Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by SCJ429 » 01 Aug 2019, 8:17 pm

What sort of damage did you do with the rounds that hit the heart and lungs? Did you open her up and have a look?

Was she just standing there after the first hit or was she running?

I have used a 22/250 a bit myself and anytime I have hit the heart, with 55 grain Vmax, the animal has not moved off more than half a dozen metres.
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by Die Judicii » 01 Aug 2019, 10:50 pm

SCJ429 wrote:What sort of damage did you do with the rounds that hit the heart and lungs? Did you open her up and have a look?

Was she just standing there after the first hit or was she running?

I have used a 22/250 a bit myself and anytime I have hit the heart, with 55 grain Vmax, the animal has not moved off more than half a dozen metres.


I'll give her this much,,, she was tough.
1st shot put her on her front knees,
Then she got up and started running.
2nd shot she fell over sideways, and then got up again and staggered about 10 metres.
3rd shot put her down and gave some frantic thrashing sideways.

I didn't open her up, but I doubt there was anything except mush in the chest cavity.
I think she blew most of the bits of lung/heart out her nostrils, cos when i went to inspect, there was a massive pool of frothy blood and pieces of meat on the ground at the end of her snout.

I had a similar experience many years back when I shot a boar up in the mountains in NSW.
I hit him at full gallop at a distance (paced out) of just on 300 metres with a .303 psp
Got him in the boiler room, and he ran another 150 metres before going down.
He musta been running on pure adrenalin, cos we opened him up, and mostly mush just flowed out of the chest.

He had been eating clover that was growing in a thick patch where water drained down off the edge of a bitumin road.
When we rolled him over, he still had a gob full of clover.
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by TassieTiger » 02 Aug 2019, 12:49 am

I’m not offay with pig hunting - no one has the balls to release em in Tassie - lol.
But I hear and read a lot of different stories about some pigs falling to a Shanghai and a river pebble and others that swallow a 338 and spit it back at you...has me thinking left of field.

Is it possible that wild pigs (not unlike their farmed cousins) have hard / soft areas on their hides - like really hard. We had a farmed pig once that slept continuously in the exact same place and on the exact same side - when time came to harvest her, the side she slept on was insanely difficult to skin, like benchmade knife really, really struggled - whilst the other side was easy...I think a bullet impact would have had vastly different results depending on which side bore the impact. Just a thought.
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by bigrich » 02 Aug 2019, 5:54 am

TassieTiger wrote:I’m not offay with pig hunting - no one has the balls to release em in Tassie - lol.
But I hear and read a lot of different stories about some pigs falling to a Shanghai and a river pebble and others that swallow a 338 and spit it back at you...has me thinking left of field.

Is it possible that wild pigs (not unlike their farmed cousins) have hard / soft areas on their hides - like really hard. We had a farmed pig once that slept continuously in the exact same place and on the exact same side - when time came to harvest her, the side she slept on was insanely difficult to skin, like benchmade knife really, really struggled - whilst the other side was easy...I think a bullet impact would have had vastly different results depending on which side bore the impact. Just a thought.


boar shoulder sheilds are a genetic thing , but i guess it's plausable that the skin would be tougher on hard used areas just like calloused hands from lots of manual labor in a human . russian boar in europe are supposedly very tuff cause they fight each other with their tusks and develope thick tuff sheilds . that would explain why some europeans like to use 9.3x62 for boar ;) nathan foster in NZ likes to use a 35 whelen for pigs , just saying ..... :P

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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by Oldbloke » 02 Aug 2019, 8:36 am

Seems to me if the OP wants 1 gun then 243 is the go. Other wise 223 & 308.
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by GQshayne » 02 Aug 2019, 8:54 pm

TassieTiger wrote:I’m not offay with pig hunting - no one has the balls to release em in Tassie - lol.
But I hear and read a lot of different stories about some pigs falling to a Shanghai and a river pebble and others that swallow a 338 and spit it back at you...has me thinking left of field.

Is it possible that wild pigs (not unlike their farmed cousins) have hard / soft areas on their hides - like really hard. We had a farmed pig once that slept continuously in the exact same place and on the exact same side - when time came to harvest her, the side she slept on was insanely difficult to skin, like benchmade knife really, really struggled - whilst the other side was easy...I think a bullet impact would have had vastly different results depending on which side bore the impact. Just a thought.


Some pigs do have a tough shoulder plate for sure. You can also happen to be taking on a pig that has been wallowing in the mud, and have a dried crust half an inch thick on your target spot. They are also pretty tough, especially when the adrenalin is going. Hit them in the wrong spot, even with 30 cal stuff and you can expect to get a poor result.
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by SCJ429 » 02 Aug 2019, 9:47 pm

I hit a mud encrusted pig with a 400 grain Woodleigh Weldcore and got a good result. Thank you Mr Rigby.

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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by bigfellascott » 03 Aug 2019, 7:33 am

I needed the 308 yesterday, I went out to cut wood and ran into a mob of pigs and fallow deer all within 30sec of each other :lol:

I said to my mate I really should bring the 308 when we come out here now, I've seen 2 different herds of fallow deer in the last 3 trips out there. :silent:
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by bigrich » 03 Aug 2019, 10:12 am

Oldbloke wrote:Seems to me if the OP wants 1 gun then 243 is the go. Other wise 223 & 308.


My sentiments exactly OB . If the op gets into reloading, the 243 can shoot 85 gn and lighter projectiles very flat out past 300 m for dogs, goats , foxes and such . According to chuck hawks ballistic chart , the 243 is in the same class for being a flat shooting as 270 win and 25-06 while using less powder. For this type of general purpose use it’s now one of my favourite calibers . JMHO :thumbsup:
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by RoginaJack » 03 Aug 2019, 10:27 am

Actually, I've reckon the .243w is very much underrated for Austalian conditions.

Having said that, I've shot more pigs with the Ol' 303 (7.7mm) SMLE, heavy barrel and iron sights than any other rifle. It just does the job all the time,
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by ScottyD » 03 Aug 2019, 1:02 pm

RoginaJack wrote:Actually, I've reckon the .243w is very much underrated for Austalian conditions.

Having said that, I've shot more pigs with the Ol' 303 (7.7mm) SMLE, heavy barrel and iron sights than any other rifle. It just does the job all the time,


---

I have to say I'm surprised there hasn't been many people singing the praises of the venerable old .303 SMLE. I had the impression it would be held in higher regard as a utilitarian rifle/calibre :huh:
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by Blr243 » 03 Aug 2019, 6:00 pm

Today we are bred to weak to cart smle in the scrub
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by bigrich » 03 Aug 2019, 6:23 pm

Blr243 wrote:Today we are bred to weak to cart smle in the scrub


303 Enfield have their uses, and their fans . it’s not that the 303 kicks that hard , but the Enfield stock is of poor design to control recoil compared to say a Mauser . The narrow Enfield stock with a brass butt plate was designed to torture the person pulling the trigger. :P By choice one of my model 70 Winchester’s is much more accurate and pleasant to shoot . A 303-25 would be a good thing for what the OP wants to do though, and is a pleasant flat shooting caliber. I know a couple of fellas with old sportco modified Enfields and their a good thing JMHO
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by SCJ429 » 03 Aug 2019, 7:29 pm

What if 1914 AIF troops when they went to the armoury were given a choice between a Lee Enfield in 303 and a Remington 700 in 6.5x47 Lapua?

It is a pity that Paul Mauser worked for the opposition.
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by Blr243 » 03 Aug 2019, 7:30 pm

I was actually referring to the weight of carrying it around .... my no 4 won’t hurt in the field due to the usual standing position and the relatively few shots fired It only smashes my shoulder when I shoot too many rounds at the range
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by RoginaJack » 03 Aug 2019, 9:10 pm

What's that you say, a 303 has recoil? Bugger me, ya learn something new everyday.

i used to carry one around in the local school cadets from 1st year high school, 4 mile marches out to the range at Singleton army camp for range practice with the Bren and Rifle and never noticed.. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by Die Judicii » 04 Aug 2019, 8:23 am

RoginaJack wrote:What's that you say, a 303 has recoil? Bugger me, ya learn something new everyday.

i used to carry one around in the local school cadets from 1st year high school, 4 mile marches out to the range at Singleton army camp for range practice with the Bren and Rifle and never noticed.. :lol: :lol:


+1, :thumbsup:

BLR got it right straight up. We are breeding some pretty soft specimens nowadays.
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by bigrich » 04 Aug 2019, 10:12 am

Given a choice a modern sporter makes good sense , I’ve lugged Mausers around the bush and I wouldn’t say I’ve struggled. It’s just that unless you’re a Enfield enthusiast there’s better choices
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by ScottyD » 27 Nov 2019, 1:50 am

I've been continuing my online research (whilst I wait patiently for my licence to come through), and have a possible solution that I'd like to run by you guys for comment/suggestions.

Seems my main issue when going after the dogs and pigs (possibly deer - I hear they're around but haven't seen any yet) will be either trying to take them at relatively short distances in thick bush, or else over longer distances in more open terrain. I think this distinction means I'll need to have two different rifles entirely.

I've read articles/seen videos suggesting that slower moving blunt rounds are more effective/efficient in scrub, where the range is much closer and branches/foliage must be penetrated without deflecting the shot. In this scenario I'm wondering if something like a 30 30 might be more appropriate, perhaps with a forward mounted scope (red dot?) so that it becomes something like a scout rifle (fast target acquisition).

Then for when I'm patrolling the more open areas, I'd then possibly go for something more 308ish/sniper-like.

Anyway, what do you folks reckon? Am I on the right track or going off on a tangent?
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by bigrich » 27 Nov 2019, 7:34 am

ScottyD wrote:I've been continuing my online research (whilst I wait patiently for my licence to come through), and have a possible solution that I'd like to run by you guys for comment/suggestions.

Seems my main issue when going after the dogs and pigs (possibly deer - I hear they're around but haven't seen any yet) will be either trying to take them at relatively short distances in thick bush, or else over longer distances in more open terrain. I think this distinction means I'll need to have two different rifles entirely.

I've read articles/seen videos suggesting that slower moving blunt rounds are more effective/efficient in scrub, where the range is much closer and branches/foliage must be penetrated without deflecting the shot. In this scenario I'm wondering if something like a 30 30 might be more appropriate, perhaps with a forward mounted scope (red dot?) so that it becomes something like a scout rifle (fast target acquisition).

Then for when I'm patrolling the more open areas, I'd then possibly go for something more 308ish/sniper-like.

Anyway, what do you folks reckon? Am I on the right track or going off on a tangent?


check out a 308 ruger gunsight scout . i think you can get them in 6.5CM as well ,20" barrel , put a low power 1-5x20 scope on it and practice long shots . i've done long shots with low magnification a few times, and has a broad field of veiw compared to high magnification :thumbsup:
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by Oldbloke » 27 Nov 2019, 7:44 pm

" check out a 308 ruger gunsight scout . i think you can get them in 6.5CM as well ,20" barrel , put a low power 1-5x20 scope on it and practice long shots . i've done long shots with low magnification a few times, and has a broad field of veiw compared to high magnification "

bigrich

A 308, 243, 270, 7x57, 30.06, 8x57, 22,250 in any modern bolt action are all pretty good choices. Any modern rifle will do what you want . But i wouldnt get that scope. It will be useless in low light situations. You neen a 40mm objective lense. 2-7 ×40 or 3-9×40 all good, a 4x40 is a good cheap loght weight compromise.
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by GQshayne » 27 Nov 2019, 7:51 pm

Not necessary depending on what you get - one rifle can do both. This of course also negates the problem of having the wrong rifle in your hands, ie, you have your 30/30 and see a dog at about 275m away. No good really. Happened to my dad enough for him to swap his 30/30 for a .243.

So think of a calibre that can do both, .243, 7mm/08, any of the 6.5's (not creedmore though) etc. Something with a good trajectory and good energy for hunting. As for the rifle, I have a BLR. Fast in the thick stuff, and in .243, good enough for longer range. I have a 1-6 scope on mine, but a 2-8 would be another option.

Two rifles is great, but you can only carry one at a time. I am not a big believer in the old "brush bucking" theories. I think that the advantages of catridges with higher velocities outweigh any possible disadvantages.
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by bigrich » 28 Nov 2019, 7:43 am

everything is a compromise at times ;) your right about the 1-5 in low light OB , i find low magnification to be quick to acquire targets ,but i have'nt had to use one in low light yet , you've given me something to think about . the OP wanted a rifle to cover every situation , the ruger carbine is pointy for in close and with a 20" barrel is more than accurate at distance . i don't hunt in scrub much , so my do all rifle is a 6.5x55 with a 3-9x40 loopy . i also own iron sighted 30-30 and a peep sighted 8x57 carbine , but i reach for the 6.5 everytime for it's versatility :thumbsup:
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by Oldbloke » 28 Nov 2019, 8:58 am

Ill sell u my 1-5×20 if you want it. Lol
Yes wide field of view but u pay in low light.

All my rifles now have 3-9×40s 50mm is i believe a fair bit better but u pay a premium. Bigger and heavier too.
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by ScottyD » 28 Nov 2019, 3:15 pm

Hmmm, as usual some excellent & helpful points raised. Thanks very much guys.

I think you might’ve hit one of the biggest issues with the two gun option right on the head GQshane. I can only carry one rifle at a time, and sure as s**t it’ll be the wrong one when it’s needed. So it looks like I’m back to the one gun route again.

I am pretty interested in the scout rifle concept, it seems to be the sort of tool with the flexibility I’m needing. And you’re right bigrich, the Ruger does look like a great example of the genre (I enjoyed reading about caveman’s Ruger scout in the scout rifle thread). I didn’t know it came with a 20” barrel, that does make it even more appealing. Especially if I go 308, which I’m starting to think might be best for when my only shot is a long one (might also help with pushing through bushes at shorter ranges too perhaps).
When it finally comes time to buy, I’m hoping to go and shoulder the different rifles, and see if there’s a discernible difference to the fit/handling for me. The Styer scout also has me curious, but it’s pretty bloody expensive. It’d have to be a pretty decent rifle to warrant that sort of expense.
I’ve also heard people recommending the Weatherby carbine, although it’s not really a scout type rifle (no detachable magazine nor option for forward mounted scope).

I’ll certainly keep your suggestions about the 40mm objective lense scopes for low light use Oldbloke, especially since I foresee those being exactly the times when I will most likely be going for a ‘quiet little wander’.

Very frustrating having to wait so long for my licence, I wish I’d started the process a lot sooner. Getting frequent sightings of three wild dogs hunting together along the gullies of our neighbours places across the road lately. My trigger finger is actually getting physically itchy.
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by bladeracer » 28 Nov 2019, 4:06 pm

ScottyD wrote:I think you might’ve hit one of the biggest issues with the two gun option right on the head GQshane. I can only carry one rifle at a time, and sure as s**t it’ll be the wrong one when it’s needed. So it looks like I’m back to the one gun route again.


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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by bigrich » 28 Nov 2019, 4:53 pm

ScottyD wrote:Hmmm, as usual some excellent & helpful points raised. Thanks very much guys.

I think you might’ve hit one of the biggest issues with the two gun option right on the head GQshane. I can only carry one rifle at a time, and sure as s**t it’ll be the wrong one when it’s needed. So it looks like I’m back to the one gun route again.

I am pretty interested in the scout rifle concept, it seems to be the sort of tool with the flexibility I’m needing. And you’re right bigrich, the Ruger does look like a great example of the genre (I enjoyed reading about caveman’s Ruger scout in the scout rifle thread). I didn’t know it came with a 20” barrel, that does make it even more appealing. Especially if I go 308, which I’m starting to think might be best for when my only shot is a long one (might also help with pushing through bushes at shorter ranges too perhaps).
When it finally comes time to buy, I’m hoping to go and shoulder the different rifles, and see if there’s a discernible difference to the fit/handling for me. The Styer scout also has me curious, but it’s pretty bloody expensive. It’d have to be a pretty decent rifle to warrant that sort of expense.
I’ve also heard people recommending the Weatherby carbine, although it’s not really a scout type rifle (no detachable magazine nor option for forward mounted scope).

I’ll certainly keep your suggestions about the 40mm objective lense scopes for low light use Oldbloke, especially since I foresee those being exactly the times when I will most likely be going for a ‘quiet little wander’.

Very frustrating having to wait so long for my licence, I wish I’d started the process a lot sooner. Getting frequent sightings of three wild dogs hunting together along the gullies of our neighbours places across the road lately. My trigger finger is actually getting physically itchy.


i thought the ruger scout , 308 , 20" barrel fitted the requirments you listed . as OB pointed out , a versatile scope is needed for a versatile rifle . a bushnell trophy extreme 2.5-10x44 has a wide field of vision and magnification. their good for the money but they have a 30mm scope tube . just a few ideas for ya scottyD . the ruger was a little rough if cycled slow , slam it hard and it was fine , the trigger on mine had already been tweaked. but the accuracy was very good :thumbsup:
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by GQshayne » 28 Nov 2019, 7:51 pm

A couple of points on scopes. Size of the objective is important, but needs to be considered in regards to the rest of the scope specifications. What you can google to read about is "exit pupil". The ideal for the human eye is considered to be 5mm. So to work out what a scope is capable of you divide the objective size by the magnification. So a 3-9 x 40 provides for a 5mm exit pupil at 8 power. My 1-6 x 24 provides a 5mm exit pupil at about 5 power. So both will work well in low light, in terms of "numbers". But the quality of the glass is a greater consideration in my experience. In low light, the big names show their true worth.

As for what magnification you need, that depends on what you want to do. For me, thick scrub means chasing pigs in lignum and in scrub thick enough that sometimes you can't walk through it, you have to go around it. A pig will jump out from under your feet, and sometimes you will be lucky to have two seconds to have a shot before it is gone. I used to practice specifically to be able to acquire a target and fire in two seconds at close range. For many years I had a two power wide angle scope which was pretty good. My one power scope is far superior. The field of view in this circumstance is a big advantage for target acquisition. Inside of 50m they are a big advantage on a moving target.
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by Oldbloke » 29 Nov 2019, 1:54 am

Exit pupil is important, t hgats about making best use of what you have. But the size of the objective lens determines how much light the scope gathers to start with. (More important). The area or a 30mm is 706 mm and a 20mm is 314 mm, a big difference.

Just by changing the magnification of a variable you can change the exit pupil size. You cant change the objective.
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Re: Newbie options - for pigs & feral dogs?

Post by ScottyD » 29 Nov 2019, 5:10 pm

Ok, thanks for the info on scopes. Looks like I’ve got a lot to learn in that area too.

BTW what are your thought on red dot type scopes in this application (I realise it wouldn’t be much chop for long distance, but sense they might be really useful for those sudden close quarters encounters mentioned above)
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