Apr 2019, 10:11 pm

mickb wrote:As hey say crackers, when the debate gets too hard, don't get angry, get semantic. :D I'm still waiting for a video of this two handed trigger/trigger release style showing it runs as fast and easily as a semi-auto.... Seriously if the gun did anything like that it would have sold out in stores one week and been banned from imports the second.


... it might run well if a part was to wear out...or fail... but that would be recoil operation :thumbsup:

honestly i think they have sold okay... but not as well as the adler did and they are kinda nasty... and some what effective...

id love to see some pictures/strip one down to see how they use the double trigger/bolt release type..thing.
only reason its legal here is because the semi auto was never released...good marketing savage.

im guessing it just has a 2nd trigger that stops the bolt running forward... and then you have your trigger for the firing pin.

the mind wonders at the thought of a jb welded fixed firing pin.
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Re: Alfa Proj Carbine/hunter (revolving carbine)

Post by Cranky247 » 23 Dec 2020, 9:25 am

Do we have any advice on the accuracy of these little revolver rifles? I like weird and different guns but do appreciate some level of accuracy.

I figured I'd add to an existing thread and try to drag it back on topic
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