Ricochet concerns when shooting against rocky areas

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Ricochet concerns when shooting against rocky areas

Post by xDom » 21 Jun 2019, 9:00 pm

This topic has been mentioned before. I did some searching through old threads but couldn't really see what I was after.

How much attention do you pay to a possible ricochet before taking a shot.?


I've heard the lighter faster rounds are more likely to crumble and the shallower an angle the more likely it is to ricochet off at the opposing shallow angle.


I've also heard that a team of scientists wouldn't be capable of working out where the bullet is gonna go.


Specifically, a .223 from 100-150 yds shooting into a heavily rocky area in an otherwise empty paddock, do I need to be concerned?
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by Chappo » 21 Jun 2019, 9:37 pm

Concerned? No, but stranger things have happened.
I’d be more concerned of it lighting a fire in summer.
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by on_one_wheel » 21 Jun 2019, 10:02 pm

This is precisely why you should identify your target and what's behind it, even off in the distance.

Ricochet genneraly bounces off and continues in the same genneral direction as the projectilewas fired and can retain heaps of energy so it's definitely worth being concerned about.
But it's exact path is obviously dictated by a few variables.

The most amountof ricochet I generally get is in Sandy country when the projectile strikes the sand at a low angle. 55 grain .223 & 100 grain .234 can be heared flying at warp speed WAY off into the distance.

The .22 LR gets a few ricochets in the rocky country. You certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one. They'll fly for a couple hundred meters easy and can be heared making a spectacular twang sound.

Your .223 in rocky country should be pretty safe. You'll be unlucky to have a serious ricochet. Genneraly if you do there'll be only fragments left to fly once it's smacked a rock.

Using an animals head or chest as a backstop will generally prevent 99% of ricochet. :thumbsup:
Last edited by on_one_wheel on 21 Jun 2019, 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by Blr243 » 21 Jun 2019, 10:03 pm

Regardless of the likelihood of it happening and causing an issue , it’s good to see some care going into your thoughts instead of just not even bothering about it .....I was useing a 243 with 87 v max which I had always hoped would blow up ....but soon I’ll b useing a 450 bushmaster with 300 grains at sub sonic speeds so then I will be taking more care so that bullet doesn’t bounce off somewhere else
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by bladeracer » 22 Jun 2019, 6:20 am

xDom wrote:This topic has been mentioned before. I did some searching through old threads but couldn't really see what I was after.

How much attention do you pay to a possible ricochet before taking a shot.?


I've heard the lighter faster rounds are more likely to crumble and the shallower an angle the more likely it is to ricochet off at the opposing shallow angle.


I've also heard that a team of scientists wouldn't be capable of working out where the bullet is gonna go.


Specifically, a .223 from 100-150 yds shooting into a heavily rocky area in an otherwise empty paddock, do I need to be concerned?


I always consider where a ricochet might go, even from flat dirt.
The higher the velocity the more the bullet is deformed on impact.
The shallower the angle the less velocity is burned up in changing the bullet's direction.
The angle is pretty much random from anything other than a hard flat surface, like armour plate. Even mild steel with bullet craters in it makes direction random, that's why gongs are armour plate, to maintain a flat surface.
One rule that is inviolate though is that it will never ricochet further than it can travel unimpeded, bouncing off stuff robs the bullet of velocity, and deforms it making it unstable. When you hear a ricochet that is indicative of a heavily deformed bullet passing through air at speed. An undeformed bullet is virtually silent.

With a high-velocity rifle it is extremely likely that you are not shooting within several hundred meters of anything you wouldn't risk killing or damaging so it's probably you, the shooter, that is most at risk from a ricochet.
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by trekin » 22 Jun 2019, 7:32 am

Wasn't he an Irish sniper?
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by bladeracer » 22 Jun 2019, 8:42 am

trekin wrote:Wasn't he an Irish sniper?


Awesome!
I needed a good giggle to warm me up :-)
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by RoginaJack » 22 Jun 2019, 11:47 am

A 22lr would be the worst offender.
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by marksman » 22 Jun 2019, 12:27 pm

a few years ago after the so called ricochet incident at little river range they had an information night where they had as one of the speakers a member of the little river military rifle club who was an ex army guy who had a job in the army trying to figure out how to control ricochet's on tanks ect, where they want the projectiles to ricochet off the tanks ect, he was full of information and knew what he was on about
his advice was that you cannot control a ricochet, he was talking about steel targets at certain angles or swinging targets that are used at cowboy club shoots for an example tilted downward so that the ricochet would be forced into the ground, this IMHO is true as if you ever go to a cowboy shoot you will see ricochet's still happen straight back at the shooter or crowd, in regards to swinging targets the ricochet has already happened before the target swings, after he had finished and left the club's operations manager at that time's exact words were "disregard everything you have just heard" I think because he did not want the sub clubs to be affected by the steel target bans they put on the public at their main range at 200
I found that after seeing ricochets from centerfire rifles shooting tracer bullets that there is no pattern the ricochets go in every direction including back at you
you cannot control a ricochet but you can have distance between you and a ricochet that's what needs to be considered, I believe a bit more than 100
the rounds mainly responsible for ricochets are slow eg 22 rimfire, pistol rounds, shotgun slugs, full metal jacket ect

you can still shoot in an bad area for ricochets with frangible bullets that fragmentate on impact or do not exit the animal when shot
but yes it is something that needs considered :thumbsup:
Last edited by marksman on 22 Jun 2019, 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by bladeracer » 22 Jun 2019, 12:31 pm

RoginaJack wrote:A 22lr would be the worst offender.


Not the worst due the lack of bullet mass, but between lost velocity and bullet deformation, any .22LR ricochet is not likely to go very far at all, and have little energy left when it lands.
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Post by xDom » 22 Jun 2019, 1:01 pm

".. but you can have distance between you and a ricochet that's what needs to be considered"


So the idea of putting down an injured animal at point blank or near on point blank is to be very carefully considered?
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by marksman » 22 Jun 2019, 2:13 pm

it depends on the situation, you need to make the call at that time
I have had really big alpha roos that I could not get near to cut their throat or hit with a hammer to the head so have had to shoot again
but in a direction that will be as safe as can be in that situation at that time, I dont usually shoot the animal again anyway
with a good brain shot you have no need :lol: :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Jun 2019, 3:28 pm

Have a look at some of the military night shoots with tracers on you tube - it’s cray how/where/speed of some ricochets and being tracer against night sky - you see flight times...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dq4xnRGZMOI
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by bladeracer » 23 Jun 2019, 11:08 am

xDom wrote:".. but you can have distance between you and a ricochet that's what needs to be considered"


So the idea of putting down an injured animal at point blank or near on point blank is to be very carefully considered?


I would say no more than any other shot at live game. For a start, you have the carcass between yourself and any bullet that's coming back toward you.

Full-power high-velocity rifles at contact ranges are not much fun for the shooter (I shot a hare once that leaped out of the grass virtually onto the muzzle of my .222Rem, that made a hell of a mess). Often at such short ranges the velocity is high enough to destroy the bullet leaving little left to ricochet. And subsonic bullets tend to burn up much of their energy going through the target. Personally, I always keep some reduced loads in my pocket for exactly that situation. It's also why they make chamber inserts for shotguns, so you can use a low-velocity pistol cartridge for finishing game instead of a point-blank 12ga. load. You can get or make inserts for lots of rifle cartridges as well, but as they still use the fully-rifled barrel they tend be more accurate and higher-velocity than the simple shotgun inserts. .32ACP is a common one I think for .30-cal rifles. Basically the same as simply using reduced loads.
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by RoginaJack » 23 Jun 2019, 11:29 am

bladeracer wrote:
RoginaJack wrote:A 22lr would be the worst offender.


Not the worst due the lack of bullet mass, but between lost velocity and bullet deformation, any .22LR ricochet is not likely to go very far at all, and have little energy left when it lands.



Take your word for the "lack of bullet mass" as I'm not keen to stand around and test your theory.

On old boxes of 22 ammo, along with a target, the warning was the 22 had a range of 1.5 miles.
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by bigfellascott » 23 Jun 2019, 12:19 pm

I personally wouldn't be overly concerned with ricochets as such, not with lightly constructed projectiles that tend to splatter a lot on impact, anyway I don't reckon a projectile that's badly deformed will travel any great distance as it's aerodynamics have been badly compromised.
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by bladeracer » 23 Jun 2019, 12:42 pm

RoginaJack wrote:Take your word for the "lack of bullet mass" as I'm not keen to stand around and test your theory.

On old boxes of 22 ammo, along with a target, the warning was the 22 had a range of 1.5 miles.


Yes, for a bullet fired into the sky at the optimum angle at full power with perfect BC, although I think it was still way over-stated. Take away the velocity lost from bouncing off something, even more if the bullet went through something first, the extra drag of a deformed bullet, and the fact that you probably didn't aim it into the sky.

A quick calculation with the CCI Std Velocity fired at 25-degrees into the sky gives it a maximum possible range of 1100 meters (where the bullet lands at a similar altitude as it was fired from). As most field shooting is far more likely to be within a few degrees of horizontal, or downhill, even if the bullet misses everything, it's still going to fall to the ground within a few hundred meters. And, CCI SV won't penetrate a corrugated steel shed past about 600m even at full-power.
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by bigfellascott » 23 Jun 2019, 3:33 pm

bladeracer wrote:
RoginaJack wrote:Take your word for the "lack of bullet mass" as I'm not keen to stand around and test your theory.

On old boxes of 22 ammo, along with a target, the warning was the 22 had a range of 1.5 miles.


Yes, for a bullet fired into the sky at the optimum angle at full power with perfect BC, although I think it was still way over-stated. Take away the velocity lost from bouncing off something, even more if the bullet went through something first, the extra drag of a deformed bullet, and the fact that you probably didn't aim it into the sky.

A quick calculation with the CCI Std Velocity fired at 25-degrees into the sky gives it a maximum possible range of 1100 meters (where the bullet lands at a similar altitude as it was fired from). As most field shooting is far more likely to be within a few degrees of horizontal, or downhill, even if the bullet misses everything, it's still going to fall to the ground within a few hundred meters. And, CCI SV won't penetrate a corrugated steel shed past about 600m even at full-power.


Exactly! :thumbsup: those warnings are for a perfectly formed projectile shot at an exact angle with perfect conditions etc etc, a ricocheted projectile is far from that!
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by bladeracer » 23 Jun 2019, 5:00 pm

bigfellascott wrote:Exactly! :thumbsup: those warnings are for a perfectly formed projectile shot at an exact angle with perfect conditions etc etc, a ricocheted projectile is far from that!


I should've added that at the end of that perfect launch, the bullet is coming into the ground at about 60-degrees, making single-digit energy ft-lbs, and doing less than 300fps.
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by marksman » 23 Jun 2019, 9:23 pm

I should add that a ricochete apparently ricochets off faster than the bullet leaving the barrel
so I have been led to believe :drinks:
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by bladeracer » 23 Jun 2019, 9:30 pm

marksman wrote:I should add that a ricochete apparently ricochets off faster than the bullet leaving the barrel
so I have been led to believe :drinks:


I'd love to see how they came up with that :-)
So I fire a bullet at 1080fps, and 600m down the track, when it's down to about 500fps, it bounces off a rock at more than double that speed?
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by Stix » 23 Jun 2019, 10:01 pm

marksman wrote:I should add that a ricochete apparently ricochets off faster than the bullet leaving the barrel
so I have been led to believe :drinks:


:lol:
Hmm...that goes against everything we're told in regards to the laws of physics...

If its true, the guys who came up with this should have the answer to perpetual motion...

AND...we'd be shooting long range bunnies with deflector shields 50 yds in front of the barrel to increase velocity down range...

Hell...imagine a series of carefully placed "ricochet panels" placed all around the world so the bullet travels from one to another increasing in velocity with each deflection--a bullet could get to near light speed doing loops of the earth... :lol:

Thats probably why Hdy released their 'non-melting tips... :thumbsup:

Imagine a 177 springer flinging lead at mach 679 after a few deflections... :lol:

Hadron Collider eat your heart out.... 8-)

Better wear helmets or duck... :lol:

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Re: Ricochet.

Post by bigfellascott » 23 Jun 2019, 11:08 pm

marksman wrote:I should add that a ricochete apparently ricochets off faster than the bullet leaving the barrel
so I have been led to believe :drinks:


Don't recall noticing that with tracers at night, hard to say though, most of em went sideways or up from memory, well they really went everywhere TBH. :drinks:
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by marksman » 24 Jun 2019, 8:05 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:
its being taught at the firearm safety courses :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by TassieTiger » 24 Jun 2019, 10:07 am

bladeracer wrote:
marksman wrote:I should add that a ricochete apparently ricochets off faster than the bullet leaving the barrel
so I have been led to believe :drinks:


I'd love to see how they came up with that :-)
So I fire a bullet at 1080fps, and 600m down the track, when it's down to about 500fps, it bounces off a rock at more than double that speed?


The same physics say that a bullet rises after it leaves the barrel...
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by bladeracer » 25 Jun 2019, 9:00 am

marksman wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:
its being taught at the firearm safety courses :lol: :lol: :lol:
:drinks:


I was impressed with the general lack of understanding of the instructors when I did the course.
One guy was talking about using the wrong ammunition, "What would you expect if you accidentally chamber a .270 in a .30-06?"
"A fire-formed .30-06 case?" was my response, he really had no idea what would happen, but just assumed it would be bad.
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by marksman » 25 Jun 2019, 6:30 pm

bladeracer wrote:
marksman wrote::lol: :lol: :lol:
its being taught at the firearm safety courses :lol: :lol: :lol:
:drinks:


I was impressed with the general lack of understanding of the instructors when I did the course.
One guy was talking about using the wrong ammunition, "What would you expect if you accidentally chamber a .270 in a .30-06?"
"A fire-formed .30-06 case?" was my response, he really had no idea what would happen, but just assumed it would be bad.


yep I've heard similar myself :roll: :lol:
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by xDom » 26 Jun 2019, 7:54 pm

“..The same physics say that a bullet rises after it leaves the barrel...”


What’s the story with this comment? I’ve heard it before.
I heard that if a .223 is fired horizontally, at 25m and 200m it’ll be at the same height.
Is this right?
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by bladeracer » 26 Jun 2019, 8:04 pm

xDom wrote:“..The same physics say that a bullet rises after it leaves the barrel...”


What’s the story with this comment? I’ve heard it before.
I heard that if a .223 is fired horizontally, at 25m and 200m it’ll be at the same height.
Is this right?


Not quite, the story is if you zero an AR15 at 25yd it will also be zeroed at 300yd, nothing to do with anything being horizontal. The bullet travels several inches high en-route.
If you set up any firearm with the bore horizontal, the bullet will begin dropping the instant it leaves the muzzle.
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Re: Ricochet.

Post by TassieTiger » 26 Jun 2019, 8:33 pm

No matter what caliber - it cannot beat gravity.
If you zero a 223 at say 300m - the projectile will be passing up through the line of sight in close proximity to the muzzle, and then “fall” back on to target at 300m. If you were sighted for 300 and then came in and shot a target at say 100 or 150m, the bullet would be high on the target, but not because it’s rinsing if it’s own accord, but because the barrel is angled that way.

I’ve had so many ppl try and tell me that some calibers, rise 1 and even 2 inches after leaving the muzzle...
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