First rifle for new shooter - .17 WMR? 22 Mag?

[in2anity]

Yeah - Realised I didn't put the rifle in the pics.

My mum use to make the best rabbit stew when I was kid. I just need to do some research on ensuring I know what I am looking for before I cook them up.

We have hundreds here, so not sure the supply is going to dry up anytime soon!

I some research and blogged this subject a while back: https://hoffos.wordpress.com/2017/02/15 ... australia/

[JohnBoy]

Thanks for that! Good info.

Cheers
JB

[Stix]

I some research and blogged this subject a while back: https://hoffos.wordpress.com/2017/02/15 ... australia/

So did you put this together in2...?

[in2anity]

I some research and blogged this subject a while back: https://hoffos.wordpress.com/2017/02/15 ... australia/

So did you put this together in2...?

Yep sure did

[Stix]

Im keen to know more about your research mate...
Im keen to see, example pics & detailed descriptions of signs of clear signs of the calici virus...
Ive not been able to find much that more conclusive than "its hard to tell early signs of infection"...

Id like to quiz you more but dont want to hijack JohnBoy's thread...

And with all due respect, your blog just asks moral & thought provoking questions, rather than give the answers...

[bladeracer]

Im keen to know more about your research mate...
Im keen to see, example pics & detailed descriptions of signs of clear signs of the calici virus...
Ive not been able to find much that more conclusive than "its hard to tell early signs of infection"...

Id like to quiz you more but dont want to hijack JohnBoy's thread...

And with all due respect, your blog just asks moral & thought provoking questions, rather than give the answers...

We lost four of our meat breeders to calici last year, one of them to an unknown strain (Rose sent tissue samples in for testing). One of them died in my arms. We've found wild rabbits with similar symptoms.
They often get a snotty nose and a bit of a sneazy-cough, and then within a day or two they just fall over, start fitting, and stop breathing. By the time you start seeing early signs they're probably already past recovery.

We'd rather try to breed them through the calici virus than pump them full of vaccines. We lost the last two litters, nineteen all dead within the first day. We can't determine if it's related to calici though and the parents have been fine throughout. Next litter isn't far off so we'll see if we lose them again.

[in2anity]

And with all due respect, your blog just asks moral & thought provoking questions, rather than give the answers...

Besides the first paragraph did you actually read any of it? Before flaming Stix, go back and have a second look; all but the very first paragraph is information pulled straight out of white papers? LITERALLY 90% OF IT IS STRAIGHT FACTS, ZERO ANECDOTES. I'm so confused... Please, do me a favour and read the entire article (it's not long). Then you may find the answers that you seek.

Anyway this is not the place to be critiquing someone's blog; sorry OP didn't mean to hijack, I was just trying to point Johnboy in a direction (who wanted to know a bit more about eating rabbits)...

[JohnBoy]

All good Stix. I read the your blog and it was good info for me. Have been doing a bit more reading etc, and so any info is good info right!

Cheers
JB

[Stix]

And with all due respect, your blog just asks moral & thought provoking questions, rather than give the answers...

Besides the first paragraph did you actually read any of it? Before flaming Stix, go back and have a second look; all but the very first paragraph is information pulled straight out of white papers? LITERALLY 90% OF IT IS STRAIGHT FACTS, ZERO ANECDOTES. I'm so confused... Please, do me a favour and read the entire article (it's not long). Then you may find the answers that you seek.

Anyway this is not the place to be critiquing someone's blog; sorry OP didn't mean to hijack, I was just trying to point Johnboy in a direction (who wanted to know a bit more about eating rabbits)...

Hey in2anity...mate maybe ive come across the wrong way, & if so i can assure you that insulting your efforts was not my intention mate...
I have read the entire thing 3 times before i posted above, so its too late for me to read it a second time as you suggest.
And your reply poses a rhitorical question for me, that being if 90% of the information is straight fact, what is the other 10%...?... (as i said, thats a rhitorical question)...

Im not being (dont mean to be) critical at all, infact i admire & applaud what you've done, im just after more indepth info...more specifically related to very early visible signs of calici virus...
So before accusing me of "flaming", maybe give consideration to making an effort to confirming if thats what im actually doing...

So--calici virus diagnosis--Sure, check out the organs, thats an obvious given, but if one is super dilligent, then one would never eat wild rabbit...(& if i were to be critical, it could be said that is the summary of your blog).

Whilst ive not searched absolutely exhaustively, i cannot find any more detailed info than what you have stated, & yet im sure its out there somewhere...

Maybe you can a answer for me if the following bunnies specifically have calici virus...(i dont expect you to have a doctorate in biology, but maybe/hopefully in your research you have seen & learned of the finer visual signs of early infection).

These are (were) seemingly perfectly healthy bunnies when picked up--nothing apparently wrong with fur, weight, eyes etc (that is from my nearly 40 yrs experience of shooting & dressing them out)...

This first pic--clean head shot bunny-pic taken 10 hrs after its passing...

Rabbit #1

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This next bunny had its head removed from a 204 & has a shrapnel wound down the inside of neck that exited through shoulder...

Rabbit#2 head shot.

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Rabbit#2 shrapnel exit

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Rabbit#2 shrapnel damage under front leg

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This next bunny also had its head removed by the 204..

Healthy headshot bunny#3

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Healthy head shot bunny #3

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Im keen to hear your thoughts on what you can see, & if any of your diagnosis is calici virus related...
Cheers

[bigrich]

hey fellas, i bin told just stick your dressed wabbit in the freezer for at least seven days and it kills any viruses or parasites.so long as their eyes look healthy it's all good. i'm not tech savy, so don't know how to post it, but check out a rabbit recipe "tuscan rabbit with pancetta and rosemary" on a site called , delicious.com.au . i used a full glass of wine and a handfull of mushrooms as well with two rabbits in a roast tray and covered with alfoil to keep the moisture in while in the oven. turned out freakin' awsome. cheers and good eating JB

[Stix]

Sorry i missed yr post earlier blade...

Do you breed europeans...? Or have you purchased breeding stock...?

An unknown strain you say--thats a worry...
Is the place you sent samples to in the loop of ALL strains released...?
(If so, then its feasible to assume that the virus is already mutating beyond what is trackable)...

Snotty nose & sneazy cough are a little hard to diagnose through a scope at 120 + yds...
(I do however often see them fall over & go into a fit but its always due to bullet placement... )

Im keen to know how the next litter goes...
& also if you notice anything different about the dressed out meat of the infected ones.

It would be interesting to harvest/dressout infected rabbits at different stages of infection to see ALL visible signs on dressed carcasses...thats what scientists would have done, but finding pictorial evidence seems hard...!!

[bladeracer]

Sorry i missed yr post earlier blade...

Do you breed europeans...? Or have you purchased breeding stock...?

An unknown strain you say--thats a worry...
Is the place you sent samples to in the loop of ALL strains released...?
(If so, then its feasible to assume that the virus is already mutating beyond what is trackable)...

Snotty nose & sneazy cough are a little hard to diagnose through a scope at 120 + yds...
(I do however often see them fall over & go into a fit but its always due to bullet placement... )

Im keen to know how the next litter goes...
& also if you notice anything different about the dressed out meat of the infected ones.

It would be interesting to harvest/dressout infected rabbits at different stages of infection to see ALL visible signs on dressed carcasses...thats what scientists would have done, but finding pictorial evidence seems hard...!!

Not European rabbits, think they might be from NZ originally but we bought them locally.
Significantly larger animals than any wild rabbits I've seen.

I'd have to check with Rose on where she sends samples to, but they know a lot about the calici viruses.
The last one they initially came back with a verdict of "not calici", but a few weeks later contacted Rose again to say that it was calici, but not a recognised strain.

The dead rabbit would likely have a very wet nose and face, but calici is very fast so the chances of shooting one between it being infected and when it dies reduces the likelyhood of coming across them I think. We have found some wild rabbits very close to death, but generally we find them after they've expired.

We're hopeful as well. Starting to worry that perhaps the mother has been infected in such a way that she is unaffected but making babies not viable. They are live-born, and are fully-formed, but all die within a few hours. It could be related to removal of the mother's blood supply.

Rose sends liver slices in for testing but we haven't seen any obvious abnormalities.

When I was a kid in SA we had a lot of myxo, it was very common, but we also had thousands of rabbits so we didn't need to eat any that showed signs of infection.

[JohnBoy]

OK... For those still following on how the CZ 455 combo is going, I did some shooting today.

So I dialled in the 22 and scope and am happy with accuracy.

This is a grouping of 22 Subs at 60m.

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Then I switched the barrel for the 17HMR and fired two shots. I can't fire it much here as I will just annoy the crap out of neighbouring properties as it's LOUD as buggery. Anyways... You will see the 2 17 shots a little high. Which I suspected would be the case. Then swapped the barrel back to the 22 and took two more shots from a kneeling position and can't complain. All done at 60m.

17 and 22 Subs.jpg (80.41 KiB) Viewed 5793 times

When I get to my mates property, I will work out how many clicks I need on the scope to bring the 17 down.

One thing I will say though - Swapping the barrels takes about 2 minutes and is easy as!

Cheers
JB

[bigrich]

that's pretty good JB , point of aim hasn't changed that much at all. going from full power 22mag to 22mag subs the point of aim changed alot. the 22lr subs sound like the go for your situation mate. if noise is an issue maybe a air rifle or crossbow/compound bow might be worth considering. did bowhunting when i was young. VERY challenging.

[Stix]

Still following JBoy...!!!
Well done (i think...not sure how big the squares on target are...im guessing half inch).

Keep plugging away mate & dont get too hung up on tight groups yet...
As i said earlier, my only experience of late with a new 452 in .22lr was some 500 rnds before it settled down.
When it was 'breaking in' it didnt like win sub hp's--it would shift poi regularly--as in almost every second group...& i missed many random bunnies between 10yds to 30yds...

But now its settled, ive not missed a headshot & it loves the win subs...!

Apologies for the apparent hijack, if i knew how to copy-n-paste on this not-very-smart-at-all smart phone id be happy to take the other talk to a new thread...

[JohnBoy]

Ahaahah all good man! Hijack away!

The white of the squares are 20mm. So I am pretty happy. Loving this gun, and yep, the subs will be the way to go. They have already proved successful for me - so all good.

Well - Anyways... I am glad I did a bit of research on this baby - I just now need to find someone close to me that would maybe allow me to join in on a shoot or two!

I am in the Yass region by the way.

Cheers
JB

[sungazer]

Your avatar is that a picture of you? or a picture of Raj from the Big Bang Theory?

[Stix]

So if anyones interested...im keen to hear peoples thoughts on my observations of those pics...

So those pics again...

First, the shrapnel wound to the shoulder...

Varicose veins/burst vessels under skin...?

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I expect some clotting around the wound, but those marks in the blue circles are not common on a clean bunny...

Clots...

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Also this one...one big & a few small clots in chest cavity...bunny was clean headshot & its rare to have such a "wet" (as in looks like small amounts of blood) & clots in chest cavity...can also see pink liquid/blood on lungs & through chest cavity...
I wonder if these are all signs of the virus, because i found these clots & liquid all exccessive to what i normally find...

Clots in chest cavity & on surface of kidneys...

2018-03-02 13.32.33.jpg (1.13 MiB) Viewed 5653 times

The other pics in other post the liver is very light in colour...unfortunately the 2 bunnies that had mixi the got mixed up... (hehe)...so this could be one of em...

So...to eat or not to eat...? (The light liver one is dog food for a mates dog...)

[bigrich]

well stix, my wabbits from tenterfeild had unmarked livers with no marks like that and those "welts" on the meat do look sus to me. hmmm, a week in the freezer would kill any parasites or virus i bin told. maybe a good long cook as a stew just to be safe ? have heard the wabbit virus can make you sick but if it's been frozen and cooked properly the virus would be dead right ? you try it old mate and if you don't drop dead or turn into a were-rabbit we'll know it's alright

[in2anity]

well stix, my wabbits from tenterfeild had unmarked livers with no marks like that and those "welts" on the meat do look sus to me. hmmm, a week in the freezer would kill any parasites or virus i bin told. maybe a good long cook as a stew just to be safe ? have heard the wabbit virus can make you sick but if it's been frozen and cooked properly the virus would be dead right ? you try it old mate and if you don't drop dead or turn into a were-rabbit we'll know it's alright

FWIW sorry but I don't agree that the freezer kills parasites or viruses - this is anecdotal. Heat kills parasites and bacteria, but not cold. It's a fact that Tularemia can actually live for years in you freezer. With regard to viruses, humans can't contract rabbit viruses because our genetic makeup is fundamentally different to a rabbit.

[bigrich]

yeh in2anity ya probably right. i did say "whut i bin told..." not saying it's correct info. a good long slow cook stew might be the right medicine.after stix pointed it out, that didn't look like a healthy rabbit. still, i reckon stix should be the guinea pig to see if he turns into a were-rabbit !

[sungazer]

Those smaller dark patches around the muscle area I think are nothing to worry about. All the cows I have had slaughtered and seen have similar not quite bruising marks but similar.

[in2anity]

Try bleeding the rabbit as soon as possible after a kill by cutting its jugular and hanging it up - those spots may just be clotted blood in the organs. Older rabbits often have liver scarring which make it harder to tell whether the animal is diseased - this is why it is generallly better to try and eater younger rabbits (with nice healthy organs) - basically less variables. Kidneys take a hammering in dry times also - they should be nice and glossy without any pitting or malformations. Another reason to eat young game.

[Stix]

Yes in2 young is the go...but beyond 100+ish yards under spotlight starts to get hard to pick age...immature faces are just the same shape as old ones out there mate...
As for bleeding, these are bled with 204--& i dare NOT put those pics up again tonight...
Carried back to the car head down, given a little flicky shake & layed in the back of car with head sloping down--the same as normal & i dont usually get these results...
Personally i get the feeling they may be infected...
The clotting seems excessive and usually dont get those marks all over carcass...
Maybe they're not infected & the mixi infected ones playing on my mind...