Help Needed - Rifle + Magnification

[SCJ429]

High magnification scopes are difficult to use for the novice competitor, I loaned a friend a 36x scope for his first comp at 300 metres and at first he could not find the target. He soon worked it out. Even a 12x fixed power can be difficult to get on until you learn to use both eyes open, see the target with your non dominant eye and bring the retical to this spot.

If you buy a scope with variable magnification of 4 to 12 power, you will leave it on 12x all of the time. You might as well bought 8.5 to 25x and wind the power back to 12x to get you started. Very soon you will find you are shooting on the maximum magnification all of the time.

If you bought a scope that was a variable 12 to 55x it would not make you shoot worse and there is a chance that you may shoot better. It gives you the flexibility to shoot at any magnification that you prefer.

[in2anity]

I would say pretty much any form of scoped target shooting ultimately lusts after more magnification. I shot rimfire metallic silhoutte comp religously for a couple of years (pre kids ), and in the end found my 12x scope to be lacking. My mates and I used to swap guns just to try new things. One had the 20x leuie on his Lithgow, and it was noticebly easier with the extra magnification. On the contrary, my other mate who was running the 9x leuie - definately harder with the lower magnifcation - sure the wobble is less magnifiied - but it's also harder to tell when you're on target to actuate the trigger at that precise moment...

Horses for courses however - I loathe big scopes when I'm out bush. I'm in love with the little 2.5-8x36mm leuie for precise field shots out to 200m. Such a great, compact little scope with more than enough magnification for practical applications... that's such a great scope for a light carry gun.

[SCJ429]

Horses for courses however - I loathe big scopes when I'm out bush. I'm in love with the little 2.5-8x36mm leuie for precise field shots out to 200m. Such a great, compact little scope with more than enough magnification for practical applications... that's such a great scope for a light carry gun.

Totally agree there, a fixed power 6x scope is excellent for hunting at moderate ranges but for target shooting is woefully inadequate. There is nothing like going to a local competition and seeing how the good guys do it. No point getting opinions from guys who have never competed.

[SCJ429]

Walther and Feiworkbau also make excellent factory competition rimfires. The hard bit is finding one within a budget.

[Sergeant Hartman]

Now now both of you get a room and kids and make up.

I quite like that rifle.... if i could afford to buy it. Haha probably well out of most ppl budget

[SCJ429]

Here is something that could be worth looking at, the barrel may have been replaced on this Anschutz. It would look pretty sporty with a Nightforce scope.

https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=165780

[Flyer]

No-one has made mention of parallax, which is perhaps one of the most important considerations for a 22 target scope.

Parallax adjustment – either side focus or adjustable objective – will bring the target sharply into focus at different distances, most notably when you are shooting targets shorter than 50m.

If you plan to shoot targets at 50m, you'll likely also be shooting them at 25m, so you need a scope that focuses at least down to 25m. Many rimfire target scopes focus down to 10m, though that may not be necessary.

For a target rifle The bigger objective allows more light in the lenses which is good. 30mm tube is better than 1inch tube, more ups and also more light. So go a 50mm objective if you can.

I don't think that's entirely necessary for a rimfire scope for a couple of reasons.

The first is that most target comps are shot during the day or under lights at night, when light is not an issue. A 50mm objective is fine for low light and maybe if you have a high magnification (bigger exit pupil, easier to get your eye behind), but it usually comes with a weight penalty.

30mm tubes are also heavy and they do not add to light-gathering ability. The only advantages 30mm tubes provide are more windage and elevation adjustment, and added strength. Good for hunting or shooting over long distances, but perhaps not needed for rimfire targets at 50m.

You usually have a better choice of scopes and rings in the 1" range.

You haven't said what type of target shooting you plan to do, but if you are going to be shooting offhand, you will appreciate a scope that does not add too much weight to the rifle.

If you plan to shoot rapid-fire or any discipline where fast target acquisition is important, you do not want too much magnification. Typically 4-6x at the low end is what you would use initially.

At the high end, higher magnification is better for supported shooting (benchrest, bipod, stand etc) or more experienced offhand shooters who can use it, but it's also something you can grow into as you become a better shooter.

Magnification alone will not help if the glass is poor quality, so don't just look at the magnification, look at the overall package.

Taking all these things into account, you probably want a 1" scope in the 4-16 or 6-20 range with a 40mm objective that focuses down to 25m and isn't too heavy. You'll probably want a thin or target style reticle for target shooting, or a normal plex style reticle if you also plan to hunt.

In your budget, Leupold and Bushnell make a few scopes you can buy new or second hand, while Weavers can also sometimes be found new but mostly second hand now that they are not being made anymore.

Leupold
VX2 4-12x40, 6-18x40
VX3 4.5-14x40, 6.5-20x40
You want the "AO" models (adjustable objective) that go down to 10-25y

Bushnell
4500 4-16x40, 6-24x40
These both have SF (side focus) down to 25y

Weaver
Grand Slam 4-16x40 (SF), 6-20x40 AO

Special mention goes to the Leupold VX2 3-9x33 EFR – it's a great little scope that punches above its weight and is very handy on a rimfire rifle, but if you are serious about target shooting, you will soon outgrow it. But it is a great starter scope within your budget.

These are just some examples of the more popular scopes you'll see at rimfire matches. Others may chime in with similar recommendations.

As for the rifle, you usually can't go wrong with a CZ new or second hand. They are cheap and far more accurate than their price would indicate.

My only other advice is to buy the best you can afford. I've seen so many shooters buy cheap scopes only to upgrade them in a short time. They would have been better off buying a good scope to begin with and not wasted money on continual upgrades.

[Ferrisweil]

“Buy once, cry once” raises its venomous head again. Agreed.

[mikejay]

I've recently got my license too and went through exactly the same thing. I settled on a Savage MKII BTVLSS, I'm a lefty and they come in LH.
I did a bit of research and the factory barrels on the Savages are button rifled and that Savage has a bit of a rep for making good to excellent factory shooters, of course you get crap ones just like any mass produced rifle. If I had the money I would have gotten an Anschutz64 MPR, if I had even more money I would have gotten a Vudoo V-22.

I too have been concentrating on paper targets at 25 & 50 meters, eventually I'll go up to 100 meters too.

My first scope was a mistake for this kind of shooting and I sold it (Hi Ziad), the scope I have now is by a relative newcomer to the market called Vector Optics, they're probably to best quality scope coming out of China, they're actually fitted with German glass. Don't forget 80% of those well known brand scopes also come out of Chinese manufacturing.

The scope Model I have is the Continental 5-30x56 Tactical Riflescope. As the model name implies its zoom range is from 5x to 30x with an objective of 56 mm and a tube diameter of 30 mm, it has side focus (edited this in when I read Stix's post and completely agree) The turrets track perfectly, I love this thing, feature for feature, quality to quality it compares favourably to big brand scopes 3 times it's price.

I'm 50, I wear glasses to see distance, but using this scope I can see and aim at the 2mm diameter centre dot on a SSAA 6 target card at 50 meters.

The thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is a quality front rest and rear bag setup is so dam important. I pfaffed around with a cheap Allen Citadel front rest and an Allen rear bag, I really wish I didn't, the thing caused so much frustration and self doubt. It's flimsy and jiggly and defines what a badly designed and manufactured front rest is. I wasn't able to get groups under 1 MOA at 50 meter with it. I eventually moved to a Caldwell The Rock BR and refilled the Allen rear bag with sand instead of the hollow plastic beads crap it comes filled with. I now get 1/4 to 1/2 MOA 10 shot groups if I take my time. The takeaway is don't scrimp on a front rest and rear bag setup and they'll serve you well.

Another tip from a newbie, good shooting posture is an absolute must, watch as many YouTube videos on bench shooting tips as you can, watch how they sit and position themselves behind the rifle. When I started I saw the cutout on most of the benches and I got into a bad habit of sitting in the cutout and hunching side on to the rifle, don't do it, it will screw up your accuracy and repeatability.

There's tons more to it, but I hope my little post allows you to ask the right questions.

[Stix]

Sorry to butt in here not having read everything previous to this...

Personally...id stay away from the "AO" style of scope...

A PITA if hunting...& also a PITA if target shooting...

I rekon there is nothing worse than having to move your shoulder &/or cheek position because you have to reach so far forward to to adjust the scope paralex...
Stick with side focus...

Also beware, many scopes are not in focus when the paralex is set, & visa-versa...so learn how to set the paralex properly, &/or align your eye through the true centre axis of the scope...

[SCJ429]

I don't think that side focus is a big deal for Benchrest. I use my focus to look at which way the mirage is running and don't find it upsets me. At short range you are probably not refocusing too often.

[Stix]

I find i refocus more at short range...
Depth of feild is more forgiving the greater the distance.

Anyway, not arguing...i just dont like AO at all...had one, couldnt reach the front objective/focus ring without being uncomfortable & shifting my shooting position, so got rid of it & wont be getting another any time soon...

[SCJ429]

I too have been concentrating on paper targets at 25 & 50 meters, eventually I'll go up to 100 meters too.


The scope Model I have is the Continental 5-30x56 Tactical Riflescope. As the model name implies its zoom range is from 5x to 30x with an objective of 56 mm and a tube diameter of 30 mm, it has side focus (edited this in when I read Stix's post and completely agree) The turrets track perfectly, I love this thing, feature for feature, quality to quality it compares favourably to big brand scopes 3 times it's price.
.

I have not seen a Continental scope, what sort of money did you pay for it? What big brand scopes have you compared it with? What types of competitions are you participating in?

[sungazer]

If you are target shooting though, Once you start the range some good advice is to not touch the scope. Either in zoom / magnification whatever you want to call it or parallax. If you want to adjust the parallax to a different difference to view mirage the use of a good quality spotting scope is much more suitable for the job. So the AO or Side is not that big of a deal for shooting target where you would shoot 10-12 shots at a single fixed distance. do it once then dont touch it

[Flyer]

Sorry to butt in here not having read everything previous to this...

Personally...id stay away from the "AO" style of scope...

A PITA if hunting...& also a PITA if target shooting...

I rekon there is nothing worse than having to move your shoulder &/or cheek position because you have to reach so far forward to to adjust the scope paralex...
Stick with side focus...

Also beware, many scopes are not in focus when the paralex is set, & visa-versa...so learn how to set the paralex properly, &/or align your eye through the true centre axis of the scope...

AO has finer focal adjustment than side focus and is slightly more forgiving.

If you're a competition shooter, you won't be adjusting your scope mid-shoot anyway - you'll adjust it BEFORE you set up at whatever distance you are shooting at. There should be no reason to be adjusting your scope midway through your detail unless you did not set it up correctly to begin with.

Some AO scales are better than others. Most competition shooters adjust their scopes to set target distances and then put a mark on the scope as to where that distance corresponds (in the event the scales do not line up). Ie, 25m, 50m, 100m etc (as most US scopes are also scaled in yards).

I completely agree that AO is a PIA in the field unless you pre-set it to a common shooting distance. For rimfire it could be 50m or 75m or whatever, but you probably won't need it much beyond that.

Parallax adjustment is not linear, so the greater the distance, the less it is affected.

Depth of field is a product of focal length, range and aperture.

So the bigger the objective (50mm vs 40 for example), the less depth of field. The higher the magnification, the less depth of field. The shorter the focal distance, the less depth of field.

The less depth of field you have, the more sensitive the scope is to focus.

It's for this reason a lot of rimfire and air rifle target scopes are AO and not side focus. For alround use, side focus is easier to use. The main problem is most side focus scopes won't go down to 25m or less for rimfire shooting, so that can limit your choice of scope. That's why I listed the Bushnell 4500 series, as it goes down to 25m.

[Flyer]

If you are target shooting though, Once you start the range some good advice is to not touch the scope. Either in zoom / magnification whatever you want to call it or parallax. If you want to adjust the parallax to a different difference to view mirage the use of a good quality spotting scope is much more suitable for the job. So the AO or Side is not that big of a deal for shooting target where you would shoot 10-12 shots at a single fixed distance. do it once then dont touch it

Absolutely correct.

[pomemax]

Just read this post I think one person Said something about your eysight to me that is one of the most critical points when buying a scope .
Do you wear any form of glasses other than saftey when shooting IE : I wear trifocals Its a factor with scopes.
Next is paralex learn what it is and how you set plenty on youtube more important than magification @ 50 m
on all my 22s I dont go over a 3x9 scope I find @ 50m plenty of mag.
Does your local range have 22s you can hire and try and if they sell scopes at the range look at other people targets with them see what YOU like , scopes are a personal thing what I like you may not .
Everyone will have an opinion on scopes and thats what will work for them.

[Flyer]

My first scope was a mistake for this kind of shooting and I sold it (Hi Ziad), the scope I have now is by a relative newcomer to the market called Vector Optics, they're probably to best quality scope coming out of China, they're actually fitted with German glass. Don't forget 80% of those well known brand scopes also come out of Chinese manufacturing.

Hey mate, there's probably a pretty big difference between German-made Schott glass and "Glass Reticle with Germany Tech" – whatever that means. I doubt it has German glass in it for that price. I would love to be wrong, but I don't see the words "Made in Germany" anywhere.

Light Optical Works of Japan makes glass for a lot of the mid-to-upper tier scope manufacturers like Bushnell, Night Force and the old Weavers. In fact, most of the better mid-budget scopes are made in Japan.

As most people who have owned a few scopes will tell you, you nearly always get what you pay for. And you won't know just how good or bad your scope is until you've looked through a few others for comparison. Of course, it also depends on your eye. Some people have good eyes and can pick the distinction, and some are happy with mid-range glass.

To some it doesn't really matter that much, but if you spend a lot of time behind a scope, good glass can make the difference between a good day at the range and a headache at the end of it.

[mikejay]

Hey mate, there's probably a pretty big difference between German-made Schott glass and "Glass Reticle with Germany Tech" – whatever that means. I doubt it has German glass in it for that price. I would love to be wrong, but I don't see the words "Made in Germany" anywhere.

Light Optical Works of Japan makes glass for a lot of the mid-to-upper tier scope manufacturers like Bushnell, Night Force and the old Weavers. In fact, most of the better mid-budget scopes are made in Japan.

As most people who have owned a few scopes will tell you, you nearly always get what you pay for. And you won't know just how good or bad your scope is until you've looked through a few others for comparison. Of course, it also depends on your eye. Some people have good eyes and can pick the distinction, and some are happy with mid-range glass.

To some it doesn't really matter that much, but if you spend a lot of time behind a scope, good glass can make the difference between a good day at the range and a headache at the end of it.

It has etched German made Schott glass, it sells for around $1K rrp in Oz.

[Flyer]

Is this the one? https://www.vectoroptics.store/Continen ... scope.html

Does it focus down to 15 yards like it says in the specs? It also says it takes a battery, so it is has an illuminated reticle?

I'm trying to find the bit where it says the glass is made in Germany, but I can't. They do list their address in Utah but have a Hong Kong number, which is a bit weird

[SCJ429]

You must be impressed with it then if you say it compares favourably with $3,000 scopes. Are you able to post a link where they say the glass is manufactured. I cannot seem to find anything.

[Stix]

[
AO has finer focal adjustment than side focus and is slightly more forgiving.

If you're a competition shooter, you won't be adjusting your scope mid-shoot anyway - you'll adjust it BEFORE you set up at whatever distance you are shooting at. There should be no reason to be adjusting your scope midway through your detail unless you did not set it up correctly to begin with.

Some AO scales are better than others. Most competition shooters adjust their scopes to set target distances and then put a mark on the scope as to where that distance corresponds (in the event the scales do not line up). Ie, 25m, 50m, 100m etc (as most US scopes are also scaled in yards).

I completely agree that AO is a PIA in the field unless you pre-set it to a common shooting distance. For rimfire it could be 50m or 75m or whatever, but you probably won't need it much beyond that.

Parallax adjustment is not linear, so the greater the distance, the less it is affected.

Depth of field is a product of focal length, range and aperture.

So the bigger the objective (50mm vs 40 for example), the less depth of field. The higher the magnification, the less depth of field. The shorter the focal distance, the less depth of field.

The less depth of field you have, the more sensitive the scope is to focus.

It's for this reason a lot of rimfire and air rifle target scopes are AO and not side focus. For alround use, side focus is easier to use. The main problem is most side focus scopes won't go down to 25m or less for rimfire shooting, so that can limit your choice of scope. That's why I listed the Bushnell 4500 series, as it goes down to 25m.

You slmost sound like youre trying to correct me flyer...
Yet slmost everything you say just repeats what i said...

Having serviced professional commercial & corporate photographers for 14 yrs forced me to have an understanding of depth of field, but a re-education can be a good thing....thanks...
So steering awsy from unnecessary laws of physics of light passing through an apperture, like i suggested, one will notice the great shift in focus/paralex at closer range than at far--like that required from 25m to 50m...but not notice the ssme 25m when its from 275m to 300m...depth of feild...

And no AO scooes DO NOT have a finer adjustment than side focus at all...!!
Well none that ive seen...
BOTH AO & side focus scopes ARE infinately adjustable from minimum distance to infinity...

I think maybe you're getting a bit mixed up with the fact that becsuse of the nature of the side focus set up, the diameter of the dial & possibly the gearing/pitch of thread difference between the 2 different mechanisms,, you have to move the ring more on an AO scope for the ssme correction as a side focus.

And while this may seem advantagrous for "finer adjustment", on the other hand, i see so many novice shooters at the range constantly fiddling with focus on AO scopes, because self professed experts tell them silly things like over exagerating how important it is even at 50 metres, when infact you can shoot just as good a group if your eye is aligned centrally for every single shot while the paralex is set at 45m...
And how a side focus scope will more rspidly shift in & out of focus, i believe is much better for a novice...
Also, as many scopes arent in focus when paralex is set, once the mirage picks up, a minor adjustment from paralex set to target in focus (sharper looking target through the mirage) can be advantageous for shooting tighter groups...
But then im talking from my perspectine of shooting groups/load testing with a 3.5kg kit through a typical hunting style scope & not an AO version of Hubble mounted on a ton of steel pipe......

And i like paragraph where you say there should be no reason to have to adjust the parralex--unless you have a reason to adjust it...

Agsin, i havent read everything here, but i stand by my suggestion...i dont think AO scope is generally ideal for a novice...& i dont like them...& i dont shoot comps...

[sungazer]

The Vector Optics Continental may be a good scope, however the specifications they claim have me a little concerned about their honesty. When I see mistakes about even understanding specifications or over exaggeration, it always raises those little hairs on the back of my neck and make me wary.

But if you are ever shooting to a depth of 300m under water it looks like this is the scope for you. Just don't be wearing my diving computer or using my specialized deep water regs as they are only rated to 200m.

[mikejay]

Is this the one? https://www.vectoroptics.store/Continen ... scope.html

Does it focus down to 15 yards like it says in the specs? It also says it takes a battery, so it is has an illuminated reticle?

I'm trying to find the bit where it says the glass is made in Germany, but I can't. They do list their address in Utah but have a Hong Kong number, which is a bit weird

It sure does focus down to 15 yards and yeah the reticle is illuminated. I can't find it specifically for the Continental either. They use 2 types of glass across their range, The German made glass or their locally produced LeREE Lens. I've emailed and Skyped with their tech guys and the Continental uses German glass.

Try http://www.scvector.com/ the www.vectoroptics.store is their US facing website.

[Sergeant Hartman]

Hey Mike, well i ended up selling it, as i have had a complete rethink on how i use scopes on my rifles.

Anyway, stix, i have both types of scope AO benchrest type and side focus tactical and BR types. The sightron 36x42 with AO has two full revolutions and can focus from 15y to infinity. So is the most adjustable i have seen.

But equally at 50mm diameter the AO focus ring will travel more for 5deg change, than a 15mm side focus knob. That's simple maths/science

[Stix]

Ah see...you getting the threads mixed up ziad mate...

This is where the typology comes into it...

[Flyer]

Agsin, i havent read everything here, but i stand by my suggestion...i dont think AO scope is generally ideal for a novice...& i dont like them...& i dont shoot comps...

I do shoot competition and have won club and state titles. And I'm a former professional photographer. And I own both AO and side focus scopes. My current scopes range from from mid-tier Weavers (see below) to a couple of Z5 Swarovskis. Many – if not most – of the top rimfire shooters at clubs around Australia use AO scopes.

Any "novice" shooter can use an AO scope. One of the first rimfire scopes I owned when I started offhand competition was a Leupold VX-2 3-9x33 EFR, and it is still one of the best. I used it to equal a club record in metallic silhouette at distances of 25-100m.

Here it is on my old CZ-452 silhouette rifle. I would suggest this scope to anyone, as it is one of the best for the price out there and very easy to get your eye behind:

Screen Shot 2018-03-13 at 17.45.37.png (1.14 MiB) Viewed 5133 times

Here is my current offhand rifle with a second-hand Weaver Grand Slam 6-20x40 AO. This one won me a state championship. I adjusted it once throughout the competition: moving it from 25m out to 50m. It cost $400.

IMG_2120.JPG (340.99 KiB) Viewed 5133 times

And here is my hunting rimfime (CZ453 Varmint in 17hmr). It has another of my favourite scopes that punches above its weight, the now discontinued Weaver Grand Slam 4-16x44. It side focuses down to 25y.

IMG_2123.JPG (383.06 KiB) Viewed 5133 times

Here is the Weaver's big brother, the 5-20x50, on a Sako Bavarian. This one also focuses down to 25y:

DSC_0413.jpeg (205.13 KiB) Viewed 5133 times

I'd put any of these on a rimfire as they all focus down to 10-25y, have excellent glass with lifetime warranties, and can all be bought new or second-hand for around the $500 mark.

[Flyer]

The Vector Optics Continental may be a good scope, however the specifications they claim have me a little concerned about their honesty. When I see mistakes about even understanding specifications or over exaggeration, it always raises those little hairs on the back of my neck and make me wary.

Yes, I feel the same way about Chinese claims – especially when the specs conflict with each other. But if it is what they say it is, it's not bad.

It sure does focus down to 15 yards and yeah the reticle is illuminated. I can't find it specifically for the Continental either. They use 2 types of glass across their range, The German made glass or their locally produced LeREE Lens. I've emailed and Skyped with their tech guys and the Continental uses German glass.

Try http://www.scvector.com/ the http://www.vectoroptics.store is their US facing website.

Thanks for that. If you're happy with it, and it stands up to the more expensive brands, then I guess the proof is on the pudding. It appears to have some good features for the money and there are some favourable reviews on the brand over at Optics Planet: https://www.opticsplanet.com/reviews/re ... brand.html

Thanks for sharing.

[mikejay]

Yes, I feel the same way about Chinese claims – especially when the specs conflict with each other. But if it is what they say it is, it's not bad.

Thanks for that. If you're happy with it, and it stands up to the more expensive brands, then I guess the proof is on the pudding. It appears to have some good features for the money and there are some favourable reviews on the brand over at Optics Planet: https://www.opticsplanet.com/reviews/re ... brand.html

Thanks for sharing.

I believe a lot of the "conflicting" info has more to do with language issues than any blatant misrepresentation.

I really like my scope, it does what it says on the tin.

I only meant to use my scope as an example of what I've managed to pick up in terms of function, why and what has worked for me as a newbie, not actually pushing one brand over another

[SCJ429]

My only problems with what you are saying is that you can get a cheap scope which is as good as something that you would pay a premium for. This is putting unrealistic expectations in the minds of new shooters who are looking for advice. No scope manufacture can make a premium scope for very little money and sell it to you for under $1000 AUD or for $400 USD.

You may get a quite useable product but they are not going to put Schmidt and Bender out of business anytime soon. If you were using top quality Germany ground lens then it would be front and centre in your advertising. We are all familier with planting the seed advertising where they say Germany designed or German Style to make the consumer assume that the product is something that it is not.