Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Rimfire bolt action rifles, lever action, pump action and self loading rifles. Air rifles.

Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by SCJ429 » 16 Jan 2020, 8:13 pm

I believe you are correct, it is not the same as Lapua Centre X but made in the same factory.

Your Savage is shooting well, you need some bigger challenges. Well done.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by Wapiti » 20 Jan 2020, 11:37 am

It's interesting to read all the arguments either side of the debate from everyone.

In the 80s when mostly all we had were scopes up to 10 power, and variables were not known for their robustness except for a few expensive brands, we got by very well.
Going back 10 years, suddenly if you didn't have a 3-15x on your hunting gun, you were failing.

I remember falling for that too, and bought some things I can't stand now.

GUNS AND GAME magazine were a proponent of low powered scopes that you could mount very low over the bore, so were super fast to get on target and had awesome fields of view. They used bench guns to prove that groups shot on 2 to 4 power were as small as ones on 24x. I tried that theory and they were bang on.

Now, a hunting rifle for me has a 2-8x scope and is way big enough. A dedicated rim fire scope, with fixed parralax at 50m, has measurable benefits too and all ours have 2-7x as extremely flexible optics. Remembering that rim fire are "short range" cartridges too.

Anyway, maybe I can't see the difference between a between the eyes shot on game, and a target on a range. Except that, you can't muck about fiddling with AO or side focus because those targets have a tendency to bugger off if you stuff about.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by SCJ429 » 20 Jan 2020, 12:31 pm

Wapiti wrote:It's interesting to read all the arguments either side of the debate from everyone.


GUNS AND GAME magazine were a proponent of low powered scopes that you could mount very low over the bore, so were super fast to get on target and had awesome fields of view. They used bench guns to prove that groups shot on 2 to 4 power were as small as ones on 24x. I tried that theory and they were bang on.


It is an interesting theory but untrue. Even at 50 metres the extra magnification will assist you enormously. What sort of competition did you try a 4x scope in?
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by Member-Deleted » 20 Jan 2020, 12:35 pm

[quote="Wapiti"] They used bench guns to prove that groups shot on 2 to 4 power were as small as ones on 24x. I tried that theory and they were bang on. /quote]

funny you say that, i sort of experienced that for myself yesterday. I was shooting a 223 off a bench at 100m with a 6-24x wound up to 20. i could see the target really well, but could also see my pulse in the reticle. I wound it down to 12x [still not 'low power' I know] and found it much better, and my groups improved.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by RoginaJack » 20 Jan 2020, 3:58 pm

Yep, the higher the magnification the more the wobbles and narrower field of view.

For field hunting a 3-9, 2-7 or 4-12 works for me.

Also, back in the day a American manufacture ( not sure of Manufacture - Redfield from Colorado) turned out a scope where the Objective lens was not round but oblong - theory was better field of view on running shots
Boom, Boom! Tikka, Tikka, Boom! Shoot first, video later.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by SCJ429 » 20 Jan 2020, 7:47 pm

Happy to take bets on who can do better, you with the superior 4x and I will handicap myself with an inferior high power scope. 50x?
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by Stix » 20 Jan 2020, 10:37 pm

High power scopes have a place in hunting...just depends how & what you shoot.

For me, having my physiology magnified through your optics is a good thing...especially to strive for the improvent in longer range shooting ... :thumbsup:

You can learn a lot about yourself with high power optics--your fitness, different positions that are comfortable, & how quickly/slowly you fatigue in those various positions, what subtle changes in position work for you & what doesnt, the subtle differences in trigger & grip etc etc.

If shakes are there, they are there...they dont cease just because you wind a scope back...so if you're going to miss the shot on 24 power because of shakes, your going to miss it on 3...a wider field of view doesnt change the moa you'll shoot...

If you can reduce the movement of the reticle on a higher magnificatiin, then using those same techniques your groups will most certainly improve on a lower power setting...

Winding the power up on my scope often gives me a gauge as to whether i squeeze off a shot or not based on movement of the reticle...

When it comes down to it, i wouldnt walk through bush chasing goats with a scope on 16x...& ill most certainly hit more rabbit heads at 250 yds with a 24x scope than with a 6x. ..
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by bigpete » 21 Jan 2020, 6:32 am

Wapiti wrote:It's interesting to read all the arguments either side of the debate from everyone.

In the 80s when mostly all we had were scopes up to 10 power, and variables were not known for their robustness except for a few expensive brands, we got by very well.
Going back 10 years, suddenly if you didn't have a 3-15x on your hunting gun, you were failing.

I remember falling for that too, and bought some things I can't stand now.

GUNS AND GAME magazine were a proponent of low powered scopes that you could mount very low over the bore, so were super fast to get on target and had awesome fields of view. They used bench guns to prove that groups shot on 2 to 4 power were as small as ones on 24x. I tried that theory and they were bang on.

Now, a hunting rifle for me has a 2-8x scope and is way big enough. A dedicated rim fire scope, with fixed parralax at 50m, has measurable benefits too and all ours have 2-7x as extremely flexible optics. Remembering that rim fire are "short range" cartridges too.

Anyway, maybe I can't see the difference between a between the eyes shot on game, and a target on a range. Except that, you can't muck about fiddling with AO or side focus because those targets have a tendency to bugger off if you stuff about.
y

Yep,read that many many times,in fact they often seemed to.shoot tighter groups! Andy Montgomery.especially did with his 6x47 bench gun. I've actually experienced it myself using a 2-7× on my 17hmr at 70m. Honestly can't explain it
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by mikejay » 21 Jan 2020, 8:49 am

As a newbie doing bench shooting at paper targets, I've had a steady progression towards a setup that is working for me, I'm now getting some consistency at 1/4 to 1/2 MOA for 5 or 10 shot groups, not all, some .... for now.

I think that's not too bad for a shortsighted (-4.1 left eye, -4 right eye) 50 year old IT manager that only got their license 3 months ago.

I'd credit a rifle that shoots well as the thing that makes it possible, a high power scope as the thing that makes it possible for me, a steady bag and rest setup that makes it repeatable, help and advice from you guys and watching a ton of videos about posture/positioning/technique the thing that lets me get better.

I went to the SISC Ballistics Testing Range and paid the $70 to do the ballistics testing on my rifle, that's where they clamp it in a vice and run 5 different brands and version of ammo (your choice of which) for 10 shots after a few fouling shots, and record the groups and speeds. This is all about your rifle and what it can do, it eliminates you and your abilities from the picture.
For my particular rifle, I found ammo it likes this way without all the guesswork and I found where and what I'd need to do to improve the group sizes it's capable of. I ended up lightening up the trigger, a full pillar and bedding job, bedding the picatinny rail and reshaping the firing pin surfaces.

During my journey I did notice the heartbeat issue where the scope would sway left and right in time with my heartbeat, and my groups showed it with what I called vampire bite mark groups, aka two sets of holes with horizontal separation. This is caused by my heartbeat being transferred to the rifle through contact with me, It has nothing to do with the scope zoom.
I eventually eliminated the transfer of movement by changing my posture and technique and as importantly, the front rest and rear bag setup to something with a little more stability. By posture and technique I mean I stopped fighting against the rear bag and rest to get it aimed in, my cheek weld now does nothing but push the rifle down into the rear bag.
I no longer use the squeeze bag method to adjust the point of impact up/down and I don't push against the rear bag to adjust left/right because neither is good for repeat ability, instead I use the front rest elevation and windage. Basically trying to leave the rifle in the rear bag and front rest is as neutral state as possible.

My setup is;

Front Rest: Caldwell, The Rock BR (bought it, stripped it down, modded and re lubed for smoother operation)
Front Rest Bag: Protektor, for Caldwell Front Bag 3 inch
Forend: Kaizen 3" Bag rider
Rear Bag: Protektor Custom Rear Bag Cordura Rabbit Ears 3 stitch
Rifle: Savage MkII BTVLSS
Scope: Vector Optics Continental Tactical 5-30x56 (Tactical version because I prefer the tactical reticle)

Image

A lot of the gear, including the awesome scope, and some of the advice I got from my LGS Badlands in Castle Hill, Can't recommend them highly enough.

The high power zoom lets me see, aim at and sometimes even hit a 2mm dot in the centre of a bullseye. I think it was in some movie but I think it's really appropriate to say "aim small miss small".
I find that using a scope at high power for target shooting, I'm not aiming for the general vicinity of a bullseye, I'm either aiming for the tiny dot in the middle or using a holdover dot right on the hard edge of ring. At low power you can't even see the dot in the middle or the exact hard edge of the rings.

If its ok, I'd like to post an unboxing and little review on the scope?
Last edited by mikejay on 21 Jan 2020, 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by sungazer » 21 Jan 2020, 8:53 am

I am going to say the same as Stix and SCJ429. If you are target shooting the higher magnification definitely will help your scores. BangBang if when your on a High Power and you can see your pulse this is telling you something about your setup that you need to fix. Something you wouldn't have known unless you had a high power scope.
Hunting can be a totally different kettle of fish depending on how you go about it. If you are stalking and shooting off hand then you really dont want or need a high power scope. If you are lying in wait with the rifle rested then a bit more magnification can be useful.
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by in2anity » 21 Jan 2020, 8:24 pm

Member-Deleted wrote:funny you say that, i sort of experienced that for myself yesterday. I was shooting a 223 off a bench at 100m with a 6-24x wound up to 20. i could see the target really well, but could also see my pulse in the reticle. I wound it down to 12x [still not 'low power' I know] and found it much better, and my groups improved.

You should practice squeezing the round away between heartbeats. Indeed it’s hard to slow your heart down enough to be able to reliably do this - but that’s when fitness plays a part. Also if you’re puffed or nervous your heart races, making this even harder to time. But if you practice with a sling and a scope, you get to the point where you can see the reticle jump as your heart pulses. But let me be clear, this is sling shooting - I’m not a benchrest shooter.

I’m a shocker when at the crossroads of (potentially) doing very well a comp - I get nervous, my heart races, and I choke :D still working on this
Last edited by in2anity on 21 Jan 2020, 8:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

Post by in2anity » 21 Jan 2020, 8:31 pm

Wapiti wrote:GUNS AND GAME magazine were a proponent of low powered scopes that you could mount very low over the bore, so were super fast to get on target and had awesome fields of view. They used bench guns to prove that groups shot on 2 to 4 power were as small as ones on 24x. I tried that theory and they were bang on.


Yeah this is BS. Even serious silhouette shooters use in the realms of a 36x. Let alone bench rest.

Granted excellent groups can be shot using a low power scope. Heck stunning groups can be shot with a service rifle. But give a high powered scope to those veterans, and see how the groups come in even further.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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