Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

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Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 03 Nov 2019, 11:52 am

G'day troops. New member and first time poster here.
After a number of years away from the shooting game, Ive returned and recently purchased a LA101.
This was prefaced with a lot of internet reading and trolling through the forums (this one included) as to what might be the go for a little benchrest 22 as a fresh start back into the sport.
I narrowed it down to one of the CZ's - I was leaning toward the 457, or the la101 - despite some of the internet chat regarding feed issues and the heavy'ish, non adjustable trigger that some had commented on, both brands were mentioned often for their accuracy.
I went with the 101, partly Aussie pride, partly nostalgic (first gun i ever shot as a kid was a little lithgow repeater), So I ordered it a few weeks ago and collected it last Tuesday.
It's first shoot was at the local range yesterday and of course I was pretty excited to try it out.
First shot - failed to fire.
OK, disappointing - but maybe I hadn't cleaned it as well as I should have was the thought in my head... (I was thinking machine oil/manufacturing grease in the bolt/firing pin assy) I rechambered that round - and it fired ok.
So, fast forward an hour and 70 rounds later, by then I'd had 5 fail to fire and one feed issue.
Unfortunately, I was on limited time and had to pack up at that point and head off to another appointment and I wont be back to the range for another week.
Ammo was CCI standard.
I know there are loads of posts online about optimum striker size/position blah blah, but I really should not be having this issue with a brand new gun straight out of the box.
I'm giving it a weeks grace, in the meantime I'll be disassembling the bolt assy to make sure there's nothing obvious in there affecting it.
I'll return to the range next week for a second go.
Pics attached of three cases that on first strike failed to fire, it's pretty obvious in the photograph that one is a lighter strike on the rim than the other.
I've also attached some pics of the bolt face and firing pin - Now I'm usually a glass half full type of guy and I don't think I have unrealistic expectations, but the machine marks on that bolt face are not what I was expecting to see on a brand new gun that on the whole, is getting a lot of rave reviews.

Does anyone have any ideas on things I should check before I start talking to my dealer or the people at Lithgow and I'm also interested in your thoughts on the machining marks on the bolt face.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Stix » 03 Nov 2019, 12:22 pm

G'day Michael_sa...
Welcome...
I feel your pain...
Its a bummer when something new, especially gun stuff is not operational first up...it takes so long to get it sorted & problem solve...

I havent any experience with Lithgow's so cant comment on the workings of the bolt...but i would say certainly check with other ammo--& even different batch No of the same ammo to be sure...
Also, i wonder if pressure when fired on the second strike would blow case out ever so slightly to make the first strike appear to not be as deep...?

Anyway, sorry i cant help...post up results as you get em & work through it all... :thumbsup:
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by marksman » 03 Nov 2019, 12:41 pm

welcome michael-sa :drinks:

like Stix l would call ammo, the dents from firing seem ok to me
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by TassieTiger » 03 Nov 2019, 1:27 pm

Hey, welcome.
I’ll just add - I don’t think I’ve ever had a mis fired cci - probably many thousands of ammunition. Definitely had misfires with Winchester, target and I think one or two with SK...
Tool marks don’t look too bad.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 03 Nov 2019, 3:30 pm

Stix wrote:G'day Michael_sa...
...
Also, i wonder if pressure when fired on the second strike would blow case out ever so slightly to make the first strike appear to not be as deep...?
...
:thumbsup:
:drinks:


Thanks Stix, that's actually a really good point I hadn't thought of.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Supaduke » 03 Nov 2019, 4:22 pm

I would try some different ammo, as well as simply run a few hundred rounds through and loosen things up. Quite possibly just stiff from being new.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Cooper » 03 Nov 2019, 4:50 pm

I don’t think I’ve ever have a CCI fail to fire out of about 5000 shots. So 5 out of 70 is a bit weird. Definitely try a different ammo. Hope you get to the bottom of it.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Oldbloke » 03 Nov 2019, 4:58 pm

Supaduke wrote:I would try some different ammo, as well as simply run a few hundred rounds through and loosen things up. Quite possibly just stiff from being new.



Inclined to agree.

Dismantle and clean inside of bolt and firing pin. A few drops of very light sewing machine oil
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 03 Nov 2019, 6:15 pm

Supaduke wrote:I would try some different ammo, as well as simply run a few hundred rounds through and loosen things up. Quite possibly just stiff from being new.


Thanks Supaduke.
I'm sure once it's had a brick of ammo through it the action will free and smooth up a bit - it does feel nice and smooth (but tight) as it is.
Is it normal for rimfires to misfire on some ammo types?
I guess I'm expecting out of the box it should strike and fire any cartridge, I don't reckon that's unrealistic - ammo brands/types and what it shoots accurately is another kettle of fish to my way of thinking, but it should at least go bang each time :?

What do you make of the machining marks on the bolt face, not real pretty is it?
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by in2anity » 03 Nov 2019, 9:37 pm

Send it back. It shouldn’t be misfiring.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by TassieTiger » 03 Nov 2019, 10:28 pm

in2anity wrote:Send it back. It shouldn’t be misfiring.


I agree. I’ve got a 30 year old norinco that hasn’t seen a drop of oil on the firing pin in 29 years.
I’d rule out a bad batch (unlucky if it was) ammo, if it happens even once with a different type / it would be back at shop and I’d be pissed...money back...different brand. If shop wants to send it back for evaluation, lodge a formal complaint for a refund.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by pomemax » 03 Nov 2019, 10:52 pm

I could not help thinking you did chamber brush it when New or try an oversized wet pach down at the bottom of the chamber
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 04 Nov 2019, 7:47 am

pomemax wrote:I could not help thinking you did chamber brush it when New or try an oversized wet pach down at the bottom of the chamber


Hi pomemax,
I didn't brush the barrel or chamber, but it was cleaned pretty well with Metcor 57 until the swabs were coming out clean, then it got a few passes with a brand new dry mop.
I disassembled the bolt last night and there was a fair bit of oil in there, not stupid amounts but more than it needs - so I'm not sure if there could be some kind of hydraulic cushioning happening at the end of the firing pin travel. I wiped out all the excess
Thanks for your thoughts.
Getting back into it...

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Am88 » 04 Nov 2019, 8:17 am

I've got about 1000 or so rounds through my 101 as yet and no dramas, would indefinably be unlucky to have that sought of failure rate of ammo. Dints look fine however on the rims. different ammo first then otherwise send rifle back. I have however in the past had two rimfires with firing issues, one was a Remington 527 that I used to hunt with as a kid, it would sometimes not fire rounds as if it was not hitting the round hard enough, could take the round out and put it in a bolt .22 and work perfectly. Other was a 30 something year old Stirling that was probably worn out to buggery it would sometimes with different brands do the same thing, and could shoot the round in another rifle fine.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by allan » 04 Nov 2019, 2:23 pm

Michael - Misfires in a new LA101 are not normal regardless of ammo. I have over two cases of assorted ammo. through my two and have friends with rifles which have fired a lot of rounds. I have never had a misfire in mine.
Your bolt face doesn't look too flash to be honest so it would definitely pay to dismantle the bolt and check the internals.
I'm attaching a few pics to give you an indication of what I consider satisfactory FP hits.
I have polished the internals of my bolts and also polished the cartridge pick up area on the underside of the bolts.
Be careful that you don't void your warranty by doing excess tinkering.
I would try different ammo. Make sure chamber and breech face are clean etc.
If the problem persists, definitely contact your dealer. I've had a bit to do with the customer service fellows at Lithgow. They will assist where they feel it is warranted if their products are defective.
Good luck with it,
Allan.

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 04 Nov 2019, 6:53 pm

allan wrote:...
Be careful that you don't void your warranty by doing excess tinkering.
I would try different ammo. Make sure chamber and breech face are clean etc.
If the problem persists, definitely contact your dealer. I've had a bit to do with the customer service fellows at Lithgow. They will assist where they feel it is warranted if their products are defective.
Good luck with it,
Allan.
...


Hi Allan and thanks for the pics.
I only shot with the CCI std's that day. I do have a box of SK's so it'll be interesting to see if the firing pin marks are the same as yours when I shoot a few off in my 101. I sure don't remember seeing any of my CCI shells coming out with indents like in your photo.
...and no, definitely no tinkering happening here until I have an answer as to what is going on.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Supaduke » 04 Nov 2019, 7:21 pm

Definitely put a few different ammo types through it and see if it happens with different ammo. Will give it time to loosen up and also identify if it's an ammo or rifle issue. No sense sending it back just yet when it could simply be a dud box of ammo. CCI is pretty good but certainly not infallible. At least that way you can offer a bit more informed data for diagnosis by a gunsmith or whoever looks at it.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 04 Nov 2019, 7:25 pm

Am88 wrote:I've got about 1000 or so rounds through my 101 as yet and no dramas, would indefinably be unlucky to have that sought of failure rate of ammo. Dints look fine however on the rims. different ammo first then otherwise send rifle back. I have however in the past had two rimfires with firing issues, one was a Remington 527 that I used to hunt with as a kid, it would sometimes not fire rounds as if it was not hitting the round hard enough, could take the round out and put it in a bolt .22 and work perfectly. Other was a 30 something year old Stirling that was probably worn out to buggery it would sometimes with different brands do the same thing, and could shoot the round in another rifle fine.


Thanks Am88.
Years ago I had a 10/22 that was a little temperamental with some ammo, I forget which, too long ago now but it would have been some form of Winchester HP as they came from the local stock agent during Dad's weekly run from the farm into town, the shopping list went along the lines of beer, bread, milk, meat & bullets... (what else does a bloke need?) - we could have probably left the milk behind to be honest, but I digress...
... so I reshaped the firing pin to about 2/3rds of it's width and never had another problem with it. I don't know if they've changed over time, but the early 10/22's had a very wide firing pin.
So with that in mind there's an element of deja vu happening here, the exception being that this gun is a brand spanker straight out of the box, so it's really not up to me to make it right. I'll give it another clean, take it to the range on Saturday, shoot the rest of the CCI's to see if I get anymore failures from that same batch, then switch to some SK match ammo and see what gives.
Your mention of the 30 year old Stirling reminds me of an ancient old JGA single shot the old man had - it used to do similar - like yours, worn to buggery and probably never had a clean in it's life.
Getting back into it...

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by in2anity » 04 Nov 2019, 8:26 pm

Looking at your shells, it looks like it’s light striking - not sure if different ammo will help. Still, worth a try. On the brightside, Lithgow have good customer service; they will fix your gun under warranty. Just prepare for a bit of a wait.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by straightshooter » 05 Nov 2019, 6:31 am

'michael_sa'
The machining marks on the bolt and the coarse file marks are not up to the standard you would expect from a rifle selling in the price class the Lithgow LA101 aspires to be in.
As for the misfiring I suspect the shape of the tip of the firing pin is the principal culprit in that the large flat area may tend to dissipate the firing pin impulse to the primer over an unnecessarily larger area. Ignition would be more reliable if it had a more rounded chisel shape.
Although I would like to believe that it doesn't happen this way in a precision engineering facility, I also suspect that the same skilled hands that left the file marks on the bolt may also have filed the firing pin to correct protrusion and left it in the state pictured.
Thanks to the detailed picture of a dismantled bolt put up by 'allan' it appears that the firing pin is a separate part to the striker assembly and appears to be retained by a pin or screw. This can also be a potential source of problems.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 05 Nov 2019, 4:53 pm

Hi straightshooter,

straightshooter wrote:The machining marks on the bolt and the coarse file marks are not up to the standard you would expect from a rifle selling in the price class the Lithgow LA101 aspires to be in.
...


That is exactly my thoughts on it too. I'm very disappointed in the finish of the bolt face. It makes me think if there's no pride in workmanship on that part, where else is it lacking.

straightshooter wrote:Thanks to the detailed picture of a dismantled bolt put up by 'allan' it appears that the firing pin is a separate part to the striker assembly and appears to be retained by a pin or screw. This can also be a potential source of problems.


The design of the Lithgow action is almost a straight copy from the CZ's. The bolt/firing pin assy is remarkably similar and yes the firing pin does look like it's pinned in to the main striker unit.
It would be interesting to measure the length of the firing pin from the striker face (where it's pinned in) to the end of the firing pin (at the bolt face) on a few other 101's to see if there's much variation... (or if mine is shorter)
Getting back into it...

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by straightshooter » 06 Nov 2019, 7:18 am

It might be more correct to call it an homage to a BRNO rather than a copy.
From the picture of the bolt parts I see a number of simplifications, probably to facilitate lower costs of manufacture.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Gamerancher » 06 Nov 2019, 10:47 am

See if you can find an email address for the manufacturer and send them those photos along with a "please explain!"
The finish on that bolt-face is pretty poor and the firing pin seems to be "short" of where the one in the photo Allen posted is.
His looks to be flush with the top of the recess, your's is nowhere near it.
All of my .22 rimfire rifles, of various brands, have the firing pin coming through flush when de-cocked or fired.
As others have mentioned, try different ammo. Some brands have thicker rims than others.
Also,.22 ammo is not "fool-proof" either. Storage conditions can have an effect on it's reliability no matter what brand. Ammo that has been subjected to extreme heat can become very unreliable. I've seen a bloke loose two cases of .22 ammo, ( that's 10,000 rounds ), and not "cheap" stuff either, because it sat in the heat in the back of a trailer for a week while he moved house. It became totally unreliable, heaps of F.T.F and lost accuracy.
I've had absolute top quality .22 match ammo fail half way through a match because it was left out in the sun, accuracy went to sh!t as well as F.T.F.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 06 Nov 2019, 10:52 am

Mate I have recently had an issue my LA101 and contacted Lithgow. They have been great thus far. No issues returning rifle back to them to be tested. The bloke I have been corresponding with has answered my questions whenever I have had them. Cannot speak highly enough of them. Just waiting to see what the outcome is.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 06 Nov 2019, 10:55 am

May have a different view of things in the coming days though. :lol: :lol: :lol: :drinks:
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 06 Nov 2019, 5:37 pm

straightshooter wrote:It might be more correct to call it an homage to a BRNO rather than a copy.


:lol: Hi straightshooter.
Yes, quite. Point taken and I agree.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 06 Nov 2019, 5:48 pm

Gamerancher wrote:See if you can find an email address for the manufacturer and send them those photos along with a "please explain!"
The finish on that bolt-face is pretty poor and the firing pin seems to be "short" of where the one in the photo Allen posted is.
His looks to be flush with the top of the recess, your's is nowhere near it.
All of my .22 rimfire rifles, of various brands, have the firing pin coming through flush when de-cocked or fired.
As others have mentioned, try different ammo. Some brands have thicker rims than others.
Also,.22 ammo is not "fool-proof" either. Storage conditions can have an effect on it's reliability no matter what brand. Ammo that has been subjected to extreme heat can become very unreliable. I've seen a bloke loose two cases of .22 ammo, ( that's 10,000 rounds ), and not "cheap" stuff either, because it sat in the heat in the back of a trailer for a week while he moved house. It became totally unreliable, heaps of F.T.F and lost accuracy.
I've had absolute top quality .22 match ammo fail half way through a match because it was left out in the sun, accuracy went to sh!t as well as F.T.F.


Thanks for your reply Gamerancher.
I'm not too happy but I'm going to reserve opinion and hold out until Saturday when I visit the range next and decide where to go from there, but I'm expecting a similar outcome since nothing has changed, but I do want to try a few different ammo types through it.
The machine marks just says sloppy workmanship to me. Sorry Lithgow, I don't expect perfect but I really did expect better that that.
OK about the ammo going off, I can only presume the stuff I have here was treated right before it got to me and I only had it for a week before they went 'click'... :wtf:
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by Oldbloke » 06 Nov 2019, 5:55 pm

straightshooter wrote:
As for the misfiring I suspect the shape of the tip of the firing pin is the principal culprit in that the large flat area may tend to dissipate the firing pin impulse to the primer over an unnecessarily larger area. Ignition would be more reliable if it had a more rounded chisel shape.
Although


I noticed that too.
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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by michael_sa » 06 Nov 2019, 6:03 pm

JimTom wrote:Mate I have recently had an issue my LA101 and contacted Lithgow. They have been great thus far. No issues returning rifle back to them to be tested. The bloke I have been corresponding with has answered my questions whenever I have had them. Cannot speak highly enough of them. Just waiting to see what the outcome is.


Hi JimTom.
That'll be my next step I guess, I'll be less than impressed if I have to stuff around with returns to Lithgow and testing. How long will that take? I paid for a fully functioning item, I shouldn't be put out to get one.
If I have a similar outcome after Saturday when I shoot it next, I'll be approaching the dealer and finding out what can be done. The 457 I was considering might be back in contention if the dealer comes to the party. but that's a way off yet and may not even be an option for me. One step at a time 'eh.

What was the problem you've had with yours and what sort of time frame to get your issue resolved?
Getting back into it...

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Re: Lithgow LA101 - Misfired on first shot

Post by JimTom » 06 Nov 2019, 8:45 pm

G’day mate.

My LA101 has poor accuracy. I have tried more types of ammo through it than I care to remember. Can’t find anything that will shoot. I even went and purchased new rings and Leupold scope as I thought it was the issue.
To their credit Lithgow said send it back and they will see what is wrong with it.
It took a week to get from the dealer to Lithgow, and they have now had it for three weeks come Monday.
Kind of hoping to hear something this week.
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