Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

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Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 26 Sep 2021, 3:01 am

Decided I want one of these but finding one isn't easy.
Anybody know of any around, preferably new?
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by No1Mk3 » 26 Sep 2021, 4:45 am

I don't know about new, but I think Tim at Recoil has one, be aware that although the rifle itself can shoot very well, the sights were fitted haphazardly with one of mine having the foresight too far left to be corrected without removing the sight hood and the rear sight fitted at a distinct angle to the right of the bore so I mounted a 1947 Meopta Malov 2.5x, original mounts, directly to the Norcs dovetail. Looks just like a mini-WW2 sniper! The other JW-25 is perfect, dead on sights. These actions are such a close copy of the Brno that I can use my Model 2A bolt in the Norc and vice versa, as well as interchangeable magazines to fit the Brno 10rnd into the Norc. They are great fun, accurate to themselves even if the sights sometimes need tinkering, and even accepted for our Military Trainer shoots, if I lay my 1930's mauser KKW 22 next to the Norinco then from a short distance they are difficult to tell apart, Cheers.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 26 Sep 2021, 3:25 pm

No1Mk3 wrote:I don't know about new, but I think Tim at Recoil has one, be aware that although the rifle itself can shoot very well, the sights were fitted haphazardly with one of mine having the foresight too far left to be corrected without removing the sight hood and the rear sight fitted at a distinct angle to the right of the bore so I mounted a 1947 Meopta Malov 2.5x, original mounts, directly to the Norcs dovetail. Looks just like a mini-WW2 sniper! The other JW-25 is perfect, dead on sights. These actions are such a close copy of the Brno that I can use my Model 2A bolt in the Norc and vice versa, as well as interchangeable magazines to fit the Brno 10rnd into the Norc. They are great fun, accurate to themselves even if the sights sometimes need tinkering, and even accepted for our Military Trainer shoots, if I lay my 1930's mauser KKW 22 next to the Norinco then from a short distance they are difficult to tell apart, Cheers.


Thanks No1Mk3, I've sent a message via his website contact form.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 07 Oct 2021, 3:18 pm

bladeracer wrote:Thanks No1Mk3, I've sent a message via his website contact form.



Lovely little rifle is hopefully in my hands next week!
Will have to do a video shooting it alongside my real Kar98k :-)
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by No1Mk3 » 07 Oct 2021, 4:25 pm

Good news bladeracer, remember the bayonet should mount straight on also, so you can do bayonet shoots! Cheers.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 07 Oct 2021, 4:57 pm

No1Mk3 wrote:Good news bladeracer, remember the bayonet should mount straight on also, so you can do bayonet shoots! Cheers.


It'll definitely be wearing the bayonet :-)
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by gunnnie » 14 Oct 2021, 9:29 am

Great little rifles. Bought mine 2nd hand about 12-odd yrs ago for $120. It was hardly used! Previous owner had bought it new put a couple pkts ammo thru it then traded it in. I grabbed it as soon as it was put up on the shelf for sale.

The later made models were very problematic, sights poorly installed, cracked stocks, action not bedded etc.

Took mine to the NSW CSP States and got a 3rd in B grade.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 15 Oct 2021, 4:37 pm

gunnnie wrote:Great little rifles. Bought mine 2nd hand about 12-odd yrs ago for $120. It was hardly used! Previous owner had bought it new put a couple pkts ammo thru it then traded it in. I grabbed it as soon as it was put up on the shelf for sale.

The later made models were very problematic, sights poorly installed, cracked stocks, action not bedded etc.

Took mine to the NSW CSP States and got a 3rd in B grade.


Got a similar story with this one, a few rounds then left in the safe.
Paid for it so just waiting now.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 28 Oct 2021, 1:35 pm

bladeracer wrote:Paid for it so just waiting now.


Just spoke to my dealer and my bloody rifle has been sitting at shop all week, with my permit!
But I have no wheels today :-(
Oh well, plenty of others to play with today, but I'll have it tomorrow :-)
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 30 Oct 2021, 2:07 pm

Picked her up this morning (and spotted another rifle I need!).
She is a little beauty :-)
As soon I got home I slathered her with oil, grabbed some ammo, and headed straight back out into the wind and hail :-)

I tried some S&B Subsonic. Sights are way off. At 10m with the sight at the lowest setting (the military-style ramp is graduated in 25m increments from 25m out to 200m, but I have no idea what sort of ammo it might be graduated for, if any) she's putting subs 45mm left and 40mm high, so I doubt the previous owner ever used the irons. No obvious indication of scope mounting either though. Moving back to 25m I was able to put them on a 5" gong offhand in the wind and rain by holding a full target to the right and an inch below it. 60rds then back to my office for another liberal oiling, then back to the real world of storm damage and crook cattle.

I'll mount a scope and do a big ammo test to determine what she prefers, then file the sight down to suit, and drift it over. I'll have to measure the ramp and see if it does actually follow a realistic trajectory curve. It'd be awesome to mount a period replica scope, but the rifle is scaled down from a real WW2 Mauser, and a full-size scope probably won't retain the aesthetic anyway. I think I'll enjoy the open sights more too :-)

My computer is down so I'll post pics when I work out to reduce them to be able to post them here.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 31 Oct 2021, 9:04 pm

Been another big day but I topped it off by getting her out just before dark.
I mounted a Chinese 3-9x40 on her just because it's fairly compact. It looks very neat on there, but it is not a quality scope. I don't recall seeing it before so I'm not sure where it even came from. I'm shooting through a wire fence eighteen meters ahead of me. Generally the wires are all but invisible when focused at 50m targets, these are very clearly visible while my targets are not at all, so I guess it must be focused around 25m. The only adjustment is the ocular ring, which has a very, very long thread, but I couldn't get the focus to change at all. It's been a hectic few days and I was too buggered to mess about putting a decent scope on, and it was getting dark and I really wanted to unwind with some lead-based therapy, so I boresighted it.

I would really love it if they'd done an internal 5rd staggered box mag and mini stripper clips(!), but it uses a 10rd polymer mag that I suspect is the standard JW15 mag, anybody know? I loaded up with Eley Standard to shoot her first groups. 1.470", not great, 25mm high, but 240mm left of point of aim. I don't know if that's down to the scope or if I just screwed it up, but it's certainly unusual to be so close in one axis and so very far off in the other. Made a large adjustment and group number two was .865", 40mm right and 12mm high. A small adjustment put group three on the spot and .790". Then a .655", .385", .785", .665", then two bad fliers gave me 1.090" and 1.400", but I was rapidly losing light. So I removed the bayonet (how often do you get to say that shooting .22LR!) to see where point of impact shifted to. 1.040", 1.355", .860", and .665" (four in a one-hole cluster). Impact at 50m moved up 21mm and right 8mm without the bayonet. Getting hard to see the 16mm squares of black insulation tape by now, but I switched to Eley Edge for four groups of .820", .910", .680", and .780".

I finished off with Highland RX HVHP at 1.630", .900", 1.055", and .940" but it was so dark that those groups would be meaningless I think. One sub-minute group shows some promise I guess, but I'm rapt if she can consistently hold 2MoA at 50m, once I determine her favorite fodder.

On a whim I decided to fling a HVHP at a steel plate at 183m just for giggles, as I don't know what the velocity was or what the drop might be from a 50m zero. The reticle is one of the standard Chinese faux "sniper" jobs with the ranging funnel and hold-over lines. I figured it'd be somewhere around four to five feet of drop, with just the lightest breeze from the right. I put the top of the duplex post on the top edge of the plate with about 50mm hold to the right, and got a lovely ring out of it, first shot. Another nine hits followed, and I couldn't leave it at that :-)

I loaded another mag, and got three hits, then a miss. I felt the breeze had softened, so I moved to a central hold, and dropped the rest of the mag on the plate. Considering it was essentially dark at this point I was very pleased :-)

One thing I found very noticeable, is how tiny the bolt handle is, but otherwise the little rifle is very enjoyable. I'll put an AR Optics 4.5-18x40 on her tomorrow and see how she does.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 31 Oct 2021, 10:03 pm

Trying to work out how to make pics small enough for the forum :-)
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by No1Mk3 » 01 Nov 2021, 4:27 pm

Norc JW25 Sniper (4).JPG
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Great work bladeracer, very happy you're pleased with this bunch of fun. I currently have the 10rnd mag out of my Brno 2E in it, as for a scope, I was running a Meopta Malov 2.5x for a while and have just changed to a 1959 Meopta Lesar, these are a 25mm scope but I retained the original mounts which slot straight on to the Norinco dovetail, looks the goods and shoots good too! Cheers.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 01 Nov 2021, 6:40 pm

I put a Bushnell AR Optics 4.5-18x40 on the JW25A this morning, but didn't manage to get out shooting until this afternoon. I boresighted it again and fired a sighter. I was very surprised to get almost the identical result as yesterday, about 250mm left and 40mm high, very strange. But a quick adjustment and I was shooting groups at 50m, with a best of .400". Around .600" to .800" being more indicative of its average groups with Eley Standard. After eight groups, two consecutive groups threw a flier off the page, weird. Next group the bayonet fell off, so that explained that :-)

I fired a few more groups, then switched to the Highland RX HVHP again, shot four groups on paper (best was .605") to check zero, which is about 45mm high and 18mm left of the Eley Standard. Then I moved out to the 183m plate. With double the magnification, and in daylight, it looked very different, the wind was significant, and the mirage was horrendous. My third shot connected, so I used the rest of the mag to get a feel for the wind and the elevation, settling on 250mm hold to the right, with the 600yd hold-over on the top edge of the plate, about 16-minutes drop.

I put a few mags on the plate with no difficulty, then noticed I only had seven rounds left in the box. So I thought I'd have a go at the 5" gong just barely visible in the grass. First two missed, but I thought the wind had picked up a little, so I increased the wind hold to about 350mm, and dropped the next two back on the plate to confirm. I gave the same wind hold on the gong, and put my last three rounds on it :-) If She can hit a 125mm circle three times at 183m, with Highland HVHP, she certainly has potential.
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I picked her up on Saturday morning and have put 347rds through her so far. With the weather that's apparently coming, I'm glad I didn't dawdle :-)
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 01 Nov 2021, 7:16 pm

I really can't thank you enough for letting me know about it, I couldn't have wished for a nicer example :-)

I meant to get some pics with the AR Optics on it today, but had to get into town to put a deposit on another milsurp I spotted on Saturday ;-)

BTW, if anybody is interested in a 1950 No1 Mk3* at a pretty decent price (in my opinion), my dealer has one.

That's a very neat scope, and that mount!. This little beauty is certainly impressing me, but my intention is not to run a scope once I've determined her favorite ammo. I was concerned she'd have Kar98k sights, which I hate, but the sight picture is conventional, albeit with a very wide front blade. The tiny bolt handle also makes it a little fiddly to operate alongside the scope without catching my damaged thumb. I had a closer look at the ramp and it doesn't appear to have a trajectory gradient at all, just a straight ramp. That's another great excuse to put a brick or two down range determining the sight settings :-)

A three-quarter scale ZF-41 and scout mount would be awesome though :-)

Now that the lockdown has ended I can make a run up to Melbourne to collect a pile of .22LR ammo I ordered in August. At least the forecast weather means a day spent on the road won't really be wasted.

Thanks again! I can't wait to do some proper ammo testing.


No1Mk3 wrote:
Norc JW25 Sniper (4).JPG
Norc JW25 Sniper (2).JPG
Norc JW25 Sniper (1).JPG
Great work bladeracer, very happy you're pleased with this bunch of fun. I currently have the 10rnd mag out of my Brno 2E in it, as for a scope, I was running a Meopta Malov 2.5x for a while and have just changed to a 1959 Meopta Lesar, these are a 25mm scope but I retained the original mounts which slot straight on to the Norinco dovetail, looks the goods and shoots good too! Cheers.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by Gun-nut » 02 Nov 2021, 4:55 pm

bladeracer wrote:I really can't thank you enough for letting me know about it, I couldn't have wished for a nicer example :-)

I meant to get some pics with the AR Optics on it today, but had to get into town to put a deposit on another milsurp I spotted on Saturday ;-)

BTW, if anybody is interested in a 1950 No1 Mk3* at a pretty decent price (in my opinion), my dealer has one.

That's a very neat scope, and that mount!. This little beauty is certainly impressing me, but my intention is not to run a scope once I've determined her favorite ammo. I was concerned she'd have Kar98k sights, which I hate, but the sight picture is conventional, albeit with a very wide front blade. The tiny bolt handle also makes it a little fiddly to operate alongside the scope without catching my damaged thumb. I had a closer look at the ramp and it doesn't appear to have a trajectory gradient at all, just a straight ramp. That's another great excuse to put a brick or two down range determining the sight settings :-)

A three-quarter scale ZF-41 and scout mount would be awesome though :-)

Now that the lockdown has ended I can make a run up to Melbourne to collect a pile of .22LR ammo I ordered in August. At least the forecast weather means a day spent on the road won't really be wasted.

Thanks again! I can't wait to do some proper ammo testing.


No1Mk3 wrote:
Norc JW25 Sniper (4).JPG
Norc JW25 Sniper (2).JPG
Norc JW25 Sniper (1).JPG
Great work bladeracer, very happy you're pleased with this bunch of fun. I currently have the 10rnd mag out of my Brno 2E in it, as for a scope, I was running a Meopta Malov 2.5x for a while and have just changed to a 1959 Meopta Lesar, these are a 25mm scope but I retained the original mounts which slot straight on to the Norinco dovetail, looks the goods and shoots good too! Cheers.


I'm in the market for an SMLE, could you send me the details of your dealer or the ad he has up for sale? Cheers
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 02 Nov 2021, 7:18 pm

Check your Private Messages :-)

Gun-nut wrote:
bladeracer wrote:I really can't thank you enough for letting me know about it, I couldn't have wished for a nicer example :-)

I meant to get some pics with the AR Optics on it today, but had to get into town to put a deposit on another milsurp I spotted on Saturday ;-)

BTW, if anybody is interested in a 1950 No1 Mk3* at a pretty decent price (in my opinion), my dealer has one.

That's a very neat scope, and that mount!. This little beauty is certainly impressing me, but my intention is not to run a scope once I've determined her favorite ammo. I was concerned she'd have Kar98k sights, which I hate, but the sight picture is conventional, albeit with a very wide front blade. The tiny bolt handle also makes it a little fiddly to operate alongside the scope without catching my damaged thumb. I had a closer look at the ramp and it doesn't appear to have a trajectory gradient at all, just a straight ramp. That's another great excuse to put a brick or two down range determining the sight settings :-)

A three-quarter scale ZF-41 and scout mount would be awesome though :-)

Now that the lockdown has ended I can make a run up to Melbourne to collect a pile of .22LR ammo I ordered in August. At least the forecast weather means a day spent on the road won't really be wasted.

Thanks again! I can't wait to do some proper ammo testing.


No1Mk3 wrote:
Norc JW25 Sniper (4).JPG
Norc JW25 Sniper (2).JPG
Norc JW25 Sniper (1).JPG
Great work bladeracer, very happy you're pleased with this bunch of fun. I currently have the 10rnd mag out of my Brno 2E in it, as for a scope, I was running a Meopta Malov 2.5x for a while and have just changed to a 1959 Meopta Lesar, these are a 25mm scope but I retained the original mounts which slot straight on to the Norinco dovetail, looks the goods and shoots good too! Cheers.


I'm in the market for an SMLE, could you send me the details of your dealer or the ad he has up for sale? Cheers
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 02 Nov 2021, 9:20 pm

Another 374 rounds down the tube today :-)
I'm going wear her out at this rate!

Bayonet fell off twice today. As I don't want to dress the bayonet or the lug with a file I'll leave it off for now, and she still shoots okay anyway :-)

Also removed the sling as it serves no purpose outside of aesthetics. And somebody put in a generic sling swivel under the forend, which makes shooting off a bag annoying, and it tore holes in two bags already, so I removed that.
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Approaching 400rds I started getting stuck brass from a dirty chamber, so at 447rds, I removed the scope and gave her a good clean. The extractor grooves were remarkably grubby but I have no idea how much shooting she's done before coming to me. Bore and chamber look very nice after a couple of patches.

I put the scope back on, then went up and painted some steels so I could see them through the grass. I set up two steel plates alongside each other to give me a target about 450mm square for determining wind, a pair of 5" gongs, and one half-scale silhouette of the chicken, pig, Turkey, ram. With the weather I'm being warned about I wanted to have a nice long session :-)
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I didn't bother shooting any paper early on, just continued on the steels at 183m. Was hitting the gongs fairly easily, until everything went out the window - that was the bayonet wandering around :-)

I was using Highland RX HVHP and trying to get a 10-out-of-10 on the 5" gong, but the wind was all over the place and I couldn't do better than 8/10. I put fifty rounds on the steel plates first trying to get a feel for the wind. It was skipping around between a 400mm left hold to a 100mm right hold, frustrating as hell :-) I was using a dead-on elevation hold though as I'd zeroed yesterday at 183m. Elevation only varied within about 60mm due to wind. I was shooting from a lee under trees, couldn't feel the wind at all, though I could hear it changing pitch above me, and I could see it blowing the trees around.

I gave her a clean and filled my tummy then went out again, this time with Eley Standard, as she seems to love it. Unfortunately the scope mount made no effort to retain zero at all, it was miles out and I couldn't see bullet splashes anywhere. I boresighted at 99m, sent ten rounds down, also with no idea. I came right back to a fence post at 18m to find it shooting 40mm left! So every time I've boresighted this rifle, I get the elevation virtually perfect, but the windage is consistantly around six-minutes to the left, mad. It must be some illusion due to the light coming through the bore, or perhaps the extractor is obstructing my view. Next time, I'll boresight it normally then give it 6MoA to the right and see what I get!

I shot three very nice groups at .475", .361", and .450" (all sub-MoA!) to confirm a 50m zero.
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Then I went back out to 183m using hold-over. I fired three rounds on the plates to find my holdover was about 6MoA down the duplex post at 18-power, very annoying. I wound the zoom out to put the point of impact at the top of the post at 11-power, much more precise. I only had to worry about cant and wind as I got back onto the gongs.
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This photo shows my hold. The plates are on the left (each is roughly 220mm wide by 420mm tall), the gong is buried in the grass, level with the top of the duplex, with about 200mm wind hold to the left. You can see that I'm sighting across a line of star pickets (for the electric fences when we move cattle), which was really annoying me, so I moved the targets around and repainted them during this session. Later on I also moved my shooting table about five-metres to the right, which also extended the distance to 185m. I had calves milling about in the cattle yard with me and their curiosity was getting out of hand :-)

I tried to get a 10/10 on video but I think I only managed a 9/10, usually dropping the first shot due to the wind changing while I reloaded.
https://youtu.be/P8gd9Yldv_E

After finishing off the box of Eley Standard, and moving my position to 185m, I switched to Highland RX HVRN. This shoots significantly flatter than the subsonic Eley Standard, so I wound it back up to 18-power and used the same duplex post hold. Again I tried to make a 10/10, but could only manage a 9/10. There was nowhere handy to rest my phone to record from there.

I set up a 50m target board to measure the iron sight graduations, but after discovering the mount won't retain zero I decided to leave that for another day.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 03 Nov 2021, 4:23 pm

I forgot to mention that it was quite warm yesterday, enough that it was uncomfortable to hold 10rds in my palm while loading the mag. So I got the IR thermometer out, the ammo was 42C, only 6C hotter than the barrel :-)
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 04 Nov 2021, 2:50 pm

Another 100rds through her today at 185m, but the last forty were rapidly giving more and more fails-to-extract. I think she likes a thorough clean around 300rds max for reliable operation, which is bloody annoying. More shooting and incremental cleaning should identify whether it's the chamber or the extractors getting dirty, or something else. I don't think it's the ammo as I've fired five types, in three brands, all of which I shoot hundreds of without cleaning in other rifles. Coincidentally, my Norinco JW21 lever demands cleaning around 300rds also, but due to the feed system it leaves decent chunks of bullet throughout the action. I even read about a guy that started to have feed issues in a Winchester 9422 (same rifle). He stripped and cleaned it several times until he eventually discovered a crushed case jammed in the action under the lifter - it had probably been in there for years as it was indistinguishable from the other components :-)

Wind was horrible today, it kept spitting the ejected brass back into the breech :-)

I mentioned this "I fired three rounds on the plates to find my holdover was about 6MoA down the duplex post at 18-power, very annoying. I wound the zoom out to put the point of impact at the top of the post at 11-power, much more precise. I only had to worry about cant and wind as I got back onto the gongs." in an earlier post, but I think I could have been clearer :-)

This is my hold to put bullets on the ram at 185m with a 50m zero (and no wind allowance), at 18-power, with subsonic S&B Standard 40gn at 1066fps.
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As you can see, trying to precisely hold "somewhere about there" down from the top of the duplex post is difficult. Without making any elevation adjustment, I simply wind the zoom down, enlarging the view, until the top of the duplex is on my target, in this case at 11-power.
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Now I can precisely place the top of the duplex on target for every shot. Note the crosshair is still about two log-thicknesses above the strainer post, or on the point of the leafy branch hanging out from the right side, point of aim has not changed, just the size of the reticle. Obviously some precision is lost due to the reduced magnification but we're shooting with more than two-meters of holdover, so reticle cant already degrades precision. Switching to 1240fps 40gn ammo I just wind it back up to 18-power and use the same hold.

This is the wind hold I used today to put bullets on the ram. The plates are about 220mm wide, so about a 700mm wind hold.
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At one point the wind was bouncing around and it occurred to me to try shooting a "group" in it. I dropped the mag and topped it off, and laid another ten ready to reload. I aimed at the tape at the junction of the A3 pages on the right edge.
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21rds made a reasonably neat group of 375mm, 295mm high by 275mm wide, centered 480mm left and 200mm above point of aim. Compared to Tuesday when I was fairly reliably dropping 8/10 onto the 125mm gong in slightly lighter wind, though not as gusty.

Still no sign of the storms they were predicting.
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I'll clean only the chamber and see if that solves extraction.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 04 Nov 2021, 6:53 pm

I squirted some solvent down the bore, then pushed a nylon brush through, followed by two patches.
Then went out with some Federal 510 and Remington Golden Bullet. These are both 36gn HP at 1274fps (measured) and 1280fps.

I wound the zoomies up to 18-power for the Federal and was right on the duplex. The GB's though only wanted 15-power, despite the close similarity in velocity and same bullet weight.

The F510 is excellent ammo and shot very well. The GB is generally junk but didn't do too badly for me today. I finished the session hammering the turkey with 30rds of it, just watching the wind flag and adjusting to suit.
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I put 7/10 on the pig before #10 knocked it over.
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The star of the day though was 4/5 on the half-scale chicken, that was amazing!
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Finished up as a pleasant 240rd day :-)

Zero extraction issues so it's clearly the chamber getting grubby. I might have to look at polishing it. I noticed the other day that the JW21 has developed a sharp edge at the bottom of the chamber that is scraping some brass off the case when feeding, so I want to put a muzzle lap in there as well.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 05 Nov 2021, 7:22 pm

Another 150rds through her today.
I shot my last 500rd box of Eley Standard this week, but got a call tonight and am collecting another case in the morning. Price is steep but I know the dealer can really use the money as they've just come through the Melbourne lock down. Collecting about 15,000rds tomorrow, not sure as I ordered it in August :-)

Was setting up a 300m target today but got distracted by a turtle in the dam :-)
Hopefully I can sort the target in the morning for some afternoon enjoyment.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 06 Nov 2021, 8:29 am

Pulled the scope last night to measure the sights. As I suspected, it's not a trajectory ramp at all, just an aesthetic ramp styling. It has four notches in each 25m increment.
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The ramp actually drops away at the end, with the "200" setting matching the 112m setting.
The base "25" setting only gives .084" of rise over the 448mm sight radius.
It's quite still this morning so I'm going try some open sight testing now.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 06 Nov 2021, 10:52 am

Well, that wasn't much fun :-)
Very, very rare that I get to shoot with no wind at all, to the point that it actually seems more difficult!

As expected, the open sights are not good, though I've seen worse.
This is the sight position for zero windage, the edge of the blade aligned with the edge of the ramp :-)
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I'll have to make a new front sight I think. The blade is very wide and just an indistinct blur on the sides and top. I'll file it down to about .060" wide, with sides, top, and rear faces all angled forward. By filing it all off one side it'll bring it a bit closer to centre, and I might be able to dress the rear notch the same way to help.

This is the difference between the lowest rear position and the highest, at 50m.
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The high group is at the "25" position, the lower group is at the "100" position. About 50mm elevation difference, and a shift in windage. Moving the ramp tends to give some windage variation, although the hinge feels firm enough.

With the ramp fully up, roughly a "215" position with the slider up against the hinge, the group is roughly 250mm high and 200mm right at 50m.
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I might swap the compact William's pic-rail aperture sight onto it just to see how she can shoot without optics, but that will require a different scope mount to use the scope as well.
https://shop.williamsgunsight.com/ecomm ... -54-001481

I did manage three hits out of five on the 410UB at 185m by putting the sights on the top edge of it, which was unexpected. At least I can touch the stock using the irons, no cheek weld at all with the scope.

I put 50rds of F510 through her then remounted the scope. This time it was only about 70mm left and 40mm high so re-zerong was quick. Then I dumped the rest of the second box of F510 on the steel at 185m. I was getting an excellent 5rd groùp until #4 knocked the plate over. It looked like about 80mm but I haven't been up to see as we need to go out. The last mag gave me one fail-to-extract so the chamber definitely needs cleaning every 300rds.

I have to say that I am loving shooting her with the scope as I certainly didn't expect such precision out of her :-)

Hopefully I get time to set up some longer-range targets this arvo.
Last edited by bladeracer on 06 Nov 2021, 4:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by Wm.Traynor » 06 Nov 2021, 2:47 pm

Is your aiming mark those two strips of black electricians tape?
You must have damn good eyesight mate :thumbsup:
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 06 Nov 2021, 4:48 pm

Wm.Traynor wrote:Is your aiming mark those two strips of black electricians tape?
You must have damn good eyesight mate :thumbsup:


Yes, the "diamond" formed by two strips of tape about 35mm long (the center gap isn't visible so I don't bother filling it in). Lots of practice has taught me that that is about as small as is viable for me at 50m :-)
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 06 Nov 2021, 7:03 pm

Just been up to measure the group I was putting on the steel.
If I hadn't knocked the steel over with #4 I might've managed a sub-minute group.
Four rounds in 45mm at 185m.
Maybe tomorrow :-)
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by Wm.Traynor » 07 Nov 2021, 9:39 am

That accuracy amazes me :o :clap:
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 07 Nov 2021, 12:10 pm

Wm.Traynor wrote:That accuracy amazes me :o :clap:


And me, because I know I'm not that good shooter. A talented shooter might be able to achieve some astonishing things with her :-)

I've only tried half-a-dozen ammo types so far also, mainly cheap bulk stuff. Even the Golden Bullets shoot reasonably well in her. I will have to put the 10-40x56 on and test some of the quality ammo, but favorite so far is Eley Standard at $980 a case, with occasional sub-minute 50m groups, although she does lean toward a clean bore, which sucks :-)

Looking into the history is also interesting, right back to the KKW German single-shot .22LR training rifle that sort of evolved into Brno's first rimfire. No direct lineage though as I think the Brno Model 1 was it's own design to try to fit into the KKW mould.
images.jpeg.jpg
Mauser produced KKW.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AzuEBnTinSg

When Germany invaded Czechoslovakia they took control of the arms factories to produce German weapons, like my Brno DOU 1943 Kar98k. They tooled Brno up to produce a version of the KKW (rather than producing actual KKW's) training rifle for "kadets" and Hitler Youth (to prepare them for the Kar98k when they joined the military, at increasingly younger ages by 1944). There was apparently a rare TGF-marked (just indicating that it was produced in Czechoslovakia I think) "military" version of the Model 1, but I believe most of the production were just standard Brno Model 1's, sans any of the military aspects of the KKW trainers. The Brno Model 1 immediately after the war, helped to get Brno back into production as a civilian producer. In 1954 the Model 1 evolved into the Model 2 (my first recommendation for anybody looking for a really nice .22LR). When CZ took over Brno (1967-ish?) it became the Model 2E, and then the CZ452, which Norinco copied as the JW15, including this JW25A repeater clone of that original TGF version of the Model 1 (I have never seen a picture of the Model 1 military trainer version though).

I'm still piecing this together from a lot of different sources that are often contradictory, so may be way off :-)

I'd like to keep it looking original, but the rear sight severely lets it down as a shooter. It looks like the notches are inconsistent, they almost look sand-cast rather than milled, which I think is the cause for windage variation as the slide moves along the ramp. And the slide sits at an angle across the ramp. The ramp itself does not follow an actual ballistic curve, just an aesthetic approximation. I think I would have to make a complete rear sight for it to retain originality (by which I mean being able to use it effectively with the open sights), a ton of work compared to sliding on a William's dovetail peep sight. I _think_ the rear sight is copied directly from the military trainer version of the CZ452, so I might be able to find one of those and swap it on.

Btw, if anybody knows of an actual KKW that I might be able to get some photos and measurements from of the rear sight please let me know.

In my searching, Wikipedia has a photo of Aussie cadets using the CZ452, which reminded me of a sudden memory I had the first time I fired the JW25A with the scope. The tiny bolt handle brought to mind shooting small bore competition with Army Cadets in '82/'83 - is it likely we would have been using the CZ452 back then?
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Re: Norinco Jw25A - Kar98k replica .22LR

Post by bladeracer » 08 Nov 2021, 12:00 pm

Her big brother came out for some sunshine this morning :-)
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I'll have to get some video of them playing together.
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