Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by in2anity » 04 Nov 2019, 8:26 pm

Looking at your shells, it looks like it’s light striking - not sure if different ammo will help. Still, worth a try. On the brightside, Lithgow have good customer service; they will fix your gun under warranty. Just prepare for a bit of a wait.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by straightshooter » 05 Nov 2019, 6:31 am

'michael_sa'
The machining marks on the bolt and the coarse file marks are not up to the standard you would expect from a rifle selling in the price class the Lithgow LA101 aspires to be in.
As for the misfiring I suspect the shape of the tip of the firing pin is the principal culprit in that the large flat area may tend to dissipate the firing pin impulse to the primer over an unnecessarily larger area. Ignition would be more reliable if it had a more rounded chisel shape.
Although I would like to believe that it doesn't happen this way in a precision engineering facility, I also suspect that the same skilled hands that left the file marks on the bolt may also have filed the firing pin to correct protrusion and left it in the state pictured.
Thanks to the detailed picture of a dismantled bolt put up by 'allan' it appears that the firing pin is a separate part to the striker assembly and appears to be retained by a pin or screw. This can also be a potential source of problems.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 05 Nov 2019, 4:53 pm

Hi straightshooter,

straightshooter wrote:The machining marks on the bolt and the coarse file marks are not up to the standard you would expect from a rifle selling in the price class the Lithgow LA101 aspires to be in.
...


That is exactly my thoughts on it too. I'm very disappointed in the finish of the bolt face. It makes me think if there's no pride in workmanship on that part, where else is it lacking.

straightshooter wrote:Thanks to the detailed picture of a dismantled bolt put up by 'allan' it appears that the firing pin is a separate part to the striker assembly and appears to be retained by a pin or screw. This can also be a potential source of problems.


The design of the Lithgow action is almost a straight copy from the CZ's. The bolt/firing pin assy is remarkably similar and yes the firing pin does look like it's pinned in to the main striker unit.
It would be interesting to measure the length of the firing pin from the striker face (where it's pinned in) to the end of the firing pin (at the bolt face) on a few other 101's to see if there's much variation... (or if mine is shorter)
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by straightshooter » 06 Nov 2019, 7:18 am

It might be more correct to call it an homage to a BRNO rather than a copy.
From the picture of the bolt parts I see a number of simplifications, probably to facilitate lower costs of manufacture.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Gamerancher » 06 Nov 2019, 10:47 am

See if you can find an email address for the manufacturer and send them those photos along with a "please explain!"
The finish on that bolt-face is pretty poor and the firing pin seems to be "short" of where the one in the photo Allen posted is.
His looks to be flush with the top of the recess, your's is nowhere near it.
All of my .22 rimfire rifles, of various brands, have the firing pin coming through flush when de-cocked or fired.
As others have mentioned, try different ammo. Some brands have thicker rims than others.
Also,.22 ammo is not "fool-proof" either. Storage conditions can have an effect on it's reliability no matter what brand. Ammo that has been subjected to extreme heat can become very unreliable. I've seen a bloke loose two cases of .22 ammo, ( that's 10,000 rounds ), and not "cheap" stuff either, because it sat in the heat in the back of a trailer for a week while he moved house. It became totally unreliable, heaps of F.T.F and lost accuracy.
I've had absolute top quality .22 match ammo fail half way through a match because it was left out in the sun, accuracy went to sh!t as well as F.T.F.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 06 Nov 2019, 10:52 am

Mate I have recently had an issue my LA101 and contacted Lithgow. They have been great thus far. No issues returning rifle back to them to be tested. The bloke I have been corresponding with has answered my questions whenever I have had them. Cannot speak highly enough of them. Just waiting to see what the outcome is.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 06 Nov 2019, 10:55 am

May have a different view of things in the coming days though. :lol: :lol: :lol: :drinks:
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 06 Nov 2019, 5:37 pm

straightshooter wrote:It might be more correct to call it an homage to a BRNO rather than a copy.


:lol: Hi straightshooter.
Yes, quite. Point taken and I agree.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 06 Nov 2019, 5:48 pm

Gamerancher wrote:See if you can find an email address for the manufacturer and send them those photos along with a "please explain!"
The finish on that bolt-face is pretty poor and the firing pin seems to be "short" of where the one in the photo Allen posted is.
His looks to be flush with the top of the recess, your's is nowhere near it.
All of my .22 rimfire rifles, of various brands, have the firing pin coming through flush when de-cocked or fired.
As others have mentioned, try different ammo. Some brands have thicker rims than others.
Also,.22 ammo is not "fool-proof" either. Storage conditions can have an effect on it's reliability no matter what brand. Ammo that has been subjected to extreme heat can become very unreliable. I've seen a bloke loose two cases of .22 ammo, ( that's 10,000 rounds ), and not "cheap" stuff either, because it sat in the heat in the back of a trailer for a week while he moved house. It became totally unreliable, heaps of F.T.F and lost accuracy.
I've had absolute top quality .22 match ammo fail half way through a match because it was left out in the sun, accuracy went to sh!t as well as F.T.F.


Thanks for your reply Gamerancher.
I'm not too happy but I'm going to reserve opinion and hold out until Saturday when I visit the range next and decide where to go from there, but I'm expecting a similar outcome since nothing has changed, but I do want to try a few different ammo types through it.
The machine marks just says sloppy workmanship to me. Sorry Lithgow, I don't expect perfect but I really did expect better that that.
OK about the ammo going off, I can only presume the stuff I have here was treated right before it got to me and I only had it for a week before they went 'click'... :wtf:
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Oldbloke » 06 Nov 2019, 5:55 pm

straightshooter wrote:
As for the misfiring I suspect the shape of the tip of the firing pin is the principal culprit in that the large flat area may tend to dissipate the firing pin impulse to the primer over an unnecessarily larger area. Ignition would be more reliable if it had a more rounded chisel shape.
Although


I noticed that too.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 06 Nov 2019, 6:03 pm

JimTom wrote:Mate I have recently had an issue my LA101 and contacted Lithgow. They have been great thus far. No issues returning rifle back to them to be tested. The bloke I have been corresponding with has answered my questions whenever I have had them. Cannot speak highly enough of them. Just waiting to see what the outcome is.


Hi JimTom.
That'll be my next step I guess, I'll be less than impressed if I have to stuff around with returns to Lithgow and testing. How long will that take? I paid for a fully functioning item, I shouldn't be put out to get one.
If I have a similar outcome after Saturday when I shoot it next, I'll be approaching the dealer and finding out what can be done. The 457 I was considering might be back in contention if the dealer comes to the party. but that's a way off yet and may not even be an option for me. One step at a time 'eh.

What was the problem you've had with yours and what sort of time frame to get your issue resolved?
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 06 Nov 2019, 8:45 pm

G’day mate.

My LA101 has poor accuracy. I have tried more types of ammo through it than I care to remember. Can’t find anything that will shoot. I even went and purchased new rings and Leupold scope as I thought it was the issue.
To their credit Lithgow said send it back and they will see what is wrong with it.
It took a week to get from the dealer to Lithgow, and they have now had it for three weeks come Monday.
Kind of hoping to hear something this week.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 06 Nov 2019, 9:19 pm

JimTom wrote:G’day mate.

My LA101 has poor accuracy. I have tried more types of ammo through it than I care to remember. Can’t find anything that will shoot. I even went and purchased new rings and Leupold scope as I thought it was the issue.
To their credit Lithgow said send it back and they will see what is wrong with it.
It took a week to get from the dealer to Lithgow, and they have now had it for three weeks come Monday.
Kind of hoping to hear something this week.


Very disappointed to read that JimTom.
You must be ready to ditch it and start with something else.
Three weeks is really starting to push the friendship
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 07 Nov 2019, 6:21 am

I would like to think it will be resolved in the near future mate, will be starting to fray around the edges if it drags out for to many more weeks. As I said previously though, if I email them I get a very prompt reply so can’t fault them for that.
They have suggested they were going to recrown it and see if that works. That was over a week ago so I would expect to hear something by tomorrow arvo. If accuracy doesn’t improve, they can have it. No point owning a .22 if it isn’t even capable of hitting a rabbit at 50m.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 07 Nov 2019, 5:40 pm

Well...
I was going to wait until after I shoot it next Saturday before choosing what to do next, but last night I decided to contact Lithgow Arms through their support/warrant claim contact page and describe the issue I'd had.
I was pleased to receive a detailed reply first thing this morning from one of the engineers who worked on the development of the LA101.
It was suggested that if the issue was a light strike, that I would have experienced more failures than I did over the 70 shots.
He had looked at the photographs I sent and considered the firing pin protrusion to be correct. I had indicated in my inquiry that I considered the bolt face machine marks to be a bit ordinary - he had made no comment on that..
It was suggested that the most likely cause was that of the bolt not being in the fully down position.
This is something that I had not given consideration to and most definitely something I will experiment with when I am at the range next. I can only presume I had the bolt fully down - but...
If I can lift the bolt slightly and make it misfire consistently - then that will most likely be the cause. An experiment for Saturday.
Trying a different ammo type was also suggested.

So, I'll give Lithgow Arms two thumbs up for their quick response and a well written reply to my query from someone with intimate knowledge of the firearm in question.
I'm so used to getting ordinary customer service these days, that this was a very pleasant surprise. :thumbsup:
Lets hope his advice is correct, I'm quite happy to eat humble pie if I was the cause :silent:
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by straightshooter » 08 Nov 2019, 6:53 am

The explanation given you by Lithgow may be feasible. It would somewhat depend on how much 'cam forward' is in the design and how far rifling engraves onto the projectile and to what extent that impedes the rim attaining zero headspace and thus not cushioning the firing pin blow.
It is more likely to be multiple 'on the limit of tolerance' issues combining to create the problem.
If you have aspirations of being a high quality manufacturer of anything then all 'quality control' must be performed before your product leaves your production facility and not leave it to the end user to perform the final 'quality acceptance'.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by PaddyT » 08 Nov 2019, 4:31 pm

Hopefully it gets sorted ASAP, Im still delighted with mine and the LA102 in 308 ive just recently bought. I will add though that whilst CCI std shoots ok from mine it does misfed a bit here and there compared to Velocitor or SK match. Ive prettty much settled on those as my main ammo.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by TassieTiger » 08 Nov 2019, 5:51 pm

I Didn’t realise the price they is associated with these LA101’s...I incorrectly thought they were a budget rifle but far from it.
Not great reports above...even occasional misfeeds would drive me nuts. Reliability on the next level firearms should be 2nd to nothing...imagine having a rabbit lined up and wondering IF it was going to work / feed next round / be accurate...
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 08 Nov 2019, 6:02 pm

PaddyT wrote:Hopefully it gets sorted ASAP, Im still delighted with mine and the LA102 in 308 ive just recently bought. I will add though that whilst CCI std shoots ok from mine it does misfed a bit here and there compared to Velocitor or SK match. Ive prettty much settled on those as my main ammo.


Thanks Paddy,
I'm appreciative of all the advise I can get from those 'in the know'
I'm going to run the remainder of the CCI's through it, then - all going well I'll switch to the SK
I've had one (CCI std) misfeed, - I've noticed when loading the mag, the last (5th) round to go in is *very* tight in the mag and I think it was that round that didn't feed right.
I reckon I need to get more used to the feel of the action as well. I probably felt a bit of extra resistance on the bolt and instead of pushing/cycling the bolt through like normal, maybe I hesitated during that cycle.. I dunno. :?
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 08 Nov 2019, 6:14 pm

TassieTiger wrote:I Didn’t realise the price they is associated with these LA101’s...I incorrectly thought they were a budget rifle but far from it.
Not great reports above...even occasional misfeeds would drive me nuts. Reliability on the next level firearms should be 2nd to nothing...imagine having a rabbit lined up and wondering IF it was going to work / feed next round / be accurate...


Hi Tassie,
Jury is still deliberating here... having said that, there are loads of happy customers out there that are shooting tight groups with these things and as described by the guy from Lithgow Arms, it might have been me and the bolt position. This all happened during the first time I shot with it, so it's feasible a degree of it might have been me getting used to it's feel etc.... :unknown:
Anyway, back at the range in the morning with a heap of ammo, so I'll report back after that.
Getting back into it...

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by southeast varmiter » 08 Nov 2019, 6:16 pm

Ruger precision rimfire. Solve the issue.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by BennieDaBlade » 08 Nov 2019, 9:30 pm

Just to add an owners 2 cents. I bought mine early, bit of a delay as there was a rush. I have about 2000 rounds so far with no fail to fire or fail to feed. various ammo from competition Eley to dregs.

Oh, wait, I forgot, I had two fail to feeds and I asked Lithgow and they sent me a new mag free of charge.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Bugman » 09 Nov 2019, 1:54 pm

Never had a problem with my LA101. Used all sorts of ammo. Hope it works out ok for you.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by PaddyT » 09 Nov 2019, 2:00 pm

I will clarify what i said earlier- the misfeeds where restricted to my two aftermarket mags and once i did the spring modification the problem essentailly went away, however the CCI Std seemed to do it the most- it now feeds fine,
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 10 Nov 2019, 7:50 am

So, all was going well at the range on Saturday, after 20 or 30 shots of the CCI std (the previous culprits) I'd had no more misfires.
I experimented with the bolt position as an engineer from Lithgow Arms had advised that if it wasn't fully down, this would cause a misfire.
Testing it slightly up (about 2 to 3mm) - shot fired ok
Slightly more out of battery (approx 5 to 6mm bolt up) and (not surprisingly) it misfired.
I only tried this on a couple of shots as it's a totally controllable variable and for the entire shoot (and I shot about 170 rounds that morning) I was very conscious to ensure the bolt was closed fully before each shot.

Since things were going ok, I decided to shoot the match that the others on the range were competing in and I switched to some SK match ammo for that.
About 8 or 9 shots in and the usual bang was replaced by the dreaded 'click' :wtf:
Bugger. Problem persists...
Even though it was only one misfire, this confirms in my mind that I still have an issue and that it misfired on a different brand of ammo.
There was another club member present with a 101, so I went and asked if he'd ever had any misfires. He said he's had one or two in the year he's had his, but attributed it to dud ammo. I looked at some of his spent cases and the fp indent looked similar but very slightly harder hit than mine.
I'm now thinking it's a headspace thing, but I'll be emailing Lithgow Arms again about it for their opinion and I'll have a chat to my dealer also to get his take on where to go from here.
Scored 427/500 in the comp with loads of fliers, it seems to group 2 or 3 then it'll throw 2 fliers. Underlying issue might be related to it's accuracy.

hmm...
Will keep y'all posted
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 10 Nov 2019, 7:58 am

Thanks for the update mate. Following this post closely. Very interested in the outcome. My rifle has apparently had the “crown adjusted and is shooting well”. I guess we will see when I get it back and try it out at the range next week.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by TassieTiger » 10 Nov 2019, 8:47 am

Thanks for update - sorry to hear it wasn’t bolt closure.
Might be slightly off topic - but JT, how much affect do you think the crown has on accuracy? Reason I ask is because of a you tube clip where ppl cut barrels with quick cuts, no crowning at all and testing showed similar accuracy after / before crowning.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 10 Nov 2019, 9:10 am

Mate I would suggest it does play a part however to what extent I don’t know mate. I don’t know enough about it.
I just did a search and read that article where old mate cut his barrel off with a reciprocating saw and it didn’t have as much of an effect as I would have thought. Interesting.
I would be very surprised if doing a job on the crown of my rifle has healed the issue my rifle had after reading that article. Time will tell.
Rest assured that if they have sent it back and it still shoots like rubbish it will be the last Lithgow rifle I ever touch. Will give them the benefit of the doubt before I pass final judgment though.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by allan » 10 Nov 2019, 9:12 am

TassieTiger wrote:Might be slightly off topic - but JT, how much affect do you think the crown has on accuracy? Reason I ask is because of a you tube clip where ppl cut barrels with quick cuts, no crowning at all and testing showed similar accuracy after / before crowning.


That may well apply to a "truck" gun carted around in the bush. However, once you start talking quality barrels, match chambers, bedding, headspace, ignition etc., a decent crown can make or break accuracy. I know one experienced smith in Qld. who has worked on a number of Lithgows (including one of mine). He routinely checks the crown for defects. I recently had my 2016 build LA101 bedded into a new stock - Had the crown re-cut while the rifle was in pieces - Done by Rolf Hey in Hobart.

Michael - I'm digesting your comments & pics from last night's email - Based on what you've done, I'm leaning towards a head space issue - Be in touch later to-day after I do a couple of measurements.

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 10 Nov 2019, 9:37 am

TassieTiger wrote:Thanks for update - sorry to hear it wasn’t bolt closure.
Might be slightly off topic - but JT, how much affect do you think the crown has on accuracy? Reason I ask is because of a you tube clip where ppl cut barrels with quick cuts, no crowning at all and testing showed similar accuracy after / before crowning.


I watched that YouTube vid too, a week or so back and was rather intrigued by it.
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