Shooting air rifle in the garage

[bladeracer]

l'm old enough to remember when every kid (except me) owned a slug gun and shot it in the backyard
the problem these days is the air rifles can be very powerful but the older slug guns would cause ricochets off tin and wooden fences, now they can go through
l remember an italian mate who shot starlings for his grandmother to eat, apparently they are a delicacy in italy
how things have changed, feeling old at the moment l'm sure you will work it out Dabi

My first licence was for an air-rifle when I was a kid. I was shooting with PCYC every week and nobody ever said anything about not being able to use it at home, not when applying for the licence, not when I bought the rifle, and not while competing with it every week. Most days I'd be in the back yard practicing with it after school. I was also shooting smallbore with Army Cadets, and I was certainly aware of the restrictions on where you could shoot .22LR, although we were shooting on a school oval, in the city, directly at a main road on the other side of our back stop. I don't think it ever occurred to any of us that it was a problem, although I'm sure the blokes in charge were having kittens the whole time

[rc42]

Guess I'm one of the lucky ones, we live on a small rural zoned property in QLD so I am able to fire air rifles and even 'real' firearms in the back yard.
The garage is too small but we have an otherwise unused tennis court that came with the property so I have a 25m test area along one side with a very substantial backstop and earth bank behind that.

There's no line of sight to any neigbour from that area (nearest is about 200m away) but I've also constructed a giant 'suppressor' in the form of a 1m wide, 2m high and 5m long tunnel using concrete blocks and rubber mats that is located at the firing line so the muzzle of the gun goes into it when fired, it works so well that the noise of the projectile hitting the backstop is much louder than the gun itself with any 22LR subsonic ammunition.


If we weren't zoned rural it would be range use only though, despite the very low risk of getting caught it's just not worth the risk of losing everything and the bad publicity and potential harm to legal firearm ownership that could affect us all.

[Nigel]

As long as you live in a rural zone. In a built-up area there is no distinction between discharging a firearm indoors or out, the crime is the same, and certainly not worth it just for an air-rifle.

What law makes it a crime to discharge a firearm other than in a "rural zone"?

I am aware that the Victorian Firearms Act previously provided that it was an offence to "use a firearm in a town or populous place". That provision (section 130) was amended last year and now states that it is an offence to use a firearm "in a public place or in any other place with reckless disregard for the safety of any person".

The definition of public place used is from the Summary Offences Act and does not include private property. Use of an air rifle in a garage would therefor not constitute a section 130 offence unless it was done with reckless disregard for safety.

Is there some other legal provision that makes OP's proposed usage an offence irrespective of the circumstances?

[bladeracer]

What law makes it a crime to discharge a firearm other than in a "rural zone"?

I am aware that the Victorian Firearms Act previously provided that it was an offence to "use a firearm in a town or populous place". That provision (section 130) was amended last year and now states that it is an offence to use a firearm "in a public place or in any other place with reckless disregard for the safety of any person".

The definition of public place used is from the Summary Offences Act and does not include private property. Use of an air rifle in a garage would therefor not constitute a section 130 offence unless it was done with reckless disregard for safety.

Is there some other legal provision that makes OP's proposed usage an offence irrespective of the circumstances?

While private property is not a public place, it is certainly "any other place". I have shot smallbore rifles within a school boundary in a city, and I know of a smallbore range situated in the middle of a town, so it must be possible to get around it, if you can prevent pellets or bullets from leaving the property. Perhaps you should put your question to the Police or a lawyer?

I would expect the charge to be exactly that, discharging a firearm with reckless disregard for the safety of other people. If you really want to spend your time and money fighting that in court that's your prerogative. I recall when that change was first proposed there was a stink because state forest is a public place as well. It's unlikely to become a court matter until a pellet manages to exit the property.

[bladeracer]

Guess I'm one of the lucky ones, we live on a small rural zoned property in QLD so I am able to fire air rifles and even 'real' firearms in the back yard.
The garage is too small but we have an otherwise unused tennis court that came with the property so I have a 25m test area along one side with a very substantial backstop and earth bank behind that.

There's no line of sight to any neigbour from that area (nearest is about 200m away) but I've also constructed a giant 'suppressor' in the form of a 1m wide, 2m high and 5m long tunnel using concrete blocks and rubber mats that is located at the firing line so the muzzle of the gun goes into it when fired, it works so well that the noise of the projectile hitting the backstop is much louder than the gun itself with any 22LR subsonic ammunition.


If we weren't zoned rural it would be range use only though, despite the very low risk of getting caught it's just not worth the risk of losing everything and the bad publicity and potential harm to legal firearm ownership that could affect us all.

Building such a thing could be argued to be "a device designed to reduce the report of a firearm", even though it's not attached to the firearm. It could also be considered a permanent shooting range if it's not portable. I have considered building something similar for load development but it's a grey area I'm unwilling to venture into without the okay of the authorities.

[trekin]

Guess I'm one of the lucky ones, we live on a small rural zoned property in QLD so I am able to fire air rifles and even 'real' firearms in the back yard.
The garage is too small but we have an otherwise unused tennis court that came with the property so I have a 25m test area along one side with a very substantial backstop and earth bank behind that.

There's no line of sight to any neigbour from that area (nearest is about 200m away) but I've also constructed a giant 'suppressor' in the form of a 1m wide, 2m high and 5m long tunnel using concrete blocks and rubber mats that is located at the firing line so the muzzle of the gun goes into it when fired, it works so well that the noise of the projectile hitting the backstop is much louder than the gun itself with any 22LR subsonic ammunition.


If we weren't zoned rural it would be range use only though, despite the very low risk of getting caught it's just not worth the risk of losing everything and the bad publicity and potential harm to legal firearm ownership that could affect us all.

bladeracer wrote:"Building such a thing could be argued to be "a device designed to reduce the report of a firearm", even though it's not attached to the firearm. It could also be considered a permanent shooting range if it's not portable. I have considered building something similar for load development but it's a grey area I'm unwilling to venture into without the okay of the authorities."
Indeed, this so, and the reason why you don't see firing lines looking like this at any clubs up here;

sup3.jpg (10.56 KiB) Viewed 5385 times

In fact, it could be argued that indoor ranges fall foul of the very broad definition of a silencer in the QLD Weapons Categories Regulation 1997.
"(h) a silencer or other device or contrivance made or used,
or capable of being used or intended to be used, for
reducing the sound caused by discharging a firearm;"

[rc42]

Actually my 'shooting line structure' or whatever it should be called is technically portable and certainly a temporary structure, it's well over a hundred concrete blocks from Bunnings, 390x190.190 each with just gravity and friction supporting the walls, thick rubber play area mats line it but are attached by removable clips.

It's main purpose is to limit the arc of movement available to the loaded firearm to an area covered by a substantial backstop, much like those giant blue barrels would in the picture, it also reduces noise to the sides (but not to the rear or front) in a similar way to a building or bank of soil or even trees if there were enough, I don't think that any reasonable interpretation of the law could class it or any of those as a 'device' or 'contrivance' and importantly, it doesn't reduce the actual noise at the muzzle which is by definition the 'sound caused by discharging the firearm'

As far as I can determine operating a 'range' is different to personal recreational shooting in the same place on your rural property with the difference largely being when other are also shooting there, especially if it is a paid service or a club.

Unfortunately, much of firearm legislation seems to have been written by people with poor understanding of firearms and they couldn't possibly cover every scenario so some of the wording ends up vague and open to interpretation. A key part of firearm ownership and use is knowing where your activities are going into those grey areas and understand the risks and your legal position if you are challenged on it.

It's a shame really that trying to enjoy your hobby in a safe place and reduce noise and nuisance for your neighbours is fraught with such risks.

[bladeracer]

I agree with you, but I have so much of myself invested in my firearms and shooting, which I can only enjoy by asking the authorities to allow me to, for which pleasure they require me to comply with some very complicated, convoluted, and often contradictory regulations. They then add to those the caveat that even if I follow all those laws to the letter, they can still choose to revoke my licence for whatever reason they see fit. I have no control over the whim of the authorities, so I can only do what I can to try to follow the laws.

When it comes to noise reduction I try to use the environment and avoid having to fabricate anything for that purpose, mainly because I dislike feeling like I need to conceal my legal recreational activities from the general public simply because they choose not to accept my choices, but also because I think the laws are written with the intent of being open to interpretation in hopes of using them to confuse and control firearm owners to the point of subjugation.

Wanting to restrict our noise impact on our neighbors should be an attitude that the authorities, and the general public, applaud for what it is, showing our acceptance of their right to enjoy their own pursuits with minimal intrusion upon them by our enjoyment of our legal choices of lifestyle. Instead, such desires are labeled as subversive, and seen as evidence that we want conceal our activities for nefarious purpose.

[Nigel]

While private property is not a public place, it is certainly "any other place".

I don't understand your point here. Yes private property is "any place" and it makes no difference whether it is in a "rural zone" or not.

Perhaps you should put your question to the Police or a lawyer?

I don't think there's any question that needs answering here. You said it was illegal to use a firearm in a non-rural area under any circumstances. The law does not say that and I was simply pointing out the error.
I think the law in this area is clear and see no reason to ask police or lawyers anything.

I would expect the charge to be exactly that, discharging a firearm with reckless disregard for the safety of other people.

Are you saying that this is the law that you based your original "rural zone" comment on?
This is a fairly new law. Are you aware of some legal precedent stating that using a firearm in a non-rural zone always constitutes "reckless disregard for safety"?

Before last year's change to section 130, your original comment would have been pretty much spot on. It's not a big deal if you just didn't realise that the law had been changed.

[Farmerpete]

Easy on Nigel if you're going to argue the wording bit you should be aware it was changed to make it appear as if someone in an office was clever

It also threw people and police into a panic wondering if hunting in state Forrest was illegal even with dpi certification.Or if shooting in the backyard was now legal!

Luckily police issued a statement saying that they were going to enforce public place as meaning populace place still.

If you went to court and set precedence state Forrest hunting will be a thing of the past and it would take a week before shooting at home was legislated against.

[bladeracer]

I don't think there's any question that needs answering here. You said it was illegal to use a firearm in a non-rural area under any circumstances. The law does not say that and I was simply pointing out the error.
I think the law in thi
Ended up losing what I wrote trying to get it to quote properly...

Where did I make this statement? There are certainly circumstances outside of rural zoning that allow firearm usage, shooting 9n private property in an urban environment does not strike me as one of them, and can easily be argued to be to the reckless endangerment of people in the vicinity. Are you saying the law clearly allows us to shoot on private property in an urban environment?
The question I refer to is the one you asked me - "What law makes it a crime to discharge a firearm other than in a "rural zone"?" - you would be best served asking the authorities.

Are you saying that this is the law that you based your original "rural zone" comment on?
This is a fairly new law. Are you aware of some legal precedent stating that using a firearm in a non-rural zone always constitutes "reckless disregard for safety"?

I did not make that assertion, but I think you would struggle to win the argument that discharging firearms in an urban environment does not endanger other people, whether recklessness is part of the specific circumstance would be for a court to determine.

Before last year's change to section 130, your original comment would have been pretty much spot on. It's not a big deal if you just didn't realise that the law had been changed.

I can't see that change in the wording of the makes any difference.

[trekin]

Actually my 'shooting line structure' or whatever it should be called is technically portable and certainly a temporary structure, it's well over a hundred concrete blocks from Bunnings, 390x190.190 each with just gravity and friction supporting the walls, thick rubber play area mats line it but are attached by removable clips.

It's main purpose is to limit the arc of movement available to the loaded firearm to an area covered by a substantial backstop, much like those giant blue barrels would in the picture, it also reduces noise to the sides (but not to the rear or front) in a similar way to a building or bank of soil or even trees if there were enough, I don't think that any reasonable interpretation of the law could class it or any of those as a 'device' or 'contrivance' And yet there a clubs that have been threaten with having their licences suspended if they continue to allow their members to use those barrals. and importantly, it doesn't reduce the actual noise at the muzzle which is by definition the 'sound caused by discharging the firearm' Ditch the "thick rubber play area mats". Rubber absorbs sound pressure waves. It might not be the 30 or so DB that a more conventional 'silencer' would do, but it is still "reducing the sound caused by discharging a firearm". To stop the risk of any ricochet going god knows where after leaving the structure, extend said structure to the backstop, this will make what is known as a gallery range, this is acceptable for testing firearms and load development.

As far as I can determine operating a 'range' is different to personal recreational shooting in the same place on your rural property with the difference largely being when other are also shooting there, especially if it is a paid service or a club. Yes, we are lucky enough up here to be allowed have a 'range' on our own land as long as we are not conducting club or club like activities on it.

Unfortunately, much of firearm legislation seems to have been written by people with poor understanding of firearms and they couldn't possibly cover every scenario so some of the wording ends up vague and open to interpretation. By design, not accident. A key part of firearm ownership and use is knowing where your activities are going into those grey areas and understand the risks and your legal position if you are challenged on it. Every LAFO should have a copy of the legislation, and be able to justify their forray into any grey areas, and more importantly, have a lawyer who is willing to defend their (LAFO) interpretation of said legislation.

It's a shame really that trying to enjoy your hobby in a safe place and reduce noise and nuisance for your neighbours is fraught with such risks.

The above is advise (but not legal) given by someone who has certificate in range design and range operation It is up to you (or anyone else) as to how you use that advise.

[sungazer]

Personally I think you could justify and be allowed to have an air gun range in your garage. I know a guy that used to shoot 10m air pistol and had his own indoor range. I dont know if it was signed off on by the LRD or not. it was quite some time ago. Not sure you would be able to shoot pistol at home these days but Rifle perhaps as long as there was no way pellets could leave the building and not ricochet back to the shooter. which sometimes happens at professional pistol ranges.
If It was just mine dont know which way I would go notify the authorities or keeps it all completely hush, hush.

As far a rural property goes. I think constructing a significant backstop and other earth works to protect your neighbors both physically and from noise is acceptable. In these cases I think it is always best to involve and explain things to your neighbors get them on side. Sow a seed that you could do this and that to minimize impact to them. If they go for it and take it on as their idea or a favor you are doing for them. Then you are not going to get any complaints at least you would be told first if they had any concerns. Dont go inviting friends to shoot every weekend all day sort of thing stuff that is outside what is in the regs.

[bladeracer]

How would they differentiate an air-rifle from other firearms? A local smallbore range in Traralgon shoot .22LR in the middle of the town. They're not enclosed in a building, just an unroofed grassed area in back of a small building, a brick wall behind the targets, and corrugated steel walls down both sides. Bullets could certainly leave the range through the side wall or over the top. Being an approved range they would be licenced in compliance with a range template only allowing .22LR. Could a private person apply for such a template approval though?

[sungazer]

A private person could apply for a Range and be certified. It would mean going through all the council permits for all the other stuff relating to just a building as well or first.

There are private pistol ranges within the suburbs of Melbourne that you would only learn about by private invitation. Totally Legal ranges and clubs.

I was just giving what I may do not offering advice to anyone re doing anything. IMHO there is a big difference between an air rifle and say a 22LR at least the Air Rifles that I used to have. I may not have the same opinion of modern high power air rifles. Also as much about the noise as anything else. If it were my garage and I was setting up my own private range though it would be able to contain the pellets from any and all directions.

[elnino]

SA has no specific retrictions on where you can shoot, unlike other states. But it does have a weird law that basically states if you scare someone or HAVE THE POTENTIAL to scare someone, you can be charged. It does not matter where you are, rural or not. I have set up my own 10m air range in the house before for testing but generally shoot at the range or a relatives place (20 acres) 20 mins drive away but thier neighbors will not even tolorate rimfire other than the occasional shot. No way i can go up there and plink for an hour or two.

[bladeracer]

SA has no specific retrictions on where you can shoot, unlike other states. But it does have a weird law that basically states if you scare someone or HAVE THE POTENTIAL to scare someone, you can be charged. It does not matter where you are, rural or not. I have set up my own 10m air range in the house before for testing but generally shoot at the range or a relatives place (20 acres) 20 mins drive away but thier neighbors will not even tolorate rimfire other than the occasional shot. No way i can go up there and plink for an hour or two.

We have the same law in Vic, and I would expect all states have it, it's what I was referring to about doing everything according to the law but still being charged.

Does SA not have any restriction on discharging firearms in populated or public places?

[elnino]

Not that i have seen and i have spent a lot of time going over the act.

Essentially it would be covered by the other law anyway.

EDIT: I found this..

51—Throwing missiles
(1) A person who, without lawful excuse, throws a missile intending to—
(a) injure, annoy or frighten any person; or
(b) damage any property,
is guilty of an offence.
Maximum penalty: Imprisonment for 2 years.
(2) A person who, without lawful excuse, throws a missile and who is reckless as to
whether that act—
(a) injures, annoys or frightens, or may injure, annoy or frighten, any person; or
(b) damages, or may damage, any property,
is guilty of an offence.
Maximum penalty: Imprisonment for 1 year.
(3) In proceedings for an offence against this section, it is not necessary for the
prosecution to establish that a person was, in fact, injured, annoyed or frightened or
that property was, in fact, damaged (as the case requires) by the defendant's act.
(4) In this section—
reckless—a person is reckless as to whether an act injures, annoys or frightens, or may
injure, annoy or frighten any person, or damages or may damage any property, if the
person—
(a) is aware of a substantial risk that the act could injure, annoy or frighten any
person or damage any property; and
(b) does the act despite the risk and without adequate justification;
throw includes to discharge or project by means of any mechanism or device.

The bold bit I assume includes firearms.

[rc42]

Just to clarify regulations regarding license conditions as they apply to LAFOs in Queensland.

A&B licenses here obtained for sports and target shooting generally always come with license conditions SC1, SC2 and RE1 which are defined in the Queensland Weapons Regulations 2016.

Those definitions are:
SC1
The licensee is authorised to possess and use registered category A and B weapons for sports or target shooting at an approved shooting range.

SC2
This licensee must maintain financial membership of an approved shooting club

RE1
The licensee is authorised to possess and use registered category A and B weapons for recreational shooting on rural land with the express consent of the owner of the land.


Use of a firearm anywhere other than an approved range or rural zoned land is a breach of license conditions which would leave the licensee subject to prosecution and firearm confiscation.

Category H handguns (including air pistols) do not come with an RE1 condition so can only be used at approved ranges (PC1 condition), to use them on rural land you need a primary producer (PP1) condition.


Rules will likely vary in other states

[FNQ]

Technically speaking it would be illegal in suburbia is my take on the law

Some even argue that shooting targets on rural properties is legal which I disagree with

Say you created a safe range in your garage and it was out of sight which only you knew about....

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

[rc42]

I've seen posts from people in other states claiming that when hunting in state forests they can fire sighting shots but not perform target shooting, not sure which states or how true that is but it certainly doesn't apply to Queensland as recreational shooting can only be on private rural land (without size restriction as long as no projectile leaves the property) and with the owner's express permission.

The term 'recreational shooting' isn't really defined anywhere but it would be reasonable to assume that it includes anything that you can legally shoot at such as pest animals, wood, metal or plastic targets, tin cans etc, in fact just about any inanimate object including paper targets.

As mentioned above, shooting in QLD is only allowed at approved ranges and on rural land, nowhere else, for 'suburbia' you still need to check the council zoning, if it is anything other than 'rural' then you can't legally discharge any firearm whether it's in the garden, the garage or in your living room inside the fish tank. If anyone does then they have violated their weapons license conditions, the penalty would be loss of license, all of your firearms and ammunition and likely a large fine.

Would you be caught? Almost certainly not, especially with air guns but what if the police were just about to knock on your door about another matter or after a neighbor report of hearing guns or during a safe inspection or maybe visiting after a break-in they saw the shooting area or marks form where it was?


If I didn't live on rural property I'd never discharge any firearm in or around my home and I'd certainly encourage others in QLD to do the same.

[elnino]

It is going to be a gamble.
It depends on your neighbours, how much you intend to shoot etc.

I have a paslode (combustion) nail gun which is easily 2x louder than my nitro .22 CFX and have been on that for hours at a time with no issues and sort of sound similar.

However people will only assume its an air rifle if they know you have one. Most of the public have thier heads in the sand and think guns in australia are rare.

I am on the edge of rural so not really an issue for me.