Flyers are they a real thing?

[peterb]

Hi all I have a Ruger Precision Rimfire and a Ruger American rrimfire and after putting around 800 rounds through them on the weekend trying different ammo I ended up with one bullet not firing I would guess that it missed being primed and 2 "Flyers" I was shooting at 50 and then 100 meters and had nice tight groups with the odd "Flyer" which I don't consider a Flyer because as soon as I pulled the trigger I knew I'd missed by 1-2 inches over 100mts so my question is are "Flyers real" or is it just us blaming the ammo for missing?

and yes i know when you reload yourself they can be a real thing but my question is for factory 22LR ammo.

[Wombat]

Yes. For empirical testing compare the number of flyers with high quality ammo your rifle likes to el cheapo ammo that shoots ok out of your rifle.

[TassieTiger]

If you have a look at a ammo factory and the methods to which they administer powder - I’m really quite surprised ppl don’t see more “weird” rounds...only need a few grains stuck together / over / under a few grains or a different neck tension or a primer that doesn’t fire the same as the others...
Have you never shot a round and thought - yep...that one is right on the mon...s**t, what happened ?

[peterb]

Yes. For empirical testing compare the number of flyers with high quality ammo your rifle likes to el cheapo ammo that shoots ok out of your rifle.

Most of the ammo was Cci Velocitor which I don’t think you would consider “el-cheap” but the miss fire was cheap Cci blazer.

[peterb]

Have you never shot a round and thought - yep...that one is right on the mon...s**t, what happened ?

Only 30 years ago when I use to reload myself. (5.56 and 7.62)

[SCJ429]

Flyers are real, trying to work out what caused them is the hard bit. Use a chronograph to see how consistent your velocities are. If your velocities are within five or so fps, then it is premium ammo. If it is 20 or more fps, then you have el cheepo.

[peterb]

OK looks like I've been real lucky since I got back into shooting, like i said the "flyers" I have had I could say 9 times out of 10 that it was me and the 10 Flyer I just thought I must not of taken much notice of if I jerked or moved and accepted it was me as being an incomplete paraplegic I shake something cruel. and just put "Flyers" down to me.
thanks for you thoughts.

[TassieTiger]

Flyers are real, trying to work out what caused them is the hard bit. Use a chronograph to see how consistent your velocities are. If your velocities are within five or so fps, then it is premium ammo. If it is 20 or more fps, then you have el cheepo.

I must load pretty s**t then lol.
I have paid insane attention to powder and weights and still seen 60-80fps difference - I assume from neck tension.

[Blr243]

I mostly know when I have shot well and when I have pulled a shot If I know four shots were great but I felt I did not do well with the fifth then if there is one flyer in the group I blame myself for it If I do 5 superb shots that felt perfect and the target has a flyer I then blame the ammo or the rifle .... as soon as the ranges open I look fwd to doin some practice with the tips you blokes have mentioned

[bladeracer]

Hi all I have a Ruger Precision Rimfire and a Ruger American rrimfire and after putting around 800 rounds through them on the weekend trying different ammo I ended up with one bullet not firing I would guess that it missed being primed and 2 "Flyers" I was shooting at 50 and then 100 meters and had nice tight groups with the odd "Flyer" which I don't consider a Flyer because as soon as I pulled the trigger I knew I'd missed by 1-2 inches over 100mts so my question is are "Flyers real" or is it just us blaming the ammo for missing?

and yes i know when you reload yourself they can be a real thing but my question is for factory 22LR ammo.

Flyers are real, and annoying. Learn to call every shot as you fire, then you should know whether the shot was good or bad, a good shot that goes wide (assuming it was not due to gusting winds) is a flyer, and outside of your control. If you are consistently getting close fliers though you should probably just include them in the group until you are able to shoot without them. Some ammo will invariably group four in a cluster and the fifth an inch away, regardless of anything you can do - you just have to accept that as being the normal grouping ability. When your first four go through one hole it is really hard to take that fifth shot knowing it's going to blow your group, but if you don't fire it you don't have a realistic group.

Bullets don't fire, cartridges fire. .22LR duds very often will fire if you rotate it in the chamber and hit it again.

[bladeracer]

If you have a look at a ammo factory and the methods to which they administer powder - I’m really quite surprised ppl don’t see more “weird” rounds...only need a few grains stuck together / over / under a few grains or a different neck tension or a primer that doesn’t fire the same as the others...
Have you never shot a round and thought - yep...that one is right on the mon...s**t, what happened ?

I am in awe of even crap .22LR ammo, how anybody can churn them out by the million, throwing precise one-grain loads, hundreds of times per minute, just astonishes me. Add the virtually random priming system, healed bullets, and the complex crimping that folds the bullet skirt back over the crimp - I just don't know how they manage to work so well.

[bladeracer]

Flyers are real, trying to work out what caused them is the hard bit. Use a chronograph to see how consistent your velocities are. If your velocities are within five or so fps, then it is premium ammo. If it is 20 or more fps, then you have el cheepo.

I must load pretty s**t then lol.
I have paid insane attention to powder and weights and still seen 60-80fps difference - I assume from neck tension.

Yep, tight ES does not guarantee tight groups, and loose ES doesn't mean it won't shoot very well.

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

Hi all I have a Ruger Precision Rimfire and a Ruger American rrimfire and after putting around 800 rounds through them on the weekend trying different ammo I ended up with one bullet not firing I would guess that it missed being primed and 2 "Flyers" I was shooting at 50 and then 100 meters and had nice tight groups with the odd "Flyer" which I don't consider a Flyer because as soon as I pulled the trigger I knew I'd missed by 1-2 inches over 100mts so my question is are "Flyers real" or is it just us blaming the ammo for missing?

and yes i know when you reload yourself they can be a real thing but my question is for factory 22LR ammo.

Flyers are real, and annoying. Learn to call every shot as you fire, then you should know whether the shot was good or bad, a good shot that goes wide (assuming it was not due to gusting winds) is a flyer, and outside of your control. If you are consistently getting close fliers though you should probably just include them in the group until you are able to shoot without them. Some ammo will invariably group four in a cluster and the fifth an inch away, regardless of anything you can do - you just have to accept that as being the normal grouping ability. When your first four go through one hole it is really hard to take that fifth shot knowing it's going to blow your group, but if you don't fire it you don't have a realistic group.

Bullets don't fire, cartridges fire. .22LR duds very often will fire if you rotate it in the chamber and hit it again.

Thanks for that feedback BladeRacer
I shot so many groups on the week end myself
So many times I would get 4x shots through the same hole
(Which looked fantastic)
But then on so many occasions, I would get a flyer on the 5th shot..
(Thus ruining the group with that darn flyer)
It's the most frustrating thing ever...
I was wondering about the nature of flyers myself over the week end too
This thread helps clear things up

[bladeracer]

Thanks for that feedback BladeRacer
I shot so many groups on the week end myself
So many times I would get 4x shots through the same hole
(Which looked fantastic)
But then on so many occasions, I would get a flyer on the 5th shot..
(Thus ruining the group with that darn flyer)
It's the most frustrating thing ever...
I was wondering about the nature of flyers myself over the week end too
This thread helps clear things up

When I have managed to drop four through one hole, I have wondered whether ejecting that fifth round and firing the sixth one in its place can rectify this situation, but I doubt it

[bladeracer]

Something else that can be worth considering is bullet damage during the feeding cycle. This will vary with each round due to the reducing magazine spring pressure, and with rimmed cartridges, like .22LR, the changing angle as each round reaches the top of the magazine. You _may_ see better groups by very carefully single-loading, but that's hardly realistic for a field rifle.

The bullet hits the feed ramp, scraping some of the lube off the bottom side, and potentially bending the bullet upwards at the case neck, rarely anything measureable, though sometimes it can be obvious, particularly when the bolt crushes the case. My Norinco JW21 (Winchester 9422 clone) is an example as the bullet tends to ride just slightly off centre on the lifter, tending to tear the bullet against the edge of the chamber. Sometimes it can be so far off as to hit the bullet dead centre and split it in two.

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

Thanks for that feedback BladeRacer
I shot so many groups on the week end myself
So many times I would get 4x shots through the same hole
(Which looked fantastic)
But then on so many occasions, I would get a flyer on the 5th shot..
(Thus ruining the group with that darn flyer)
It's the most frustrating thing ever...
I was wondering about the nature of flyers myself over the week end too
This thread helps clear things up

When I have managed to drop four through one hole, I have wondered whether ejecting that fifth round and firing the sixth one in its place can rectify this situation, but I doubt it

I will try doing that the next time I go shooting! LOL
I'll send you pictures of my targets from over the week end BladeRacer
They're actually funny to look at
I think I shot 4x or 5x groups on the week end
Where all the 1st 4x bullet holes would be touching each other (forming just one big hole essentially)
With that one last darn bullet hole being a flyer
Being further away from the group

It's like a curse that has been placed on shooters lol

[bladeracer]

Thanks for that feedback BladeRacer
I shot so many groups on the week end myself
So many times I would get 4x shots through the same hole
(Which looked fantastic)
But then on so many occasions, I would get a flyer on the 5th shot..
(Thus ruining the group with that darn flyer)
It's the most frustrating thing ever...
I was wondering about the nature of flyers myself over the week end too
This thread helps clear things up

When I have managed to drop four through one hole, I have wondered whether ejecting that fifth round and firing the sixth one in its place can rectify this situation, but I doubt it

I will try doing that the next time I go shooting! LOL
I'll send you pictures of my targets from over the week end BladeRacer
They're actually funny to look at
I think I shot 4x or 5x groups on the week end
Where all the 1st 4x bullet holes would be touching each other (forming just one big hole essentially)
With that one last darn bullet hole being a flyer
Being further away from the group

It's like a curse that has been placed on shooters lol

Yes, do that, I'll enjoy seeing them.

The "fifth-round-flyer" I think has single-handedly kept target shooters locking into the sport for decades, and also caused many to quit and find something less stressful, like golf

[TassieTiger]

Doesn’t help when you’ve got a mate spotting and you drop 4 together and he says “wow, very nice group you got there, don’t F this next shot...” you might as well eject it and throw it at the bloody target...

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

Doesn’t help when you’ve got a mate spotting and you drop 4 together and he says “wow, very nice group you got there, don’t F this next shot...” you might as well eject it and throw it at the bloody target...

Yup

[Gamerancher]

Yep, that 5th shot either makes you or beaks you. If you had consistent "flyers" on the 5th shot, sorry bloke but they 'aint flyers.
The bloke that states, " I only shoot 3 shot groups, there's no point shooting 5 shot groups for a hunting rifle", is just admitting his inability to do it.
Also, when you know you have not made a good shot, and it "flies" outside of your group, that 'aint a flyer either.

[marksman]

The bloke that states, " I only shoot 3 shot groups, there's no point shooting 5 shot groups for a hunting rifle", is just admitting his inability to do it.

not shooting competition myself l cant see why if you have shot 3 into 1 hole you would need to shoot any more
that's three headshots and to me and any more shots is only using up ammo and burning out my barrel,
3 x 1 hole shots proves the rifle is sighted and working, when hunting there is no 5th shot,
you need to stay shooting paper if you do need 5 shots

flyers are real but the reason for flyers is what needs to be said eg... bad bedding, wind, scope parallax, loose action screws, scope rings/mounts screws, damaged crown, ammo not being concentric, trigger control, hold, barrel heating up ect.....
sounds like a lot but if your gear is ok its just what you do that puts meat in the freezer

l'd rather practice on rabbit heads than paper, again when hunting there is no 5th shot but flyers and misses happen

[Gamerancher]

So Marksman, you don't shoot any more than 3 rabbits in a session then?
Well taken out of context ol' mate. OP and others were talking about 5 shot groups.
I've seen plenty of blokes sit at a range all day blasting away ammo, firing multiple 3 shot "groups", ( I use that term loosely ), that is when that quote is most often heard.
You must have magnificent gear that just puts three shots in one hole every time without having to "waste ammo and burn up barrels". ( Although, for a bloke that reckons he don't shoot paper, you seem to report doing a fair bit of it )

Also, there are plenty of times when you get to take more than 5 shots when hunting. Mob of 5 or more pigs, goats, rabbits, culling 'roos,... or is that just me?

[marksman]

dont want to take it out of context ol' mate
"there are plenty of times when you get to take more than 5 shots when hunting."
l take it your not shooting it at one target are you but your 5 shot groups are at the one target stop acting the fool
you want to make patronizing comments
"The bloke that states, " I only shoot 3 shot groups, there's no point shooting 5 shot groups for a hunting rifle", is just admitting his inability to do it."
deal with it when you get pulled up if l or anyone wants to do 3 shot groups at the range its none of your business
your earlier post cannot be seen as anything but condescending showing an attitude of patronizing superiority.

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

Here is my experience with "flyers" on the week end

I shot 3x groups on the week end

All 3x of them were 0.3" groups
(All 3x of them)

And then on the final 5th shot

I got a flyer on every single one of them..
(As indicated with the pens on this picture here)
(The pens are pointing to the flyers on the picture)

I'll try to work on it
I'll try to see if there's anything that I can do to avoid flyers for down the track

[SCJ429]

It helps if you know what caused your outlier. You could use wind flags and a chronograph. If the wind changes, the flags will indicate left and right, up and down. If the bullets velocity changes, you will see it on the chronograph. If there was no changes indicated by these, you have stuffed the shot and should probably use a rear bag and or buy yourself a $8,000 Walther, Feinwerkbau or Bleiker rifle.

[TheFirearmEnthusiast]

It helps if you know what caused your outlier. You could use wind flags and a chronograph. If the wind changes, the flags will indicate left and right, up and down. If the bullets velocity changes, you will see it on the chronograph. If there was no changes indicated by these, you have stuffed the shot and should probably use a rear bag and or buy yourself a $8,000 Walther, Feinwerkbau or Bleiker rifle.

Awesome
Thanks for the feedback
I'll look into it!

[bladeracer]

It helps if you know what caused your outlier. You could use wind flags and a chronograph. If the wind changes, the flags will indicate left and right, up and down. If the bullets velocity changes, you will see it on the chronograph. If there was no changes indicated by these, you have stuffed the shot and should probably use a rear bag and or buy yourself a $8,000 Walther, Feinwerkbau or Bleiker rifle.

Wind can gust both ways between you and the target so don't be quick to blame wind. If your groups are generally favouring one side of the target then you can figure they're being affected by wind. If you are just getting one flier per group, wind is unlikely to be the cause.

Velocity measured at the muzzle can also tell lies about what the bullet is doing down range. If the bullet has any deformity or eccentricity it won't follow your other bullets, despite perfect ES at the muzzle. With cast lead bullets with an inconsistent coating of lubricant, fliers are to be expected.

[SCJ429]

When I shoot 200 metre rimfire competition I think that wind is the biggest factor in the size of my groups. When you have calm conditions I shoot better but when the wind is variable the groups open up. When I look at everyone else's targets they follow a similar pattern. Your ability to read the wind is critical to shooting well. I have missed many shots while hunting where I had no idea where the shot landed because I did not see what the wind was doing.

[in2anity]

I find the 22lr a hard gun to use. Particularly from 100m standing, any lateral or vertical motion when you squeeze the round away gets greatly amplified by the time it lobs to the target. Yet 20m chickens do not suffer the same fate - at that distance the round basically just instantaneously "prints" wherever the crosshairs were.

Then when you switch to something fast, like a .204. At 100m, where-ever the crosshairs happen to be, it pretty well laser prints there... that's the beauty of a fast centerfire - they are inherently easier to shoot good groups with.

I know it's all relative, but I'm just listing a real world example at realistic hunting distances. The wind has exactly the same effect.

[Gamerancher]

"your earlier post cannot be seen as anything but condescending showing an attitude of patronizing superiority." Marksman

Please show where I said that I was better than everyone and that I could do it every time myself.
I suppose that's the trouble with written responses, it's hard to convey tone, some folks just read it different to how it's intended and get all fired up witha response. Whatever, settle mate, take a BEX and have a lie down.
By the way, yes, numerous times I've had multiple targets to shoot while hunting/culling, that's when it's good to know that my rifle will hold it's accuracy for 5 or more shots in quick succession. 5 shots, 5 goats, reload, 5 more, if I miss, I know it's due to me not my gear.

Back to topic, once again we have an example of every 5th shot out of the group. ( TheFirearmEnthusiest ) That shows a consistency, not flyers.
Time to analyse what's happening. Is it just shooter error, do you tense up when trying to get that last shot into the group? Only you can answer that.
Is a problem with the rifle, bedding, barrel contacting the stock, etc....
Fix the shooter problem first, it's the easiest one, you have to be real honest with yourself, just what exactly goes on when you fire that last shot?
You said, "I'll try to work on it, I'll try to see if there's anything that I can do to avoid flyers for down the track", sounds like a plan mate.