Penetration versus expansion .222 Rem

[NTSOG]

G'day,

Last night I sat up for and shot a fox that came to one of my bait stations. I was sitting on a dam wall a couple of feet higher than the fox which, at the moment I shot, was facing uphill directly away from me. Shooting slightly downwards I aimed for the centre of its exposed back a couple of inches behind its shoulders and that's where I hit it at about 75 yards. Ammunition used, for the first time, was Winchester Super X 50r. [I have been using Federal Power Shok 50 grs, but wanted to try other ammunition to test accuracy and for price.]

I was surprised to find the fox was still breathing and alert, but its back was broken and it was unable to move. I made a 'priest' and finished it off. The entrance wound was just over three inches in diameter which suggested to me that the bullet expanded explosively when it hit the spine, but did not penetrate further into its heart-lung area. [With Federal ammunition I have seen some large exit wounds, but only tiny entrance wounds.]

So how much variation in expansion is there between different brands of ammunition or was this simply a case of the bullet hitting the spine dead-center and encountering real resistance which caused massive superficial expansion, but little penetration?

Jim

[TassieTiger]

Geeez - you'd think at 75 yards it would have penetrated everything...maybe it was a a light load - silly question, did the shot sound / feel normal ?

[Harrynsw]

Funny i was having thus thought process a couple of days ago...
Iv seen what you're describing with a larger calibre, mate shooting a 270 corelokt 130gr at a pig 30m away, projectile hit the shoulder bone and broke apart into 3 pieces which was evident by the damage to the pigs flesh/skin.

I'm not sure how a solid copper projectile would have behaved or even a hollow point for that matter, would like to hear if any one knows.

[Stix]

NTSOG...im not fsmiliar with those bullets...but i think you'll find its got everything to do with where you hit it.

22 cal hunting/varmint bullets up to 55gr will do that...they're made to be explosive on small game...so when you hit a solid bone near the surface/immediately below the skin, thats what you can expect....especially on a fox...!!

And at the end of the day bullet strikes are unpredictable...ive hit plenty broad side on in the shoulder right through centre of scapula with a little 32 gr from 204, & some have no exit would, while others have the opposing shoulder blown off...

I havnt actually shot a fox this year without blowing a hole in one, & im only using a 204... (i obviously need some shooting practice...lol)

Ive had to finish off many foxes this year, some even almost in half from 22-250...which brings me to say...
The other thing i find with foxes is, if you spine them, shock doesnt kick in as they cant feel & if you dont hit major blood vessel they seem to hang on for a long while after, as compared to other animals...

I always carry a 22 out with me when i go to collect one while spotlighting.

[bigpete]

NTSOG...im not fsmiliar with those bullets...but i think you'll find its got everything to do with where you hit it.

22 cal hunting/varmint bullets up to 55gr will do that...they're made to be explosive on small game...so when you hit a solid bone near the surface/immediately below the skin, thats what you can expect....especially on a fox...!!

And at the end of the day bullet strikes are unpredictable...ive hit plenty broad side on in the shoulder right through centre of scapula with a little 32 gr from 204, & some have no exit would, while others have the opposing shoulder blown off...

I havnt actually shot a fox this year without blowing a hole in one, & im only using a 204... (i obviously need some shooting practice...lol)

Ive had to finish off many foxes this year, some even almost in half from 22-250...which brings me to say...
The other thing i find with foxes is, if you spine them, shock doesnt kick in as they cant feel & if you dont hit major blood vessel they seem to hang on for a long while after, as compared to other animals...

I always carry a 22 out with me when i go to collect one while spotlighting.

This.

[bigrich]

Geez Pete, I thought ya would’ve told him to neck size his 222 to .358

[bigpete]

I've done 22/250 To. 358....

[NTSOG]

Thank you all for your advice.

In summary: a light weight and frangible, high velocity bullet stuck the animal's back bone, rear to front, at a lowish angle and in line with the spine. It exploded immediately at impact breaking the spinal column, but not penetrating to heart and lungs. (To my [inexperienced] ear the round sounded and felt like any other round I have fired Tassie Tiger.) For once I wish my aim had not been quite so good, but the Anschutz I was shooting is very accurate and I used the front set trigger at about 8 ozs weight off quad sticks. The night sight is a Photon XT 6.5X.

Many thanks,

Jim

[deanp100]

Another forum had a thread on the use of factory Hornady vmax factory ammo and those projectiles were blowing up on the skin of rabbits and leaving massive entry wounds and nothing else. Rabbit# shouldn’t survive 222 hits but they were. Maybe the Winchester rounds are using vmax projectiles and if so I would expect them to be equally useless

[bigpete]

I find that extremely dubious.....

[NTSOG]

G'day Dean,

They're described as ''jacketed soft point' ... which are designed for rapid, controlled expansion and maximum impact." They look like the Federal bullets to my eye. This was my first use on a live target. Off my portable bench in the paddock using my Photon night scope in daylight I was getting three shot groups of about 3/4'' size at 100 yards - very good for me.

Jim.

[bigrich]

i've used 55vmax out of my 222 on roos , you can get a bad result from them occasionly . but for the most part they do the job ,the exit wounds and "spray" is pretty graphic . i've wondered if it wouldn't make for a more flexable set up to find a slower expanding bullet . accuracy wise , their very impressive .

me personaly though, i love winchester rifles , but their ammo is generally crap

[deanp100]

G'day Dean,

They're described as ''jacketed soft point' ... which are designed for rapid, controlled expansion and maximum impact." They look like the Federal bullets to my eye. This was my first use on a live target. Off my portable bench in the paddock using my Photon night scope in daylight I was getting three shot groups of about 3/4'' size at 100 yards - very good for me.

Jim.

Any sort of controlled expansion should have controlled it enough to do the job a bit better than that. The Winchester ammo appears to be the Winchester psp projectile which would have been fairly standard I would have thought. Not a particularly frangible projectile. Maybe the only answer is a lot more field testing and report back.

[TassieTiger]

I find that extremely dubious.....

2nded...
No way.

[bigrich]

I find that extremely dubious.....

2nded...
No way.

rabbits with body armour

[deanp100]

I find that extremely dubious.....

You’re right. I read the thread again. Some hares survived the first hit and took a second. They were extreme,y explosive on rabbits with the only exits being gut hits. Anything in the front half just exploded violently with shallow penetration.

[Oldbloke]

The faster bullet is more likely to explode
The harder the target more likely to explode
The closer more likely to explode
Higher RPM more likely to explode
lighter the bullet more likely to explode.


Then consider bullet design etc

[Stix]

Another forum had a thread on the use of factory Hornady vmax factory ammo and those projectiles were blowing up on the skin of rabbits and leaving massive entry wounds and nothing else. Rabbit# shouldn’t survive 222 hits but they were. Maybe the Winchester rounds are using vmax projectiles and if so I would expect them to be equally useless

WOT...?

...

Wait up...

What..???



You sure he didnt load the cartridges with the tabs of acid & snort the gun powder...??

G'day Dean,

They're described as ''jacketed soft point' ... which are designed for rapid, controlled expansion and maximum impact." They look like the Federal bullets to my eye. This was my first use on a live target. Off my portable bench in the paddock using my Photon night scope in daylight I was getting three shot groups of about 3/4'' size at 100 yards - very good for me.

Jim.

Any sort of controlled expansion should have controlled it enough to do the job a bit better than that. The Winchester ammo appears to be the Winchester psp projectile which would have been fairly standard I would have thought. Not a particularly frangible projectile. Maybe the only answer is a lot more field testing and report back.

No fox out to 300 yds will survive a good hit from a 22 cal Vmax 40-55 gr...let alone a rabbit...& for that matter...Id love to see these rabbits survive hits from them...
Can you post a link Deano...?...(i assume its on AHN...?)...

Anything & everything ive ever hit up to & including fox sized creatures with any 22 cal hunting bullet travelling at over 1600fps is going no-bloody-where...except to heaven...& id bet my net worth on it they wouldnt survive at slower speeds either--but these speeds i state are what i can attest to...!

Ive even used the 50 Zmax with reduced loads of trailboss (10 grains) & head shot bunny's out to 130 yds...And even wearing earmuffs with the wind behind me , the "POP" is well & truely defined & the rabbits heads are, at BEST, blown apart...at worst, the expansion has taken part of the shoulder with it...

I even hit a big dog fox in the spine just above the shoulder at 125 yds with a 17 hmr couple months back...big hole on entry & dog was still alive---i have the skin with 2-3" hole in skin adjacent spine, & 22 cal hole in its forehead to prove it...

Personally i think, to have a fox be dead from a 17cal-22cal ballistic tip before its legs collapse, you want to hit it in the heart/lungs...if you spine it, it will kick on...guts em & they're dead before you get out to them..

That's just my experience...

And i seriously want to see this tale of rabbits surviving 22 cal ballistic tip hits...& i dont mean from being hit in the ears by someone who forgets they're sighted in for a 200 yd zero cos that what everyone told them to do...i mean alive rabbits with exploded skin...

[Oldbloke]

Hint........
Start reloading

[deanp100]

Another forum had a thread on the use of factory Hornady vmax factory ammo and those projectiles were blowing up on the skin of rabbits and leaving massive entry wounds and nothing else. Rabbit# shouldn’t survive 222 hits but they were. Maybe the Winchester rounds are using vmax projectiles and if so I would expect them to be equally useless

WOT...?

...

Wait up...

What..???



You sure he didnt load the cartridges with the tabs of acid & snort the gun powder...??

G'day Dean,

They're described as ''jacketed soft point' ... which are designed for rapid, controlled expansion and maximum impact." They look like the Federal bullets to my eye. This was my first use on a live target. Off my portable bench in the paddock using my Photon night scope in daylight I was getting three shot groups of about 3/4'' size at 100 yards - very good for me.

Jim.

Any sort of controlled expansion should have controlled it enough to do the job a bit better than that. The Winchester ammo appears to be the Winchester psp projectile which would have been fairly standard I would have thought. Not a particularly frangible projectile. Maybe the only answer is a lot more field testing and report back.

No fox out to 300 yds will survive a good hit from a 22 cal Vmax 40-55 gr...let alone a rabbit...& for that matter...Id love to see these rabbits survive hits from them...
Can you post a link Deano...?...(i assume its on AHN...?)...

Anything & everything ive ever hit up to & including fox sized creatures with any 22 cal hunting bullet travelling at over 1600fps is going no-bloody-where...except to heaven...& id bet my net worth on it they wouldnt survive at slower speeds either--but these speeds i state are what i can attest to...!

Ive even used the 50 Zmax with reduced loads of trailboss (10 grains) & head shot bunny's out to 130 yds...And even wearing earmuffs with the wind behind me , the "POP" is well & truely defined & the rabbits heads are, at BEST, blown apart...at worst, the expansion has taken part of the shoulder with it...

I even hit a big dog fox in the spine just above the shoulder at 125 yds with a 17 hmr couple months back...big hole on entry & dog was still alive---i have the skin with 2-3" hole in skin adjacent spine, & 22 cal hole in its forehead to prove it...

Personally i think, to have a fox be dead from a 17cal-22cal ballistic tip before its legs collapse, you want to hit it in the heart/lungs...if you spine it, it will kick on...guts em & they're dead before you get out to them..

That's just my experience...

And i seriously want to see this tale of rabbits surviving 22 cal ballistic tip hits...& i dont mean from being hit in the ears by someone who forgets they're sighted in for a 200 yd zero cos that what everyone told them to do...i mean alive rabbits with exploded skin...

Give me a minute. I see if I can figure out how to attach a link
https://www.australianhunting.net/index ... 9219.0;all
Try that. It may work. Have a read. They sounded like squirrel bullets.

[duncan61]

I load Remington PSP for the splatter effect.I mainly head shot roos but have done small pigs by neck shooting them on the run.On big male Western grey roos the projectile blows up enough to do in the brain cavity and sometimes does not leave an exit wound.Red roos are smaller and have softer bone structure and there is always an exit wound.If you are only shooting foxes with your .222 try some ballistic tip ammo.Most factories make them

[duncan61]

When I first started culling for money and reloading myself I used 52gn MK to be super accurate but sometimes the animal would get back up on the way to retrieve and I discovered my point of aim was centre of head and the tiny meplat target bullet was going straight through the nasal cavity.I became a better shot and started aiming for the brain and after spending heaps on ballistic tips bought some Highland factory for the brass and learned the PSP was more effective at blowing up on impact .I am sure
Woodleigh do not make solids for .224.I have shot rabbits at 60 metres with my full choke Greener 12 bore and heavy no 4 field loads and they have dropped dead and not had a mark on the carcass.They are not surviving a 50gn projectile travelling at speed Deano

[deanp100]

They died. Some of the hares apparently didn’t. There were photos of some very explosive rabbit pizza, and some photos of very shallow entry holes.
The guy doing the shooting knows what he is doing and he knows when he has a s**t projectile.

[duncan61]

I have shot 10mm mild steel plate at 100 metres and ballistic tips make a 10 cent piece hole and the PSP go splat and make a dent.companies do not spend their time making poor projectiles its a choice you can make when you reload.Hornady v max is a superb projectile and to claim they are no good shows a complete miss understanding of how things work

[Am88]

I cull a few roos every year, depending on conditions maybe 1500 to 2000 for farmers under DMP's in drought area's with a .222 loaded with 50gr Vmaxs. I have had instances of ninja roo's moving and turning heads right when you pull the trigger, it happens occasionally, a few instances they have turned their heads towards me at said trigger pulls resulting in a frontal shot just above the nose, which some of the poor buggers blows their snout off, I'd hate for that to have to happen to me and I feel pretty terrible about it to be honest, then I need to chase him down. Unfortunately I have lost a few in the scrub after them hopping away and unable to locate. I will be switching to 50gr soft points in the hope that this rare ish occurrence doesn't happen but will do some testing. I do like the Vmax's but another option is the Nosler however it is dearer. Pro's outweigh the cons for me with the vmaxs. They are rippers but for Indian minor birds but lol

[Stix]

Another forum had a thread on the use of factory Hornady vmax factory ammo and those projectiles were blowing up on the skin of rabbits and leaving massive entry wounds and nothing else. Rabbit# shouldn’t survive 222 hits but they were. Maybe the Winchester rounds are using vmax projectiles and if so I would expect them to be equally useless

WOT...?

...

Wait up...

What..???



You sure he didnt load the cartridges with the tabs of acid & snort the gun powder...??

G'day Dean,

They're described as ''jacketed soft point' ... which are designed for rapid, controlled expansion and maximum impact." They look like the Federal bullets to my eye. This was my first use on a live target. Off my portable bench in the paddock using my Photon night scope in daylight I was getting three shot groups of about 3/4'' size at 100 yards - very good for me.

Jim.

Any sort of controlled expansion should have controlled it enough to do the job a bit better than that. The Winchester ammo appears to be the Winchester psp projectile which would have been fairly standard I would have thought. Not a particularly frangible projectile. Maybe the only answer is a lot more field testing and report back.

No fox out to 300 yds will survive a good hit from a 22 cal Vmax 40-55 gr...let alone a rabbit...& for that matter...Id love to see these rabbits survive hits from them...
Can you post a link Deano...?...(i assume its on AHN...?)...

Anything & everything ive ever hit up to & including fox sized creatures with any 22 cal hunting bullet travelling at over 1600fps is going no-bloody-where...except to heaven...& id bet my net worth on it they wouldnt survive at slower speeds either--but these speeds i state are what i can attest to...!

Ive even used the 50 Zmax with reduced loads of trailboss (10 grains) & head shot bunny's out to 130 yds...And even wearing earmuffs with the wind behind me , the "POP" is well & truely defined & the rabbits heads are, at BEST, blown apart...at worst, the expansion has taken part of the shoulder with it...

I even hit a big dog fox in the spine just above the shoulder at 125 yds with a 17 hmr couple months back...big hole on entry & dog was still alive---i have the skin with 2-3" hole in skin adjacent spine, & 22 cal hole in its forehead to prove it...

Personally i think, to have a fox be dead from a 17cal-22cal ballistic tip before its legs collapse, you want to hit it in the heart/lungs...if you spine it, it will kick on...guts em & they're dead before you get out to them..

That's just my experience...

And i seriously want to see this tale of rabbits surviving 22 cal ballistic tip hits...& i dont mean from being hit in the ears by someone who forgets they're sighted in for a 200 yd zero cos that what everyone told them to do...i mean alive rabbits with exploded skin...

Give me a minute. I see if I can figure out how to attach a link
https://www.australianhunting.net/index ... 9219.0;all
Try that. It may work. Have a read. They sounded like squirrel bullets.

Hey deano, yep that link worked...!!...cheers...

For me there's nothing conclusive there, & ive had some pretty strange stuff hsppen with ballistic tips....
I dont think any 2 shots in those pics hit the same spot did they...?...i mean how does one expect a bunny to die when you shoot it in the guts & blow its back leg off...

I enen remember a hare i shot with sub hp 22lr (some 25 plus years ago) & it popped a big hole in the chest cavity, little to no blood & it was hopping around & i could see its heart beating...no penetration what-so-ever...

Maybe that batch had thinner jacket &/or thinner base...
But there look to be lots of shots that have impacted close to the (lets csll it) 'the edge' of bodies, & thats always going to be inconclusive to judge penetration & killing power.

Ive had 50gr Zmax (arguably same as Vmax) blow big hole on entry with little to no penetration on one fox, then big exit wound on the next, & then for some unknown reason only have the next shot, bar 2 or 3 bits of shrapnel, completelycontained in chest cavity... -& thats hitting within the same inch of the body...

Ill reserve my judgement, other than to say, respectfully of course, for me, i dont see rock solid conclusive results in lack of killing power in thise shots...
The bullets are designed for rapid expansion & max explosivity (is that a word...lol) on small game/varmints, & those pics display that pretty well.
Perhaps a more consistant poi would be more conclusive....

Also just to add...you cant tell the direction of the shot from the pics, which only makes judging penetration ability all the more harder..

[marksman]

link wont let me on unless l join bugger

in the past l have had problem's with z/v-max projectiles on roo's, it is occasional but it does happen
it's the reason why l wont use them for head shooting roo's
l have to say though they definitely have there place and can be very accurate

[Stix]

I cull a few roos every year, depending on conditions maybe 1500 to 2000 for farmers under DMP's in drought area's with a .222 loaded with 50gr Vmaxs. I have had instances of ninja roo's moving and turning heads right when you pull the trigger, it happens occasionally, a few instances they have turned their heads towards me at said trigger pulls resulting in a frontal shot just above the nose, which some of the poor buggers blows their snout off, I'd hate for that to have to happen to me and I feel pretty terrible about it to be honest, then I need to chase him down. Unfortunately I have lost a few in the scrub after them hopping away and unable to locate. I will be switching to 50gr soft points in the hope that this rare ish occurrence doesn't happen but will do some testing. I do like the Vmax's but another option is the Nosler however it is dearer. Pro's outweigh the cons for me with the vmaxs. They are rippers but for Indian minor birds but lol

Yep...im such a woos with that, i wait until roo has turned its head before squeezing off...if i have the slightest doubt of a brain hit ( i mean miss lol) i leave the shot, & basically now never shoot front on....i think doubt & hesitation creep in & sway the mind to aim at centre of mass, which will almost always result in a snout hit of some sort.

I havnt shot that many in all reality, but ive had that happen 3 times, & as horrible as it is, ive been lucky to have finished all 3 off with follow ups--only one took 10 mins to track down.

Ive seen heavy base hollow points that hold together in foxes still not penetrate when hit anywhere on the snout...the reality is the brain/stem/spine is a fair way back/behind snout & my experience tells me its unlikely any small cal hunting bullet would penetrate through snout & that far to aneffective instant kill...

Thats just my experience though...& ive not shot many as compared with you, or many many others...

[Blr243]

I accidentally broke the back of a fox on my last trip. It was lying down after the shot but with head held high and alert I was shooting broadside so shot too high and missed the vitals. ... bullet kept on going Finished it with a chest shot. I find it hard to believe that a 222 bullet could not make it thru the spine and into the chest on a fox. It’s possible when the position of the dog was a bit different to what u first thought ?

[NTSOG]

Bir243: "I accidentally broke the back of a fox on my last trip. It was lying down after the shot but with head held high and alert ...''

That perfectly describes the one I shot a few days ago.

As for position and point of impact it was exactly as described in my original post. I had been watching it eat cheap dog food for about 5 minutes through the scope before it turned to face uphill away from me so I had a clear view from base of tail to base of its neck. I was shooting off a set of quad stick rests while sitting - I might as well have been shooting off my bench and bags so stable are the sticks. [That's why I used the set trigger on the Anschutz; it is literally a hair-trigger.] It was a deliberate, measured shot and the centre of the large entrance wound was more less at the point I aimed. I suspect the main issue was the angle of flight [at 75 yards] so the bullet probably hit the animal at about 45 degrees or less from above directly along the line of the spinal column thus the round likely encountered more resistance from several vertebrae than if it had just hit one vertebral body at 90 degrees. I had assumed [in my inexperience] that my shot would penetrate through to the thorax, but it didn't. I will have to be more careful in future.

Jim