22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Lorgar » 04 Apr 2014, 11:13 am

Good taste in scopes ;)
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Chronos » 04 Apr 2014, 4:17 pm

Lorgar wrote:Good taste in scopes ;)


Agree, I own 2 6500's in 2.5-16x42 as well.

One is on my 7-08, the other on my .204

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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by pawnee » 05 Apr 2014, 11:39 am

Hi guys, my first post.

I shoot a .22 hornet still getting my loads tuned

30gn Barnes using ADI 2205 powder, at the moment using 11.5gn 2205 and groups are 1 inch at 100yds, still a lot more work to do.

40gn Noslers using 10.5 gns of 2205 and got them at 1 inch at 100 yds.

I have yet to crimp and change my COAL

I use cci small pistol primers and a lee collet die.

All my info comes from a expert who has many years of reloading, thanks Apollo.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by headspace » 05 Apr 2014, 7:00 pm

A 22 Hornet is one of the great classics along with the 270. It remains one of the best fox rounds ever produced and is a very accurate performer out to 150yards.

Mine was a K Hornet, and early Brno with double set triggers, and I still wonder why I sold it.

I generally used 40 grain Hornady's in mine. If I ever see one of these in reasonably condition I'd have to buy it.

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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Varmtr » 08 Apr 2014, 3:55 pm

Ah the old zkw465 nice little rifle headspace.

The hornet is a good round and cheaper to run than 22wmr if reloading. Anything within 200y and with my k-hornet cops a lead aspirin.

Other options depending on what you want is the 17 Fireball or the 221 Fireball. Or as I'm looking at is a 20 Vartarg which is the 221 Fireball necked down.

These are very efficient both running costs and ballistically.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Westy » 09 Apr 2014, 9:31 am

I'm just looking for a nice light quite round to shoot foxes and bunies out past 150meter any othe ideas????
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Oldbloke » 10 Apr 2014, 7:20 pm

Warrigul. Do you still have the load data for the "I used to load a .22 magnum projectile in the .223 down to about 2400fps for use close to town" I had a look in the ADI manual and didn't see an equivalent.

I'm thinking of trying it out
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Warrigul » 10 Apr 2014, 9:12 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Warrigul. Do you still have the load data for the "I used to load a .22 magnum projectile in the .223 down to about 2400fps for use close to town" I had a look in the ADI manual and didn't see an equivalent.

I'm thinking of trying it out


I generally don't give load data out(because there are so many variables and dangers) but for the 40 grainer I use AR2205.

I will have a look on my old computer for a few target pictures.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Apollo » 10 Apr 2014, 9:44 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Warrigul. Do you still have the load data for the "I used to load a .22 magnum projectile in the .223 down to about 2400fps for use close to town" I had a look in the ADI manual and didn't see an equivalent.
I'm thinking of trying it out


If you want to experiment with reducing velocities by around 1/3 and powder loads, yet alone using a powder not recommended for the cartridge I would suggest you send ADI an Email to ask their advice.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Oldbloke » 10 Apr 2014, 10:09 pm

Might do that. Im very aware that reduced loads can detonate with very nasty results. Will see what warrigul comes up with too.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Apollo » 10 Apr 2014, 10:18 pm

Oldbloke wrote: Im very aware that reduced loads can detonate with very nasty results.


Perhaps you are thinking of "Secondary Explosive Effect" which happens with reduced loads of "Slow" burn rate powders.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Kater » 11 Apr 2014, 7:13 am

Apollo wrote:Perhaps you are thinking of "Secondary Explosive Effect" which happens with reduced loads of "Slow" burn rate powders.


Supposedly.

Still yet to see a reproducible test proving this though.

Seems like there's more to it than just that to me.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Oldbloke » 11 Apr 2014, 11:00 am

Apollo is correct, it seems to happen with slow burning powders when you have a reduced charge with a lot of air space. And I believe it is a rare event. I think the burn becomes uncontrolled and a much faster rate than normal. This is perhaps because at the start of ignition the remaining powder is pushed like a wave up onto the air space crating a "cloud" with a greater amount of powder surface area than normal exposed to heat. A bit like dust explosions in silos. I may be wrong but I thought they were were considered detonations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonation

In any case I want to avoid that possibility. I will contact ADI.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Apollo » 11 Apr 2014, 1:38 pm

I would be interested if you could share the ADI responce.

Not that it's on topic but the SEE is not really proven under test conditions but it is a real risk of happening just like you say, like dust in a silo.

Greatly reduced fast powder loads I have no idea as I don't experiment with either way but I'd go along with some more common things I have found mentioned like inconsistant burn, velocity and accuracy since it poses the problem of where that reduced charge of powder sits in the cartridge case at the time of detonation. Like at the back sitting on the primer, laying along the side or up behind the seated bullet.

Not going to comment further on what is or is not safe as I do not have the expertise or knowledge.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Kater » 11 Apr 2014, 3:52 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Apollo is correct, it seems to happen with slow burning powders when you have a reduced charge with a lot of air space.


I'm not saying it hasn't happened but there has to be more it than that.

Apollo wrote:Not that it's on topic but the SEE is not really proven under test conditions but it is a real risk of happening just like you say, like dust in a silo.


That's the sticking point for me

Light charges may be part of the issue, but they can't be the only factor. If they were, you would be able to be reproduced it over and over.

For example... ADI data for 150gr .308 is 44gr - 47gr with 2208.

If a light charge was the sole cause then you could load charges at 43, 42, 41, 40, 39 etc. all the way down to zero, fire them all and find the point where SEE occurs.

Say it's 20gr... If you load up a pile of 20gr cartridges and the powder charge was the only problem, you should be able to get SEE to occur repeatedly.

If it was that easy, I'm sure all the powder manufacturers would have cracked it ages ago and could/would tell us exactly where the problem lies. I'm sure they'd be extremely keen to test and prove it if they could.

Again, not saying it doesn't happen, but I think people are too quick to blame things on SEE. Even more so when there is a picture of the aftermath of an explosion on a forum or something, and tonnes of people jump in saying it's SEE when they actually know nothing about what happened are are just looking at a picture of a ruptured rifle.

Not having a go at anyone here with that last comment, just an observation from elsewhere.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. I'm certainly not advocating going below manufacturer load data or saying it's safe to do so or anything to that effect... I just think there is something more to it than blaming a light powder charge. You never know what people did/didn't do to their rifles/cartridges before these things happened.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Warrigul » 11 Apr 2014, 5:34 pm

Apollo wrote:
Not going to comment further on what is or is not safe as I do not have the expertise or knowledge.


Good.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Oldbloke » 11 Apr 2014, 6:09 pm

Yep, probably is a lot more to it.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Westy » 12 Apr 2014, 7:28 am

Back To Topic...

Hey Oldbloke, look under Trail Boss in the ADI reloading book for .223, it'll alleviate all your angst with flash-over and give you a quieter round! :lol:

Now more about the hornet?
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Bills Shed » 18 Apr 2014, 8:32 am

Westy wrote:I'm just looking for a nice light quite round to shoot foxes and bunies out past 150meter any othe ideas?


Hi Westy,

I have the K- hornet and have acquired a 17 hornet a couple of months ago...

Both are great calibres but I must admit the 17 is the first one that I grab at the moment. It is so fast and flat. You see the result of the shot before the recoil is felt. Recoil is very slight.

I do not shoot factory ammo and all are reloads. Rolled a rabbit last week well in excess of 200m. Drop is only 2.2" at 200m. Makes short work of light skinned animals. It will give you over 750 shots out of a 500 gram tin.

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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by keen » 18 Apr 2014, 6:12 pm

Is 17HMR ammo not cheap enough that you'd just use factory ammo?

I thought that was kind of the idea of rimfire...
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Wobble » 18 Apr 2014, 6:13 pm

.22 LR ammo is peanuts (You know this obviously, I see you have a 22LR in your signature).

.22 mag, .17 HMR etc. though is still 2-3 times the price.

Not that you'd call that "expensive" but it is more...
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Bills Shed » 18 Apr 2014, 10:30 pm

keen wrote:Is 17HMR ammo not cheap enough that you'd just use factory ammo?

I thought that was kind of the idea of rimfire...


I have never owned a 17 HMR but I know that it is expensive to just throw the brass away. If you swage your own jacketed projectiles the KHornet is only about 4 cents per shot more to shoot than the long rifle.

The projectile is cheaper than the primer.

I love my little 22LR but if you want to reach out a bit the hornet family fit the bill nicely.

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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by keen » 20 Apr 2014, 6:53 pm

Thanks Bill.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Norton » 20 Apr 2014, 6:53 pm

keen wrote:Is 17HMR ammo not cheap enough that you'd just use factory ammo?

I thought that was kind of the idea of rimfire...


It's still well cheaper than centrefire, but expensive as far as rimfire goes.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Westy » 28 Apr 2014, 7:47 am

Well took the 22 Hornet out for it's maiden voyage this weekend and it proformed better than expected,was a awesome little shooter and seemed to preform way above it weight,All I can say is "LOVED IT" and now who wants to buy a Tikka 223 super varmint!!!!LOL
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Chronos » 28 Apr 2014, 8:07 am

Westy wrote:now who wants to buy a Tikka 223 super varmit!!!!LOL


I'd say this guy

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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Lorgar » 28 Apr 2014, 9:11 am

Good stuff Westy.

We all knew you were going to be happy with an Anschütz though ;)
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Davies » 28 Apr 2014, 9:12 am

Westy wrote:now who wants to buy a Tikka 223 super varmint


Stick it in the used guns classifieds.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Westy » 28 Apr 2014, 5:23 pm

Still deciding which way to Go?

The 223 is still a sweet thing.
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Re: 22 Hornet vs .223 Remington

Post by Oldbloke » 02 May 2014, 6:22 pm

Westy, Thanks for the tip on Trail Boss, I didn't notice that in the manual. Too slow for me though. I sent off an email to ADI regarding "light" loads for the .223 and just received this reply. See full reply below.

Reduced loads can be achieved for any cartridge with jacketed projectiles where AR2206H is a standard propellant. Refer to the loads for AR2206H and use 60% of the maximum listed charge weight to achieve reduced velocities of between 1500 and 2500ft/sec. Velocities will obviously vary for different projectile weights. This type of reloading should only be attempted using AR2206H, as it is the slowest powder that still provides uniform light up at reduced loads.

As an example, we have 27.5 gns of AR2206H listed as maximum for a 40gn jacketed projectile in the .223 Remington, so using 60% of this would mean a starting charge weight of 16.5 gns of AR2206H. You can then increase the charge weight until you find your desired velocity.
Please do not attempt to load below 60% of the listed maximum charge weight of AR2206H as light up problems may occur.
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