Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 14 Nov 2019, 5:51 pm

michael_sa wrote:Update.
Until now I hadn't included the dealer in what's been going on, I was wanting to (or 'hoping to') find a resolution to this myself.
...
Last night I wrote an email to the dealer who I bought the LA101 from. I detailed what I'd been experiencing, what I'd tried, what I thought about the rough tooling marks on the gun and put forward what my expectation was (replacement 101 or credit and I'll get the CZ457 which was my second choice). I was totally expecting that I would be told it should get sent back for repair.
My dealer called me at 8.30 this morning, concerned at what I'd experienced and with no hesitation said bring it back and we'll get it swapped over.
So, for now... there ends the saga.


Well, I was pleased by what the dealer told me yesterday, however today I am back in the land of frustration and to be frank, quite p'd off.

I returned the 101 to the dealer this afternoon. While he was filling out some paperwork, I asked if I would need to submit another PTA. He said no, not unless they decide to replace this with another one... I said "What!, I understood it was getting replaced?"
He explained to me it goes to (he mentioned a name, - I was getting annoyed and didn't log the name to memory) but it sounds like it goes to a 3rd party business/gunsmith who looks after warranty issues and determines what the problem is. faark.
This is really starting to tick me off and if the rifling damage that gamerancher mentioned in his comment (above) might be from the dealers actions, well that just ticks me off even more. LA wont be wanting to cover that under warranty...
I'll be emailing the engineer at LA again tonight
Right now, I don't want to see this thing ever again and if it does come back to me, it'll become the most closely photographed LA101 on the internet.

Sorry Gents for the rant... :violin:
Hopefully in a months time I can read back over this thread having had a satisfactory resolution and better outcome than what I'm expecting at the moment.
Getting back into it...

Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Wm.Traynor » 14 Nov 2019, 7:24 pm

michael_sa
Based on the appearance of your bore, I would expect specks of lead on your cleaning patch. Did you experience that?
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 14 Nov 2019, 11:26 pm

Mine went straight back to factory for warranty mate. I’d ring Lithgow, like I did. The dealer only sends rifle back for you. I didn’t want anyone to touch mine other than Lithgow.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Gamerancher » 15 Nov 2019, 6:18 am

It is not unusual for guns to be sent to local gunsmiths for warranty repairs, usually they are manufactured overseas and it is just easier. They are usually authorised repairers for the brand. However, yours is locally made, if the shop is sending it off to anywhere other than the factory, there may be a bit of guilt involved in that damage near the crown.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 15 Nov 2019, 7:55 pm

JimTom wrote:Mine went straight back to factory for warranty mate. I’d ring Lithgow, like I did. The dealer only sends rifle back for you. I didn’t want anyone to touch mine other than Lithgow.


Hi JT,
I emailed LA stating my dissatisfaction and querying what the dealer was intending to do.
Here is the response I received this morning:

Hi Michael,
Actually your dealer has directed you in the correct way- the rifle will be assessed and repaired as nothing that you have described falls into the category of major problem in accordance with ACCC. As the dealer, he is the one with whom the ACCC gives the decision to with regards repair/replacement as it doesn’t have a major defect.

Please also do us the honour of sorting this out for you

Kind regards

Xxxxxxx Xxxxx


I rang my dealer soon after receiving this, I believe he had been contacted already by this same engineer. I again expressed my disappointment to him with their intention of going down the warranty path rather than replacement. It was a short conversation.

I'm very disappointed.
Getting back into it...

Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


In a previous life:
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 15 Nov 2019, 8:00 pm

Wm.Traynor wrote:michael_sa
Based on the appearance of your bore, I would expect specks of lead on your cleaning patch. Did you experience that?


Never noticed it no, but it has only had one proper clean before it's first shoot. It's had about 200 rounds through it.
Getting back into it...

Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


In a previous life:
Winchester Model 70XTR .243W Weaver K6
Franchi 520 12GA
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 15 Nov 2019, 8:05 pm

Gamerancher wrote:It is not unusual for guns to be sent to local gunsmiths for warranty repairs, usually they are manufactured overseas and it is just easier. They are usually authorised repairers for the brand. However, yours is locally made, if the shop is sending it off to anywhere other than the factory, there may be a bit of guilt involved in that damage near the crown.


Hi Gamerancher.
See my reply post to JT above.
No, I think it's going to be 'assessed' by somewhere authorised by LA - at least that's what the email left me thinking

>edited to add: According to them, it doesn't have a "major problem" or "major defect"
I wonder what their definition of a major problem is then? Pull the trigger and it doesn't go bang (5 times in it's first hour)... not a major problem... hm :thumbsdown:
Last edited by michael_sa on 15 Nov 2019, 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 15 Nov 2019, 8:09 pm

Seems quite different to what I experienced. I’d have thought a failure to fire ammunition would be something they would be wanting to sort out themselves, as they did for my accuracy problem. Perplexing. Keep us updated mate.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 15 Nov 2019, 8:44 pm

JimTom wrote:Seems quite different to what I experienced. I’d have thought a failure to fire ammunition would be something they would be wanting to sort out themselves, as they did for my accuracy problem. Perplexing. Keep us updated mate.


:unknown:
How is yours shooting now and are you happy with it?
Getting back into it...

Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


In a previous life:
Winchester Model 70XTR .243W Weaver K6
Franchi 520 12GA
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 16 Nov 2019, 6:40 am

Mate unfortunately I didn’t get to the range, will have to wait another few weeks to find out.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by scoot » 22 Nov 2019, 1:00 pm

Very interested to see the outcome of this situation.....
Sh!7s me to tears the way warranties are handled with regards to firearms. Besides lost time and money, if you haven't got what you've paid for it should be clear cut. Same as any other products you buy at kmart or coles etc. Money back or replacement should be offered straight up, with an option to repair /compensation.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 22 Nov 2019, 6:04 pm

scoot wrote:Very interested to see the outcome of this situation.....
Sh!7s me to tears the way warranties are handled with regards to firearms. Besides lost time and money, if you haven't got what you've paid for it should be clear cut. Same as any other products you buy at kmart or coles etc. Money back or replacement should be offered straight up, with an option to repair /compensation.


Hi scoot, thanks for the reply.
I feel exactly the same was as you do about it. If a product is faulty, it should be replaced or credited without question.
I've worked in the trades all my life, but I now work on the other side of the counter in wholesale trade sales. I routinely credit or replace goods when I get faulty or questionable stuff back from a client and it's usually worth a sh!te load more than the piddly value this one gun would represent to Lithgow Arms.
This entire experience is leaving a really bad taste in my mouth and (my personal feelings aside) I don't feel it's been handled in a way that will (ultimately) reflect well on Lithgow Arms. I know that mine is not an isolated case and I've read of other cases where guns have been sent back and worked on then returned to the customer when they probably should have been replaced. I didn't want a factory second or re-manufactured gun. I wanted one that worked straight up out of the box, I don't think it's reasonable or acceptable to mess your customers around like that - they'll vote with their feet and walk away. Having said that, I really don't see this panning out well for me and I've already fallen out of love with this gun. If I do get the same one back it'll get sold on, I'll take the $ hit and buy something else - irrespective of how straight it shoots. If it does get replaced, which I really doubt will happen (as LA have categorised my gun's fault as not a 'major problem') then I'll give the new one a chance, maybe it'll redeem itself. By the way, the ACCC define a 'major problem' with an item, as one that would have prevented you from purchasing the item in the first place, had you been aware of it. - that's not verbatim quote but very similar words to that.
If I'd have known this thing would misfire 5 times in it's first 70 shots... including it's very first shot, I would not have bought it. I don't think anyone would have. So by my definition that is a major problem.
Anyway, I''m starting to sound a bit like a whinge bag :violin: - going to put this whole thing aside for now and get back to researching the next target pistol acquisition :drinks:
Incidentally, what area of the state are you in scoot? I'm down south coast way - near Victor.
Last edited by michael_sa on 22 Nov 2019, 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by scoot » 22 Nov 2019, 8:15 pm

I'm up in the sticks about 600km north of adelaide. I feel your pain, you pay good money for a supposed premium product only to be treated like a lepper once they have the cash. As firearms owners it just seems expected we'll take it in the tail.
I had a bl22 fail to fire problem develope and after being sent away for 5 months returned no better. Sent away again no update after 3 months till I fronted the rep when he walked into a shop. Within the week I was offered a new replacement..... guess what 2 month wait on new stock....sorted finally but as you said, very dirty taste left behind and I've fallen out of love.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by SckSqzBngBlo » 23 Nov 2019, 7:43 am

It sounds like buying a car, once you have signed your status instantly goes from Prince to Peasant as far as after sales service.
I hope my Lithgow turns out to be a good one.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by skwerl101 » 23 Nov 2019, 2:28 pm

I've been shooting my 101 for over a year now , humorously the very first CCI standard v. put into her misfired - twice . Ever since we have not liked CCI or Aguila ammo , any excessive fouling and rounds won't chamber easily or at all., My preference is RWS Club and Rifle Target . I very much like the gun as it is my favorite playing card splitter . She fits well between my 200m gun (CZ 457 MTR .17 HMR) and my other favorite Sako Finnfire . cheers............ s
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 25 Dec 2019, 12:45 am

Well...
39 days later, I have the Lithgow back.

Bolt body was replaced.
New firing pin with greater protrusion was fitted
Barrel was replaced

I've not had the chance to get to the range with it yet, but it was sent back with a photocopy of a very good looking group from Lithgow's test target.
I'll write a more comprehensive follow up when I've put a few boxes of ammo through it.

Merry Christmas to all.
Getting back into it...

Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


In a previous life:
Winchester Model 70XTR .243W Weaver K6
Franchi 520 12GA
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by allan » 25 Dec 2019, 1:49 pm

Certainly taken a while but that sounding promising, Michael...Hope it now functions and shoots to your expectations.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 04 Jan 2020, 11:13 pm

Hi all.
I spent this morning at the local range.
Shooting at 50 metres with SK Rifle Match ammo.
All went well with no misfires and zero malfunctions - it performed as it should.
I'm pretty happy with the way this thing shoots, happy enough that tonight I installed the trigger spring kit that I've had sitting here for the last (nearly) two months.
The trigger weight has gone from a bit over 1.5kg (about 3.3lbs) to 850 grams (about 1.9lbs) - So needless to say I'm really looking forward to the next range visit to test it out again.

My First test target:
Image

My second test target:
Image

Looks like they forgot to redo the red safety dot after it was refinished:
Image

Firing pin strikes:
Image
Getting back into it...

Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


In a previous life:
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Oldbloke » 05 Jan 2020, 9:03 am

michael_sa wrote:Well...
39 days later, I have the Lithgow back.

Bolt body was replaced.
New firing pin with greater protrusion was fitted
Barrel was replaced
.


They may as well of just replaced it in the first place.
I am constantly concerned the way customers are treated these days. 39 days is pathetic.

And quality has slowly gone back to the bad old days and replaced with "greatolity". Looks great but just doesnt perform.

Hope it works out for you. A couple of the groups look very promising.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Wm.Traynor » 05 Jan 2020, 10:27 am

As Oldbloke says, some of those groups are really good :thumbsup: Interesting pic of the firing pin indents. Are you thinking of altering the profile of the tip, by any chance?
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 05 Jan 2020, 5:52 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
They may as well of just replaced it in the first place.
I am constantly concerned the way customers are treated these days. 39 days is pathetic.

And quality has slowly gone back to the bad old days and replaced with "greatolity". Looks great but just doesnt perform.

Hope it works out for you. A couple of the groups look very promising.


My thoughts too, but I'm old school - I'm probably in denial but I would likely qualify as an Oldbloke myself and yes, as for form over function... shiny and sparkly with rainbows and unicorns seems to be more important than function or longevity these days.
Some of the groups I shot were really good and I'm quite certain if I could lock it in a vice they'd all have been single hole groups, it can shoot way better than what I am capable of.
Thanks for the reply.
Getting back into it...

Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


In a previous life:
Winchester Model 70XTR .243W Weaver K6
Franchi 520 12GA
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Gamerancher » 05 Jan 2020, 5:53 pm

Why would he alter the profile? It has just come back from a factory refurb, one that you'd hope was done with greater scrutiny, it now works and shows promise in the accuracy stakes. Those indents look good to me, crisp, even, good deformation of the rim with a largish foot-print from the firing pin.
Keep shooting, it looks like now "it 'aint broke".
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 05 Jan 2020, 6:54 pm

Wm.Traynor wrote:As Oldbloke says, some of those groups are really good :thumbsup: Interesting pic of the firing pin indents. Are you thinking of altering the profile of the tip, by any chance?


Yeah it can shoot and as I mentioned in my reply to Oldbloke, I reckon it can shoot way better than what I'm capable of. The tighter groups are probably the gun showing it's potential and the other more open groups were likely me messing up.
As for the firing pin profile, so long as it continues to behave I see no reason to change it. It had about 120 rounds through it on Saturday without incident.

I took a lot of measurements and photos of the old internals before it went away for 'assessment' and the new striker/firing pin assy measures about 0.25mm longer than the original.
Image

New firing pin/protrusion:
Image


Those of you who have been following this post from the beginning, will recall that one of my other major gripes with this thing, was the finish on the bolt face and the poor general finish/machine marks left behind in various places.
Here's the new bolt face, still shows some tooling marks but better than the first one. I've worked in engineering workshops and I've operated lathes. Facing off rod stock is pretty difficult to make look ugly - but somehow they achieved it the first time around. This one's not so bad.

Maybe I'm just a fussy grumpy old fart...

Image


Internal machining of the new bolt and old bolt:

New bolt:
Image

old bolt
Image
Getting back into it...

Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


In a previous life:
Winchester Model 70XTR .243W Weaver K6
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 05 Jan 2020, 7:05 pm

Gamerancher wrote:Why would he alter the profile? It has just come back from a factory refurb, one that you'd hope was done with greater scrutiny, it now works and shows promise in the accuracy stakes. Those indents look good to me, crisp, even, good deformation of the rim with a largish foot-print from the firing pin.
Keep shooting, it looks like now "it 'aint broke".


I thought the strikes looked good too. I'm not sure if I have any SK brass shells in the workshop from the old bolt/firing pin assy. I'll check later, I have plenty of fired CCI brass but that might not be apples and apples in a side by side photo comparo.

Yes, aint now broke, it can stay as it is, :thumbsup: :drinks:
Smarter people than me designed this thing (still reserving my opinion of those that put it together though... :silent: )
Thanks for the reply
Getting back into it...

Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


In a previous life:
Winchester Model 70XTR .243W Weaver K6
Franchi 520 12GA
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Bill » 05 Jan 2020, 7:15 pm

michael_sa it looks like a lovey shooter now, yeap machining marks like those on ur rifle shouldnt be the norm these days, still shows that Lithgow is really only a backyard OZ operation despite their history
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 05 Jan 2020, 7:39 pm

Bill wrote:michael_sa it looks like a lovey shooter now, yeap machining marks like those on ur rifle shouldnt be the norm these days, still shows that Lithgow is really only a backyard OZ operation despite their history


Hi Bill.
Sadly, I now agree with you.
I have very fond memories of the Lithgow's from years gone by and maybe I have always been wrong, but I grew up thinking that the Lithgows were good guns because they were made from military steel stock and from their history of manufacturing military arms.
I watched a great YouTube video a while back - (I'll post the links below) from 'Impact Dynamics' they did a walk through of the Lithgow Small Arms Museum guided and narrated by the curator. It's a really interesting watch. My take away from it though... was that the arms factory was just an engineering outfit that will take someone else's design, change it slightly and have a crack at making their own knock offs. If it was in China we'd probably be bagging them out for making fake copies of others designs...
Maybe I'll nick-name the '101 'Rolex' ... :lol:

Part 1: https://youtu.be/IRc4lB-_Mw0
Part 2: https://youtu.be/5aSBFx7gIrs
Part 3: https://youtu.be/-NC_RRxBZUg
Getting back into it...

Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


In a previous life:
Winchester Model 70XTR .243W Weaver K6
Franchi 520 12GA
Ruger 10/22 Sporter
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S&W 686 .357 (x2)


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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Wapiti » 10 Jan 2020, 5:53 am

Michael, looks like you've now got a great shooter and you certainly are a very skilled bench target operator. I can only think that this rifle should have been delivered in this state first time.

Got to say that I was shocked by the awful quality control on the previous bolt and parts collectively, the galling in the boring and on the bolt face and the scratches that look almost amateur quality. I say this as a metal tradesman also. One look says, nope.

The Lithgow centrefires don't appeal to me at all, with their one size fits all giant heavy action, but the rimfires were certainly appealing. Definitely would need to thoroughly inspect any specimen before purchase. Firing pin protrusion, and 0.25mm variation is a massively unacceptable variation and not something the average purchaser can, or should, face for a supposedly premium product.

Great that you got satisfaction finally, but everyone deserves this first time.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 10 Jan 2020, 6:38 am

Wapiti wrote:... Firing pin protrusion, and 0.25mm variation is a massively unacceptable variation and not something the average purchaser can, or should, face for a supposedly premium product.
...


Hi Wapiti, thanks for the comment.
Just a quick clarification, the extra firing pin protrusion was deliberate by Lithgow and noted in the email contact I had with an engineer there.
from Lithgow Arms email they wrote:The bolt body was replaced and a new firing pin with greater protrusion was fitted to give you the best chances possible of avoiding the light striking.

I must say that they were very good with responding to my questions, prompt replies and from someone that knew what was going on.
Getting back into it...

Lithgow LA101 .22RF. Hawke Vantage 6-24x44SF


In a previous life:
Winchester Model 70XTR .243W Weaver K6
Franchi 520 12GA
Ruger 10/22 Sporter
Beretta 76 .22LR
S&W 686 .357 (x2)


On the contemplation list: Beretta 87
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by in2anity » 10 Jan 2020, 9:36 am

Good outcome. She is shooting like she is supposed to. The ~2lb lumley kit is pretty good, certainly better than the factory trigger. Little creepy still. I appreicate the high euro comb on the la101 for standing offhand - my go-to RMS rifle.
I'm a "salt on pizza" kinda guy...
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Wapiti » 10 Jan 2020, 11:57 am

Thanks Michael.
Still to me though, an extra 0.25 to ensure you don't have ignition issues... makes me wonder about all the other owners with whatever they deem is standard acceptable protrusion... anyway it is what it is.

Rimfires (I spose it must be the QC of the ammo made out there) seem to be finnicky things. I raced up my 10/22 recently including a short carbon fibre barrel, new trigger and go fast bolt kit, and it had a lightened firing pin with "more protrusion" for much more reliable primer ignition, whatever that is.

The result was, that the cheap bulk ammo we use for practice that had a lot of primer misfires in our bolt guns as well, suddenly all seemed to be 99% cured.
Still get an odd one in all brands that turn up without priming compound it seems.
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