Looking for 22LR suggestions

[Lazarus]

From Nickwave?

I ordered a Hawke Vantage 4-12x40 AO from him yesterday. Hoping everything is legit.

Somebody going by the name 'nickwake'. I didn't run into any issues with receiving what I ordered, so hopefully it will be the same for you.

I bought my 10-50×60 from Nick, great price, saved $400 off the Oz prices.

[Biscuits]

>> we are buying 2 of everything (along with all of the other accessories and bits and pieces) and the last thing I want to do is scare my partner away with the bill shock .

Do you need to buy two? You could start with one and see how it goes. Or buy two completely different rifles/scopes for different types of shooting.

[Tomaus]

>> we are buying 2 of everything (along with all of the other accessories and bits and pieces) and the last thing I want to do is scare my partner away with the bill shock .

Do you need to buy two? You could start with one and see how it goes. Or buy two completely different rifles/scopes for different types of shooting.

We don't need to, but we would to, reason for going with the same platform (as long as we both like the feel of it) is basically to learn together. Me being a research nerd I can see me trying/failing with a lot of stuff and then helping her with what we find, just makes the troubleshooting etc much easier. After this we will likely go something different (larger caliber) each after a few months to a year but this will be a mainstay due to the cheap ammunition costs.


Thanks all regarding the scopes, checked that ebay seller for the Hawke scopes and although we will be buying local for everything else I can't pass on some of the savings. To that end I think this scope covers everything people have suggested, any gotchas other things to consider regarding this one: https://au.hawkeoptics.com/vantage-30-w ... sonic.html

VANTAGE 30 WA SF IR 4-16X50 RIMFIRE .22 (SUBSONIC) RETICLE

Saving nearly $300 per scope vs local RRP, obviously the typical things to consider regarding warranty/returns. Most likely at this point it will go with a T1X or LA101.

edit: just adding this will be for up to 200yard, but mostly around 25/50/100

[Biscuits]

^ That scope has a BDC reticle. IMHO that is ok for hunting where as long as it’s dead, it’s ok. But not precise enough for precision target. It would be ok for target if you only plan on shooting standing up, or shooting a fast timed competition as that is less precise than shooting prone or bench.

[Tomaus]

Ah OK, thanks very much, back to looking

edit: FFP is probably more what I am after?

e.g.: https://au.hawkeoptics.com/vantage-30-w ... ot-ir.html

[Lazarus]

^ That scope has a BDC reticle. IMHO that is ok for hunting where as long as it’s dead, it’s ok. But not precise enough for precision target. It would be ok for target if you only plan on shooting standing up, or shooting a fast timed competition as that is less precise than shooting prone or bench.

You're right about precision and bdc reticles, however, the way around that is very simple.
Just spend some ammo developing scope notes for each range and you're good to go.

I've developed notes for my LA101 out to 150m and if the wind and rain would bugger off for 5 minutes I'll take it out to 200m, to try for the 200m fly shoot.

[Biscuits]

Ah OK, thanks very much, back to looking

edit: FFP is probably more what I am after?

e.g.: https://au.hawkeoptics.com/vantage-30-w ... ot-ir.html

That’s what I would buy. But personal preferences still apply. Just because I like it, doesn’t mean it is the right scope for you. For instance, you still need to decide if you work in millirad or MoA.

What you can say about that scope, is that it will allow precise turret adjustments so you can have your target at the centre of the crosshairs, regardless of what ammo you are using or what distance your target is.

The problem with BDC is they only work well with a fixed ammo type. Put in subsonic ammo, the bullet will impact in one place. Put in high velocity, it will impact in a different place. A scope you can adjust easily accounts for that.

[Lazarus]

"The problem with BDC is they only work well with a fixed ammo type. Put in subsonic ammo, the bullet will impact in one place. Put in high velocity, it will impact in a different place. A scope you can adjust easily accounts for that."

Just because they have a bdc reticle doesn't mean they aren't adjustable.
Like any other scope they still have windage and elevation turrets, the bdc reticle is just for those who can't be bothered working up scope notes for whatever ammo you use.

[Biscuits]

^ Totally true and that Hawke with the BDC does have exposed turrets, so it’s easy to adjust. But I just think, if you are going to adjust your scope, why not make your life easier and get one with regular, evenly spaced millirad or MoA hash marks?

The other thing is that particular scope is second focal plane, so even if you calibrate the hash marks to your gun and your ammo, it’s only correct at a single magnification level.

[bladeracer]

The problem with BDC is they only work well with a fixed ammo type. Put in subsonic ammo, the bullet will impact in one place. Put in high velocity, it will impact in a different place. A scope you can adjust easily accounts for that.

Nope, BDC's work exactly the same regardless of chambering or ammo.
I use 223BDC on everything from .22LR to .303 and .44 Magnum, makes zero difference. The holdovers will generally be at specific distances, so unless you shoot at targets that happen to be at those specific distances the BDC is not relevant anyway. What you need to know is where you need to hold on the reticle at any distance.

The advantage of a second focal plane scope is that you can alter the BDC as well. My BDC has holdovers at 1.7, 4.4, 7.6, 11.4 and 15.4 minutes at 18-power. Winding the zoom back to 9-power doubles those to 3.4, 8.8, 15.2, 22.8 and 30.8 minutes. Coming back to 4.5-power quadruples them. You can print yourself a DOPE chart and use the zoom in conjunction with the BDC to use it in virtually any situation. For precision shooting you would avoid using BDC holdovers at all, dial the elevation to give you a dead-on hold to avoid adding reticle cant.

When you have worked up or decided on your load of choice shoot it at various distances and measure the trajectory at several points - with .22LR and other low-velocity cartridges, 50m, 100m, 150m, and 200m are good, with flat-shooting high-velocity cartridges 50m, 100m, 200m, and 300m are good. Also measure your muzzle velocity if at all possible. With the trajectory and the muzzle velocity you can calculate the BC of the bullet (ballistic coefficient is simply a numerical value given to how rapidly a bullet loses velocity due to air drag).
Then you can calculate your trajectory curve and determine the distances at which it matches the stadia on your reticle.

My 223BDC mentioned above for example, with a 100m zero with CCI Standard Velocity puts me on at 110m, 125m, 140m, 160m and 175m. Winding the zoom back to 9-power puts them at 120m, 145m, 175m, 210m, and 240m.

[Lazarus]

^ Totally true and that Hawke with the BDC does have exposed turrets, so it’s easy to adjust. But I just think, if you are going to adjust your scope, why not make your life easier and get one with regular, evenly spaced millirad or MoA hash marks?

The other thing is that particular scope is second focal plane, so even if you calibrate the hash marks to your gun and your ammo, it’s only correct at a single magnification level.

I've only been shooting for 50yrs or so biscuits, so I'm not an expert but I do know which end the noise comes out of.
The whole idea of working up range notes is so you don't need to to piss about with anything but the number of clicks from your zero point that you need to adjust regardless of whatever type of reticle you have.

I recommended those particular scopes because they were within Thomas's stated budget of $500.

As it seems to have escaped you, the concept of range notes is to record, for future reference, how many clicks, up, down or sideways, you need to adjust your scope for a given ammunition type at a given range.

[bladeracer]

^ Totally true and that Hawke with the BDC does have exposed turrets, so it’s easy to adjust. But I just think, if you are going to adjust your scope, why not make your life easier and get one with regular, evenly spaced millirad or MoA hash marks?

The other thing is that particular scope is second focal plane, so even if you calibrate the hash marks to your gun and your ammo, it’s only correct at a single magnification level.

Because then you could only ever use one bullet at one muzzle velocity. Why not keep your options open and learn how the BDC actually works, then use it for whatever load you feel like shooting on the day?

Nope, second focal plane gives you even more options as you can adjust the BDC stadia to suit your situation.

[bladeracer]

I've only been shooting for 50yrs or so biscuits, so I'm not an expert but I do know which end the noise comes out of.
The whole idea of working up range notes is so you don't need to to piss about with anything but the number of clicks from your zero point that you need to adjust regardless of whatever type of reticle you have.

I recommended those particular scopes because they were within Thomas's stated budget of $500.

As it seems to have escaped you, the concept of range notes is to record, for future reference, how many clicks, up, down or sideways, you need to adjust your scope for a given ammunition type at a given range.

Yep, take notes every time you shoot. You can swap among different types of ammo and know precisely where each load is zeroed and where each hits the BDC holdovers. Being able to make scope adjustments so easily is a big advantage optics have over iron sights. You could shoot a five-round group with five different loads at any range simply by adjusting the scope to zero for each shot just based on your DOPE.

[bladeracer]

^ That scope has a BDC reticle. IMHO that is ok for hunting where as long as it’s dead, it’s ok. But not precise enough for precision target. It would be ok for target if you only plan on shooting standing up, or shooting a fast timed competition as that is less precise than shooting prone or bench.

BDC's give you holdovers, so they're not really for precision shooting, but they work fine for practical shooting.
A member here used to complain loudly about the size of the BDC dots in my scopes covering the target to the point of being unusable, and yet I use them regularly to drop .22LR bullets onto 120mm gongs out past 200m, without losing sight of my targets behind the dots. A 120mm gong is a little over two-minutes at 200m - the reticle dots are only one-minute diameter. Out to 300m I switch to the 150mm gongs as my rifles struggle to hold tight groups out there. At 200m these are 2.5MoA, at 300m they're 1.7MoA and are very challenging if there is any breeze at all, especially using holdovers rather than dead-on holds, but they are still easily seen behind the reticle dots.

For shooting paper from a bench I can't see any value in having any stadia on the reticle, if you can see your bullet holes you can make scope adjustments based on them. But I also can't see any reason to use a variable scope when all your shooting is at the same target at the same distance.

[Lazarus]

Exactly Blade.
Unfortunately, new shooters don't seem to understand the "old" way of shooting, relying on the reticle to do all the work for them and their shooting, and unfortunately, the animals at which they shoot, suffer the consequences.

I have range notes for 6 different brands, both HV and subsonic for the .22 and at least a dozen for the .223 for different projectiles at different weights and BC.

Everyone has to learn, some will, some "know".

[Biscuits]

> As it seems to have escaped you, the concept of range notes is to record, for future reference, how many clicks, up, down or sideways, you need to adjust your scope for a given ammunition type at a given range.

I am well acquainted with dialling up and down. Infact I like long range shooting and have had to dial 44 millirad of elevation, or 150 MoA, in order to hit a target. If you are going to dial, why not get a scope where the numbers on the reticle match the numbers on the turret. Being able to get a cold bore first round V-bull on a 600 yard target with a 308 would be SOP for me, which is why I like long range - short/intermediate range is too easy.

Lets say you miss. Lets say you miss when using a FFP scope and you miss by 1.3 millirad. You know it is 1.3 millirad, because you can scale the distance between the aimpoint and the impact point off the reticle. Doesn't matter what zoom power you are on, because the reticle marks scale with the zoom power. You then dial 1.3 millirad on your turret to correct it. You fire again and hit your target.

Now lets do that with a BDC reticle on a SFP scope. Say a 4-16 power SFP with 16x being the reference magnification.You know you have missed and you and you see the point of impact is 1.3 times the distance to the first elevation hash mark with your scope on 9.5x zoom. You tell me instantly how many clicks you need to dial on to correct. You can't. You have to do some convoluted calculation correcting 8.5x magnification to some reference magnification. So you missed by 1.3 x the first hash mark. Converting to 16x power, you multiply 1.3 (your miss reference) x (16/9.5) = 2.18. Then you look up how many clicks from your table takes you from zero to the first elevation hash at 16x. Then you multiply this number by 2.18. Then you dial that. That is the definition of complicated.

Or you can just look at your miss on your FFP scope, see it is 1.3 millirad and dial in 13 of you 0.1mil clicks. Doesn't matter what magnification your scope was at when you fired. Doesn't matter what ammo you were using. It just works, every time.

I'm not looking for an argument and I don't doubt your shooting experience, which is more years than mine, or that you can cludge your way through with a BDC reticle. But why not make your life a lot easier by just buying a scope, where the clicks on the turret match the marks on the reticle?

[Biscuits]

The problem with BDC is they only work well with a fixed ammo type. Put in subsonic ammo, the bullet will impact in one place. Put in high velocity, it will impact in a different place. A scope you can adjust easily accounts for that.

Nope, BDC's work exactly the same regardless of chambering or ammo.
I use 223BDC on everything from .22LR to .303 and .44 Magnum, makes zero difference. The holdovers will generally be at specific distances, so unless you shoot at targets that happen to be at those specific distances the BDC is not relevant anyway. What you need to know is where you need to hold on the reticle at any distance.

The advantage of a second focal plane scope is that you can alter the BDC as well. My BDC has holdovers at 1.7, 4.4, 7.6, 11.4 and 15.4 minutes at 18-power. Winding the zoom back to 9-power doubles those to 3.4, 8.8, 15.2, 22.8 and 30.8 minutes. Coming back to 4.5-power quadruples them. You can print yourself a DOPE chart and use the zoom in conjunction with the BDC to use it in virtually any situation. For precision shooting you would avoid using BDC holdovers at all, dial the elevation to give you a dead-on hold to avoid adding reticle cant.

When you have worked up or decided on your load of choice shoot it at various distances and measure the trajectory at several points - with .22LR and other low-velocity cartridges, 50m, 100m, 150m, and 200m are good, with flat-shooting high-velocity cartridges 50m, 100m, 200m, and 300m are good. Also measure your muzzle velocity if at all possible. With the trajectory and the muzzle velocity you can calculate the BC of the bullet (ballistic coefficient is simply a numerical value given to how rapidly a bullet loses velocity due to air drag).
Then you can calculate your trajectory curve and determine the distances at which it matches the stadia on your reticle.

My 223BDC mentioned above for example, with a 100m zero with CCI Standard Velocity puts me on at 110m, 125m, 140m, 160m and 175m. Winding the zoom back to 9-power puts them at 120m, 145m, 175m, 210m, and 240m.

Err, BDCs don't work the same regardless of chambering or ammo. Your holdovers on the reticle vary by ammo type and they vary by the zoom power on your scope.

There's nothing to stop you from chronographing your rounds and developing a table with a FFP, regular subtension reticle (millirad or MoA) scope. In fact that is standard practice. But once you have done that, your scope clicks directly match your reticle marks. Unlike some esoteric function with a SFP BDC, where the number of clicks gives a variable elevation change in your scope reticle, which doesn't have even subtensions to further complicate things.

Like I said, BDC is fine for hunting at moderate range and fine for offhand, where you wobble a bit anyway. For precision, it makes your shooting unnecessarily difficult instead of maths you can do in your head.

[Lazarus]

> As it seems to have escaped you, the concept of range notes is to record, for future reference, how many clicks, up, down or sideways, you need to adjust your scope for a given ammunition type at a given range.

I am well acquainted with dialling up and down. Infact I like long range shooting and have had to dial 44 millirad of elevation, or 150 MoA, in order to hit a target. If you are going to dial, why not get a scope where the numbers on the reticle match the numbers on the turret. Being able to get a cold bore first round V-bull on a 600 yard target with a 308 would be SOP for me, which is why I like long range - short/intermediate range is too easy.

Lets say you miss. Lets say you miss when using a FFP scope and you miss by 1.3 millirad. You know it is 1.3 millirad, because you can scale the distance between the aimpoint and the impact point off the reticle. Doesn't matter what zoom power you are on, because the reticle marks scale with the zoom power. You then dial 1.3 millirad on your turret to correct it. You fire again and hit your target.

Now lets do that with a BDC reticle on a SFP scope. Say a 4-16 power SFP with 16x being the reference magnification.You know you have missed and you and you see the point of impact is 1.3 times the distance to the first elevation hash mark with your scope on 9.5x zoom. You tell me instantly how many clicks you need to dial on to correct. You can't. You have to do some convoluted calculation correcting 8.5x magnification to some reference magnification. So you missed by 1.3 x the first hash mark. Converting to 16x power, you multiply 1.3 (your miss reference) x (16/9.5) = 2.18. Then you look up how many clicks from your table takes you from zero to the first elevation hash at 16x. Then you multiply this number by 2.18. Then you dial that. That is the definition of complicated.

Or you can just look at your miss on your FFP scope, see it is 1.3 millirad and dial in 13 of you 0.1mil clicks. Doesn't matter what magnification your scope was at when you fired. Doesn't matter what ammo you were using. It just works, every time.

I'm not looking for an argument and I don't doubt your shooting experience, which is more years than mine, or that you can cludge your way through with a BDC reticle. But why not make your life a lot easier by just buying a scope, where the clicks on the turret match the marks on the reticle?

Ahhh, sorry old sweet, I wasn't aware I was talking to the "Australian Sniper".

As to "buying a scope where the clicks match the marks on the reticle", if you need your scope to tell you how to shoot or where to shoot, you need to stick to the Playstation.

As to "Doesn't matter what magnification your scope was at when you fired. Doesn't matter what ammo you were using. It just works, every time." this is pure neophyte nonsense.

Doesn't matter what ammo you're using? Seriously?

What about different weights?

What about different BC?

What about different loads?

What about different seating depth?

What about taking up golf?

[Biscuits]

From Nickwave?

I ordered a Hawke Vantage 4-12x40 AO from him yesterday. Hoping everything is legit.

Somebody going by the name 'nickwake'. I didn't run into any issues with receiving what I ordered, so hopefully it will be the same for you.

I bought my 10-50×60 from Nick, great price, saved $400 off the Oz prices.

I think this is the same person who runs this shop:
https://www.tacticalscope.co.uk/about-us-1-w.asp

I used to live in the U.K. and bought several things over several transactions off him. Have also talked to him on the phone. Very helpful and everything turned up as described. Would recommend him.

Beware that depending on the value of your purchase, you may need to pay inbound GST and whatever duty is applicable.

[bladeracer]

I am well acquainted with dialling up and down. In fact I like long range shooting and have had to dial 44 millirad of elevation, or 150 MoA, in order to hit a target. If you are going to dial, why not get a scope where the numbers on the reticle match the numbers on the turret. Being able to get a cold bore first round V-bull on a 600 yard target with a 308 would be SOP for me, which is why I like long range - short/intermediate range is too easy.

Lets say you miss. Lets say you miss when using a FFP scope and you miss by 1.3 millirad. You know it is 1.3 millirad, because you can scale the distance between the aimpoint and the impact point off the reticle. Doesn't matter what zoom power you are on, because the reticle marks scale with the zoom power. You then dial 1.3 millirad on your turret to correct it. You fire again and hit your target.

Now lets do that with a BDC reticle on a SFP scope. Say a 4-16 power SFP with 16x being the reference magnification.You know you have missed and you and you see the point of impact is 1.3 times the distance to the first elevation hash mark with your scope on 9.5x zoom. You tell me instantly how many clicks you need to dial on to correct. You can't. You have to do some convoluted calculation correcting 8.5x magnification to some reference magnification. So you missed by 1.3 x the first hash mark. Converting to 16x power, you multiply 1.3 (your miss reference) x (16/9.5) = 2.18. Then you look up how many clicks from your table takes you from zero to the first elevation hash at 16x. Then you multiply this number by 2.18. Then you dial that. That is the definition of complicated.

Or you can just look at your miss on your FFP scope, see it is 1.3 millirad and dial in 13 of you 0.1mil clicks. Doesn't matter what magnification your scope was at when you fired. Doesn't matter what ammo you were using. It just works, every time.

I'm not looking for an argument and I don't doubt your shooting experience, which is more years than mine, or that you can cludge your way through with a BDC reticle. But why not make your life a lot easier by just buying a scope, where the clicks on the turret match the marks on the reticle?

I do it the same way, without adding the complication you think is required. If I have the zoom dialled back for some reason, I already know what the subtensions are, that is very likely the reason I have the zoom dialled to where it is. But the vast majority of my long-range shooting is at full zoom anyway. So, I can see how many minutes my miss is, regardless of the magnification since I know what the subtensions are at the magnification I'm using, hold or dial to suit, and take a follow-up shot. The only difference I can see is that I have put in many, many hours and tens of thousands of rounds practicing with my scope and discovering _all_ of its capabilities, not just what it says on the box. It's the reason I use the same scope on all my rifles, with the same 223BDC reticle - intimate familiarity with the equipment. I only need to remember five numbers, the same numbers I've used for years now - 1.7, 4.4, 7.6, 11.4, and 15.4. Knowing those numbers I can make any relevant calculations in my head as required. The scope only adjusts in quarter-minutes so I don't need three decimal accuracy. When you're doing every week it becomes second nature.

To do it the way you suggest I would need a different scope for each rifle, and each load. I chose to learn how to use the scope instead, then it works on whatever rifle I'm using and whatever load I'm shooting.

[Biscuits]

> As it seems to have escaped you, the concept of range notes is to record, for future reference, how many clicks, up, down or sideways, you need to adjust your scope for a given ammunition type at a given range.

I am well acquainted with dialling up and down. Infact I like long range shooting and have had to dial 44 millirad of elevation, or 150 MoA, in order to hit a target. If you are going to dial, why not get a scope where the numbers on the reticle match the numbers on the turret. Being able to get a cold bore first round V-bull on a 600 yard target with a 308 would be SOP for me, which is why I like long range - short/intermediate range is too easy.

Lets say you miss. Lets say you miss when using a FFP scope and you miss by 1.3 millirad. You know it is 1.3 millirad, because you can scale the distance between the aimpoint and the impact point off the reticle. Doesn't matter what zoom power you are on, because the reticle marks scale with the zoom power. You then dial 1.3 millirad on your turret to correct it. You fire again and hit your target.

Now lets do that with a BDC reticle on a SFP scope. Say a 4-16 power SFP with 16x being the reference magnification.You know you have missed and you and you see the point of impact is 1.3 times the distance to the first elevation hash mark with your scope on 9.5x zoom. You tell me instantly how many clicks you need to dial on to correct. You can't. You have to do some convoluted calculation correcting 8.5x magnification to some reference magnification. So you missed by 1.3 x the first hash mark. Converting to 16x power, you multiply 1.3 (your miss reference) x (16/9.5) = 2.18. Then you look up how many clicks from your table takes you from zero to the first elevation hash at 16x. Then you multiply this number by 2.18. Then you dial that. That is the definition of complicated.

Or you can just look at your miss on your FFP scope, see it is 1.3 millirad and dial in 13 of you 0.1mil clicks. Doesn't matter what magnification your scope was at when you fired. Doesn't matter what ammo you were using. It just works, every time.

I'm not looking for an argument and I don't doubt your shooting experience, which is more years than mine, or that you can cludge your way through with a BDC reticle. But why not make your life a lot easier by just buying a scope, where the clicks on the turret match the marks on the reticle?

Ahhh, sorry old sweet, I wasn't aware I was talking to the "Australian Sniper".

As to "buying a scope where the clicks match the marks on the reticle", if you need your scope to tell you how to shoot or where to shoot, you need to stick to the Playstation.

As to "Doesn't matter what magnification your scope was at when you fired. Doesn't matter what ammo you were using. It just works, every time." this is pure neophyte nonsense.

Doesn't matter what ammo you're using? Seriously?

What about different weights?

What about different BC?

What about different loads?

What about different seating depth?

What about taking up golf?

I do not know why you a looking for a fight, but clearly you are. So to be blunt, you are fudging your way through based on what you did decades ago and refusing to accept any other method, even if easier. Millirad turret, millirad reticle scopes have only been around about 20 years, it must be too new for you.

You mention seating depth. We are not taking about reloading. This is a thread about a 22LR rifle, which you cannot reload.

You have read things into my post which are not there. I made no comment about not using ballistic coefficient or muzzle velocity or bullet weight in calculating an aiming solution. You just decided, incorrectly, that I ignore them. What else have you not read properly?

If you have calculated an aiming solution and that has resulted in a 1.3 mil miss (using my earlier example) then that is independent of ammo. You need to correct your aim by 1.3 mil. Doesn’t matter if you missed by that 1.3 mil with 22LR, 308 or 50BMG, if you observe a 1.3 mil miss, a 1.3 mil correction applies.

Using my example above of an observed miss by 1.3 of whatever are your hash marks on your SFP BDC scope at a mid range magnification, explain to me your process of resetting for turrets, within 5 seconds say, without using a pen, calculator or tables. To get a hit at the centre of the crosshairs on the next shot. That would be easy with a FFP scope and millirad reticle. How would you do it with your SFP BDC scope?

[bladeracer]

Err, BDCs don't work the same regardless of chambering or ammo. Your holdovers on the reticle vary by ammo type and they vary by the zoom power on your scope.

There's nothing to stop you from chronographing your rounds and developing a table with a FFP, regular subtension reticle (millirad or MoA) scope. In fact that is standard practice. But once you have done that, your scope clicks directly match your reticle marks. Unlike some esoteric function with a SFP BDC, where the number of clicks gives a variable elevation change in your scope reticle, which doesn't have even subtensions to further complicate things.

Like I said, BDC is fine for hunting at moderate range and fine for offhand, where you wobble a bit anyway. For precision, it makes your shooting unnecessarily difficult instead of maths you can do in your head.

Yes, it actually does, all that changes is the ranges you use for the load you're shooting. I can take the scope off my .22LR where my subtensions are at 110m, 125m, 145m, 160m and 170m and put it on my M38 6.5x55mm with 1100fps 95gn VMax, zero it at 100m, then just use different distances - 110m, 130m, 150m, 170m and 195m. Then I can drop in a 2950fps load with the same bullet, adjust the zero based on my logbook telling me where this load shoots at 100m compared to the 95gn 1100fps load (come up 10MoA - no windage variance - to give me a 100m zero), and use distances of 205m, 305m, 400m, 500m, and 580m. I can then put it on my 7mm-08 or my .44Mag and do the same thing.

I don't know what you mean about the reticle "which doesn't have even subtensions" as the reticle certainly does.

[bladeracer]

There's nothing to stop you from chronographing your rounds and developing a table with a FFP, regular subtension reticle (millirad or MoA) scope.

You can, and should, do this with any scope of any design, even a fixed-power, or a non-magnified red dot. Even with a fixed-power scope with a simple non-duplex reticle you can determine the distance that your shots fall halfway down from the reticle to the bottom of the view and use this as a rudimentary BDC - that is basically how the 1800's "buckhorn" rear sights work. Most people can reasonably accurately divide a geometric shape into halves and quarters.

[Biscuits]

I am well acquainted with dialling up and down. In fact I like long range shooting and have had to dial 44 millirad of elevation, or 150 MoA, in order to hit a target. If you are going to dial, why not get a scope where the numbers on the reticle match the numbers on the turret. Being able to get a cold bore first round V-bull on a 600 yard target with a 308 would be SOP for me, which is why I like long range - short/intermediate range is too easy.

Lets say you miss. Lets say you miss when using a FFP scope and you miss by 1.3 millirad. You know it is 1.3 millirad, because you can scale the distance between the aimpoint and the impact point off the reticle. Doesn't matter what zoom power you are on, because the reticle marks scale with the zoom power. You then dial 1.3 millirad on your turret to correct it. You fire again and hit your target.

Now lets do that with a BDC reticle on a SFP scope. Say a 4-16 power SFP with 16x being the reference magnification.You know you have missed and you and you see the point of impact is 1.3 times the distance to the first elevation hash mark with your scope on 9.5x zoom. You tell me instantly how many clicks you need to dial on to correct. You can't. You have to do some convoluted calculation correcting 8.5x magnification to some reference magnification. So you missed by 1.3 x the first hash mark. Converting to 16x power, you multiply 1.3 (your miss reference) x (16/9.5) = 2.18. Then you look up how many clicks from your table takes you from zero to the first elevation hash at 16x. Then you multiply this number by 2.18. Then you dial that. That is the definition of complicated.

Or you can just look at your miss on your FFP scope, see it is 1.3 millirad and dial in 13 of you 0.1mil clicks. Doesn't matter what magnification your scope was at when you fired. Doesn't matter what ammo you were using. It just works, every time.

I'm not looking for an argument and I don't doubt your shooting experience, which is more years than mine, or that you can cludge your way through with a BDC reticle. But why not make your life a lot easier by just buying a scope, where the clicks on the turret match the marks on the reticle?

I do it the same way, without adding the complication you think is required. If I have the zoom dialled back for some reason, I already know what the subtensions are, that is very likely the reason I have the zoom dialled to where it is. But the vast majority of my long-range shooting is at full zoom anyway. So, I can see how many minutes my miss is, regardless of the magnification since I know what the subtensions are at the magnification I'm using, hold or dial to suit, and take a follow-up shot. The only difference I can see is that I have put in many, many hours and tens of thousands of rounds practicing with my scope and discovering _all_ of its capabilities, not just what it says on the box. It's the reason I use the same scope on all my rifles, with the same 223BDC reticle - intimate familiarity with the equipment. I only need to remember five numbers, the same numbers I've used for years now - 1.7, 4.4, 7.6, 11.4, and 15.4. Knowing those numbers I can make any relevant calculations in my head as required. The scope only adjusts in quarter-minutes so I don't need three decimal accuracy. When you're doing every week it becomes second nature.

To do it the way you suggest I would need a different scope for each rifle, and each load. I chose to learn how to use the scope instead, then it works on whatever rifle I'm using and whatever load I'm shooting.

Fair enough, that works. I don’t see that it helps you know your rifle and ammo any better though. I know with my 22LR if I’m shooting 200 metres with my preferred ammo, I need a little over 7 millirad. I know it I do that with a 308 or 6.5, I need 0.6 mil. I know if I use a heavy hunting bullet with the ballistics of a brick, I need about 1 millirad in the same rifle. I have zeroed my 22LR at 50, but I know it also has a near zero at 25 when the bullet is still on an up trajectory.

I have swapped scopes between rifles and that still works. I do have a scope for each rifle, but they are all FFP millirad scopes. You are used to your BDC, I’m used to my millirads. I strongly suspect it my familiarly curve would have been shorter though, with a scope where the turret clicks match the reticle marks. It just makes it easier. You need to match your reticle marks to various distances. I just need to dial in a known number of millirad. Additionally, I normally do not use full zoom. That would make a BDC problematic for me.

[bladeracer]

Using my example above of an observed miss by 1.3 of whatever are your hash marks on your SFP BDC scope at a mid range magnification, explain to me your process of resetting for turrets, within 5 seconds say, without using a pen, calculator or tables. To get a hit at the centre of the crosshairs on the next shot. That would be easy with a FFP scope and millirad reticle. How would you do it with your SFP BDC scope?

If I have the scope set to the graduated magnification (usually full-power but not always) then I can see exactly where 1.3Mil (or 4.5MoA) falls, move the reticle to suit (in this case if it's a short elevation miss I'd hold just below the centre of the second dot, if it's a high or windage miss I'd hold 1.5 times the 3MoA windage stadia), or just dial in 4.5 minutes, and take the shot. If I'm using the scope at half-zoom then I know the reticle is doubled (I'm certainly using the lower zoom because I want to double the stadia) so I can see the shot is 4.5 minutes off (the reticle is doubled in size so the upper and side duplexes are at 6MoA rather than 3MoA, and the dots are at 3.4 and 8.8MoA), thus I'd hold the target a minute below the first dot. It really is not as difficult as you seem to imagine it is.

[Lazarus]

I'm not looking for a fight biscuits, just trying to point out that, much as it might shock you, you don't know what you're taking about.

Leaving aside hand loads, do you seriously believe that every brand of .22lr behaves the same?
There are a multitude of different. 22lr loads on the market, different projectile types of different weights and different BCs, different loadings, speeds and performance.
No two perform the same and being lazy and relying on your scope to do your work doesn't make you a good shooter, in fact it's the opposite.

I'm not basing my comments on what I did "decades ago", I shoot every day. Every day.
Not at the range, in the field, at live targets, at varying ranges and conditions.
I use different types of ammunition depending on the task at hand.

I am not trying to pump up my own tyres, simply trying to impress upon you that there are skill sets available to be developed by those who take the time to learn from those who have been there and done that.

You can scoff if you wish, but arrogance doesn’t make you a better shooter, it just makes you look foolish.

[jwai86]

I'm going off on a tangent here, but is it a good idea to start off with a simple duplex reticle when learning the basics of shooting?

[Lazarus]

I'm going off on a tangent here, but is it a good idea to start off with a simple duplex reticle when learning the basics of shooting?

A duplex is fine, I have several.

As mentioned variously above, the best way to improve your shooting is to develop range notes.

Find your zero, with whatever ammunition, at your chosen zero range, then use different types and brands and experiment.
Develop scope notes by working from that zero point for each ammunition type by observing the impact point of the different ammo and adjusting your scope until impact point meets aim point and record the number of clicks, whether milrad or moa.

That way you will know the difference between say Winchester Power Point HV and Sellier and Bellot Subsonic, etc and be able to simply adjust your scope accordingly when using a given ammo at a given range.

[bladeracer]

Fair enough, that works. I don’t see that it helps you know your rifle and ammo any better though. I know with my 22LR if I’m shooting 200 metres with my preferred ammo, I need a little over 7 millirad. I know it I do that with a 308 or 6.5, I need 0.6 mil. I know if I use a heavy hunting bullet with the ballistics of a brick, I need about 1 millirad in the same rifle. I have zeroed my 22LR at 50, but I know it also has a near zero at 25 when the bullet is still on an up trajectory.

I have swapped scopes between rifles and that still works. I do have a scope for each rifle, but they are all FFP millirad scopes. You are used to your BDC, I’m used to my millirads. I strongly suspect it my familiarly curve would have been shorter though, with a scope where the turret clicks match the reticle marks. It just makes it easier. You need to match your reticle marks to various distances. I just need to dial in a known number of millirad. Additionally, I normally do not use full zoom. That would make a BDC problematic for me.

I suspect you are shooting at targets at fixed distances rather than at random distances in the field?
You are trying to tie your fixed reticle to fixed distances instead of using an adjustable reticle to suit random distances.

I have absolutely zero interest in knowing where my bullet hits at 200m, 300m, 400m, 500m, 600m or any other predetermined distance. I shoot at random distances, all I want to know is the distances that my bullets meet my stadia holdovers. Then I can guesstimate or lase my target and adjust my hold to suit.

For example with the 6.5x55mm with the high-velocity 95gn (not my choice for long-range but I've already used it as an example) I estimate or lase a target at 425m. I know the third dot is at 400m, and the fourth dot is at 500m, and I know that the third dot is 7.6MoA and the fourth is 11.4MoA, so every 25m is roughly going to drop another minute below the third dot. In this example 425m is a quarter of the difference between the two so I hold accordingly - one minute below the third dot. With long-range loads I would zero out around the 250m to 275m range. The 147gn ELDM for example zeros at 250m. From 50m out to 150m it's between 2.5MoA and 3.5MoA high so I can hold on the top duplex (a 3 minute low hold). Then the dots are at 310m, 395m, 480m, 580m, and 680m on the bottom duplex, very simple to remember.

Why do you prefer not to use maximum magnification? It can help to dial it back when you have heavy mirage, and it can be useful to dial back to optimal exit pupil in poor light, otherwise I want the best possible view of my target and my impacts.

[bladeracer]

I'm going off on a tangent here, but is it a good idea to start off with a simple duplex reticle when learning the basics of shooting?

I would say no, unless you are only shooting at a range at the same distance all the time. If you are only practicing the muscle memory side of shooting it would be fine, I have several myself. But once you start transferring your shooting skill across to the field, where every shot is different, then the reticle can really give you a lot more information to work with. When I started shooting I used iron sights, and very occasionally used aperture sights. After four years of shooting with iron sights I managed to afford some basic four-power scopes with duplex reticles, and they were amazing. There's no reason you couldn't spend a lifetime shooting with a four-power duplex scope, or just use iron sights. But scopes are so cheap and so reliable nowadays that it makes sense to use them if you can, they simply make it easier to shoot well.

The duplex reticle is a rudimentary BDC, the top of the duplex post will be a specific distance from the centre, probably around five or six minutes. On a .22LR if you zero at 50m the top of the duplex will probably be around the 75m mark. You can use that distance to help you hold more precisely within that region.