1st shot lands low

[MtnMan]

I have noticed that a few times now that my LA101 .22lr will sometimes shoot 2-3" low at 50m for the first shot after having not shot it for a while. It did it the other day when shooting a group to confirm sighting. It has done it a couple of times with assorted ammo and I put it down to a squib round but it is happening too often for it to be a squib round on the first shot all the time. I think it did it today again when I missed a gimme shot on a pest bird. missed it low.

Almost feel like you need to shoot a round through it before going hunting.

Anyone experienced anything like this?

[LawrenceA]

Could be a few things happening but 2-3 inches is a lot.
Do you clean the barrel between trips? If so try not
Are you changing ammo type?
Have you tried adjusting the tension on the action screws?

Failing all that it is quite normal for a barrel to shoot a little different until it warms up.
Have you tried waiting between shots to see at what point it becomes consistent? Not a solution but at least an answer.

[bladeracer]

I have noticed that a few times now that my LA101 .22lr will sometimes shoot 2-3" low at 50m for the first shot after having not shot it for a while. It did it the other day when shooting a group to confirm sighting. It has done it a couple of times with assorted ammo and I put it down to a squib round but it is happening too often for it to be a squib round on the first shot all the time. I think it did it today again when I missed a gimme shot on a pest bird. missed it low.

Almost feel like you need to shoot a round through it before going hunting.

Anyone experienced anything like this?

First guess would be that you cleaned the bore after you used it last?
If not then I don't have a clue what would cause this.

[MtnMan]

went to check the zero at 50m. First shot is the low shot. the next 4 shots grouped just nicely. subsequent groups in that session were spot on with no flyers with 2 types of ammo.

As I say it has happened often enough that it has come to my attention and surely the chances of squib rounds happening most often on the 1st shot is remote.

This was with weight sorted SK Pistol match special. Being weight sorted it's even more unlikely to be a squib.

IMG_8281.JPG (13.75 KiB) Viewed 4497 times

[MtnMan]

Barrel has been cleaned between times that I've noticed it. Did it a few times while testing various ammos after I bought the gun. Barrel was not freshly cleaned when this happened. Action screws have not been tinkered with. Have noticed with different ammo sometimes.

[bladeracer]

Barrel has been cleaned between times that I've noticed it. Did it a few times while testing various ammos after I bought the gun. Barrel was not freshly cleaned when this happened. Action screws have not been tinkered with. Have noticed with different ammo sometimes.

Not unusual when switching ammo, just stick with what it likes best. If you want to try something else, finish the session with a few groups of the preferred stuff to confirm zero if that's what you'll be grabbing for general use.

[bladeracer]

went to check the zero at 50m. First shot is the low shot. the next 4 shots grouped just nicely. subsequent groups in that session were spot on with no flyers with 2 types of ammo.

As I say it has happened often enough that it has come to my attention and surely the chances of squib rounds happening most often on the 1st shot is remote.

This was with weight sorted SK Pistol match special. Being weight sorted it's even more unlikely to be a squib.

IMG_8281.JPG

That's the sort of group that has driven shooters mad for centuries

[Oldbloke]

He is i think clear that it has nothing to do with changing ammo.

[in2anity]

Mate I compete with one of these, as do others, in 3-position walkdown “minicore” events (miniaturized service rifle) starting at 100m. Without fail, the first shot or two don’t group the same as the rest, falling low, as you say. Some others experience the same behavior. A hack we use is to put a couple in the dirt before the official sighters go onto the frame for scoring. All of us clean diligently, so I put it down to that shiny clean barrel. I believe it can be why particularly some hunters don’t clean their 22 as often as target shooters. I guess you could always shoot a fouler or two at the beginning of a hunt.

[Strikey]

Can't say I have noticed the 1st shot go that low with my 101 but I don't clean it now that its had a few through it.

[Larry]

Its common when using a larger caliber like a 308 at a distance of say 500 yrds and after cleaning the bore perhaps a inch low. First shot is usually about 60ft/s slower, hence a low shot. I have never seen such a large variance in a 22 at a short distance even after cleaning the bore.

[in2anity]

Its common when using a larger caliber like a 308 at a distance of say 500 yrds and after cleaning the bore perhaps a inch low. First shot is usually about 60ft/s slower, hence a low shot. I have never seen such a large variance in a 22 at a short distance even after cleaning the bore.

Indeed. My 303 also puts the first low from cold+clean, my TR also goes low, as does my 5.56mm service rifle. Always clean and cold. Not sure about the science behind it.

[No1_49er]

There could be a whole treatise written on this subject; come to think about it, there probably has been.
It is a fact; it does happen. End of story.
If I can find the thread I will post it here. The account is of a bench-rest shooter who also suffers the same phenomena. No matter what his regimen, it always happens. It doesn't matter what cleaning (or not) procedure, ammo type etc. etc. It happens. IIRC, he also did some velocity measurements and found that first one was always different. Reason? Unknown.
His own get-around. Always fire a couple of rounds "into the dirt" prior to any kind of preliminary "sighting" shots. Nothing to do with barrel temperature. Possibly the fluidity of the lube. Many variables and/or possibilities.

[straightshooter]

went to check the zero at 50m. First shot is the low shot. the next 4 shots grouped just nicely. subsequent groups in that session were spot on with no flyers with 2 types of ammo.

As I say it has happened often enough that it has come to my attention and surely the chances of squib rounds happening most often on the 1st shot is remote.

This was with weight sorted SK Pistol match special. Being weight sorted it's even more unlikely to be a squib.

IMG_8281.JPG

MtnMan
Much of the commentary is simply uncontemplated regurgitation of various anecdotes explaining why the first shot may be "out of the group".
Your picture tells a different story.
In your case the first shot is so far out of the group that some other mechanical explanations need to be explored.
I have no experience with a Lithgow 101 whatsoever so please excuse any ignorance that may be displayed, all I know is it is a modern design with all the kitsch must-haves sought by modern shooters.
First examine the scope mounting arrangement for any sign of looseness.
There can be some compatibility issues with weaver rings used on a picatinny rail or picatinny rings used on a weaver rail if things are not sufficiently tight. This can be minimised by pushing the front ring hard forward and tightening, pushing the rear ring hard backward and tightening and only then tightening the upper ring halves onto the scope.
There can be a problem with the scope.
Less likely is a bedding issue where the barrelled action sometimes can move forward of it's true recoil stop and on the first shot recoil pushes it back into position.
If none of the above solve the problem then shooter, ammunition and ignition may need to be looked at.

[No1_49er]

Sorry, 'straightshooter', I think your comment may also be a bit of "uncontemplated regurgitation" (your term).
The picture shows pretty much exactly what many, including bench-rest shooters have found. I will find that forum/thread, and post a link.
Note that the op said it is the first shot.
If it was the scope, then all successive shots would be out of any group that might have been possible.
"So far out of the group"? An inch or so at worst? Exactly as has been described by many other (very serious and competent) shooters beforehand. And here, we are talking about ammunition that will consistently shoot the proverbial "bug-hole" but the first shot will never be anywhere near that group.
IT DOES HAPPEN

[Bugman]

My Lithgow always throws a bit of a stray shot at first so I tend to fire off a couple of practice rounds before heading out to bunny hunt.
As said before, find the ammo that suits best best for your rifle and stick to it. My mate has an Anschutz that is the only 22 I have seen that seems to be fairly consistent from the outset. The other thing is that, with the ammo he likes, he only cleans the barrel after every couple of hundred rounds. His way not mine.

[Larry]

[quote="MtnMan"
Much of the commentary is simply uncontemplated regurgitation of various anecdotes explaining why the first shot may be "out of the group".
.[/quote]

What I posted is not a reguritation in fact it was a club wide investigation. A chrono was used on every persons rifle to measure the velocity of the first 5 rounds. The average difference of the first shot was at least 60ft /s slower than the rest. Using ballistic tables the drop noticed on each bullet could be explained by its velocity. The cause of this velocity drop was then investigated. A cold barrel was not found to be the cause. Dirty barrels and very freshly cleaned barrels were significant in causing larger variances.

[Bugman]

Most of the people I know who shoot competition, actually weigh each round, then those of the desired consistency are put into their ammo box, ready for competition. Appears to work. Just a thought, regarding ammo.

[Larry]

Most of the people I know who shoot competition, actually weigh each round, then those of the desired consistency are put into their ammo box, ready for competition. Appears to work. Just a thought, regarding ammo.

Yes correct I weigh all the components in my ammo other than primers. I use the Benchrest type which are supposed to have the added consistency already built into them at the factory. I use a scale that measures down to 0.001gm or 1 milligram so the overall weight of each round is nearly identical.

There is still the first round shot low phenomenon however.

[animalpest]

In our CZ .22 rifles, it's a issue with the first rounds fired with CCI Quiet ammo. The first shots can be 3" low at 35 yards.

Barrels are not cleaned. Weird but always happens.

[Wm.Traynor]

2-3" low at 50M is an awful lot.
I would love to know what this is about. Only ever heard of anything like this with barrels that had been straightened, which does not apply in this case AFAIK.

[in2anity]

I’d estimate perhaps an inch away from the main cluster, with my la101, at 50m. Obv more exaggerated out at 100m. Heck you can see the fall of the shot onto the dirt at 100, and I can assure you it ain’t where the thing is pointed. But then she settles down nicely. I’ve even snagged a couple of golds with that rifle + CCISV, up against pretty much all mag-fed 22s you can think of. At 100m subs do better because they don’t cross transonic. You can hear the supers down in the pit, and the groups are generally larger.

[bladeracer]

How can a mechanical issue outside of bore cleaning account for only the first shot being different. When I've had scope issues it generally gets worse with more shooting, it does not fix itself after the first shot.

went to check the zero at 50m. First shot is the low shot. the next 4 shots grouped just nicely. subsequent groups in that session were spot on with no flyers with 2 types of ammo.

As I say it has happened often enough that it has come to my attention and surely the chances of squib rounds happening most often on the 1st shot is remote.

This was with weight sorted SK Pistol match special. Being weight sorted it's even more unlikely to be a squib.

IMG_8281.JPG

MtnMan
Much of the commentary is simply uncontemplated regurgitation of various anecdotes explaining why the first shot may be "out of the group".
Your picture tells a different story.
In your case the first shot is so far out of the group that some other mechanical explanations need to be explored.
I have no experience with a Lithgow 101 whatsoever so please excuse any ignorance that may be displayed, all I know is it is a modern design with all the kitsch must-haves sought by modern shooters.
First examine the scope mounting arrangement for any sign of looseness.
There can be some compatibility issues with weaver rings used on a picatinny rail or picatinny rings used on a weaver rail if things are not sufficiently tight. This can be minimised by pushing the front ring hard forward and tightening, pushing the rear ring hard backward and tightening and only then tightening the upper ring halves onto the scope.
There can be a problem with the scope.
Less likely is a bedding issue where the barrelled action sometimes can move forward of it's true recoil stop and on the first shot recoil pushes it back into position.
If none of the above solve the problem then shooter, ammunition and ignition may need to be looked at.

[Rutabaga]

Mine is the same, except usually high and left 1 - 1 1/2 inches.

Cleaning/not cleaning seems to be irrelevant. After the first shot, it's fine.

[in2anity]

Most of the people I know who shoot competition, actually weigh each round, then those of the desired consistency are put into their ammo box, ready for competition. Appears to work. Just a thought, regarding ammo.

F-class do. Most TR guys don’t, except perhaps the top of A grade. You can still get 50.* with unbatched (quality) pills.

[Larry]

Most of the people I know who shoot competition, actually weigh each round, then those of the desired consistency are put into their ammo box, ready for competition. Appears to work. Just a thought, regarding ammo.

F-class do. Most TR guys don’t, except perhaps the top of A grade. You can still get 50.* with unbatched (quality) pills.

Even with 2 sighters allowed there are plenty of trees that cop a bullet in the base on the way to a range. As I said as a club and with other we tried to get to the bottom of it. The best we could measure was a velocity diff but not a fix other than shooting a shot down range.

[in2anity]

As I said as a club and with other we tried to get to the bottom of it. The best we could measure was a velocity diff but not a fix other than shooting a shot down range.

You boyz would know - that X ring is stupidly small Sure glad it's not my decimal

It's definately a phenomina - I can easily detect it, even with a blade foresight on an accurate service rifle. The mere existence of "blow off" shots early before each Queens day is proof of some anomoly going on. I thought maybe it's residual oil in the barrel, or perhaps lack of fouling to aid with "slipperiness"? Dunno. Don't really care too much, in a more formal event I just ditch my first sighter, usually.

[Larry]

Ditching the first sighter is the norm but its a big advantage if you can make those first two or one count. Its like a gimmie takes a bit of pressure off the rest of the string knowing you have a couple of xs in the bag already.. Even if thats not the case a more accurate sighter allows better corrections for the conditions.

[disco stu]

Thread on another forum talked about this issue, but the first shot was like 12" off. Break open I think it was

I'm intrigued how long or what occurs until that wild shot occurs again.
Some are saying they don't clean between and it happens.
Does it occur all year round or mostly in warmer months?
If you left it in the rest on the bench for a few hours and everything got back to the same temp as when starting for the day would it still happen?
Could it be along the lines of what someone else mentioned, after traveling in the car, being stored upright in the safe etc, that things have shifted slightly and the first shot settles it all back in? I'm doubtful of that one, but weird things happen. But scope is locked onto the action and it shoots the same as last session after that dodgy first shot

What else could occur in between sessions?

[Larry]

I really havent noticed it during a days shooting which would be from 9am to 4pm shooting three ranges of 10-12 shots each even when the weather has done some major changes. Its just the first shot. If you are looking for something mechanical I think you are chasing ghosts.