Penetration versus expansion .222 Rem

[Oldbloke]

Hint........
Start reloading

[deanp100]

Another forum had a thread on the use of factory Hornady vmax factory ammo and those projectiles were blowing up on the skin of rabbits and leaving massive entry wounds and nothing else. Rabbit# shouldn’t survive 222 hits but they were. Maybe the Winchester rounds are using vmax projectiles and if so I would expect them to be equally useless

WOT...?

...

Wait up...

What..???



You sure he didnt load the cartridges with the tabs of acid & snort the gun powder...??

G'day Dean,

They're described as ''jacketed soft point' ... which are designed for rapid, controlled expansion and maximum impact." They look like the Federal bullets to my eye. This was my first use on a live target. Off my portable bench in the paddock using my Photon night scope in daylight I was getting three shot groups of about 3/4'' size at 100 yards - very good for me.

Jim.

Any sort of controlled expansion should have controlled it enough to do the job a bit better than that. The Winchester ammo appears to be the Winchester psp projectile which would have been fairly standard I would have thought. Not a particularly frangible projectile. Maybe the only answer is a lot more field testing and report back.

No fox out to 300 yds will survive a good hit from a 22 cal Vmax 40-55 gr...let alone a rabbit...& for that matter...Id love to see these rabbits survive hits from them...
Can you post a link Deano...?...(i assume its on AHN...?)...

Anything & everything ive ever hit up to & including fox sized creatures with any 22 cal hunting bullet travelling at over 1600fps is going no-bloody-where...except to heaven...& id bet my net worth on it they wouldnt survive at slower speeds either--but these speeds i state are what i can attest to...!

Ive even used the 50 Zmax with reduced loads of trailboss (10 grains) & head shot bunny's out to 130 yds...And even wearing earmuffs with the wind behind me , the "POP" is well & truely defined & the rabbits heads are, at BEST, blown apart...at worst, the expansion has taken part of the shoulder with it...

I even hit a big dog fox in the spine just above the shoulder at 125 yds with a 17 hmr couple months back...big hole on entry & dog was still alive---i have the skin with 2-3" hole in skin adjacent spine, & 22 cal hole in its forehead to prove it...

Personally i think, to have a fox be dead from a 17cal-22cal ballistic tip before its legs collapse, you want to hit it in the heart/lungs...if you spine it, it will kick on...guts em & they're dead before you get out to them..

That's just my experience...

And i seriously want to see this tale of rabbits surviving 22 cal ballistic tip hits...& i dont mean from being hit in the ears by someone who forgets they're sighted in for a 200 yd zero cos that what everyone told them to do...i mean alive rabbits with exploded skin...

Give me a minute. I see if I can figure out how to attach a link
https://www.australianhunting.net/index ... 9219.0;all
Try that. It may work. Have a read. They sounded like squirrel bullets.

[duncan61]

I load Remington PSP for the splatter effect.I mainly head shot roos but have done small pigs by neck shooting them on the run.On big male Western grey roos the projectile blows up enough to do in the brain cavity and sometimes does not leave an exit wound.Red roos are smaller and have softer bone structure and there is always an exit wound.If you are only shooting foxes with your .222 try some ballistic tip ammo.Most factories make them

[duncan61]

When I first started culling for money and reloading myself I used 52gn MK to be super accurate but sometimes the animal would get back up on the way to retrieve and I discovered my point of aim was centre of head and the tiny meplat target bullet was going straight through the nasal cavity.I became a better shot and started aiming for the brain and after spending heaps on ballistic tips bought some Highland factory for the brass and learned the PSP was more effective at blowing up on impact .I am sure
Woodleigh do not make solids for .224.I have shot rabbits at 60 metres with my full choke Greener 12 bore and heavy no 4 field loads and they have dropped dead and not had a mark on the carcass.They are not surviving a 50gn projectile travelling at speed Deano

[deanp100]

They died. Some of the hares apparently didn’t. There were photos of some very explosive rabbit pizza, and some photos of very shallow entry holes.
The guy doing the shooting knows what he is doing and he knows when he has a s**t projectile.

[duncan61]

I have shot 10mm mild steel plate at 100 metres and ballistic tips make a 10 cent piece hole and the PSP go splat and make a dent.companies do not spend their time making poor projectiles its a choice you can make when you reload.Hornady v max is a superb projectile and to claim they are no good shows a complete miss understanding of how things work

[Am88]

I cull a few roos every year, depending on conditions maybe 1500 to 2000 for farmers under DMP's in drought area's with a .222 loaded with 50gr Vmaxs. I have had instances of ninja roo's moving and turning heads right when you pull the trigger, it happens occasionally, a few instances they have turned their heads towards me at said trigger pulls resulting in a frontal shot just above the nose, which some of the poor buggers blows their snout off, I'd hate for that to have to happen to me and I feel pretty terrible about it to be honest, then I need to chase him down. Unfortunately I have lost a few in the scrub after them hopping away and unable to locate. I will be switching to 50gr soft points in the hope that this rare ish occurrence doesn't happen but will do some testing. I do like the Vmax's but another option is the Nosler however it is dearer. Pro's outweigh the cons for me with the vmaxs. They are rippers but for Indian minor birds but lol

[Stix]

Another forum had a thread on the use of factory Hornady vmax factory ammo and those projectiles were blowing up on the skin of rabbits and leaving massive entry wounds and nothing else. Rabbit# shouldn’t survive 222 hits but they were. Maybe the Winchester rounds are using vmax projectiles and if so I would expect them to be equally useless

WOT...?

...

Wait up...

What..???



You sure he didnt load the cartridges with the tabs of acid & snort the gun powder...??

G'day Dean,

They're described as ''jacketed soft point' ... which are designed for rapid, controlled expansion and maximum impact." They look like the Federal bullets to my eye. This was my first use on a live target. Off my portable bench in the paddock using my Photon night scope in daylight I was getting three shot groups of about 3/4'' size at 100 yards - very good for me.

Jim.

Any sort of controlled expansion should have controlled it enough to do the job a bit better than that. The Winchester ammo appears to be the Winchester psp projectile which would have been fairly standard I would have thought. Not a particularly frangible projectile. Maybe the only answer is a lot more field testing and report back.

No fox out to 300 yds will survive a good hit from a 22 cal Vmax 40-55 gr...let alone a rabbit...& for that matter...Id love to see these rabbits survive hits from them...
Can you post a link Deano...?...(i assume its on AHN...?)...

Anything & everything ive ever hit up to & including fox sized creatures with any 22 cal hunting bullet travelling at over 1600fps is going no-bloody-where...except to heaven...& id bet my net worth on it they wouldnt survive at slower speeds either--but these speeds i state are what i can attest to...!

Ive even used the 50 Zmax with reduced loads of trailboss (10 grains) & head shot bunny's out to 130 yds...And even wearing earmuffs with the wind behind me , the "POP" is well & truely defined & the rabbits heads are, at BEST, blown apart...at worst, the expansion has taken part of the shoulder with it...

I even hit a big dog fox in the spine just above the shoulder at 125 yds with a 17 hmr couple months back...big hole on entry & dog was still alive---i have the skin with 2-3" hole in skin adjacent spine, & 22 cal hole in its forehead to prove it...

Personally i think, to have a fox be dead from a 17cal-22cal ballistic tip before its legs collapse, you want to hit it in the heart/lungs...if you spine it, it will kick on...guts em & they're dead before you get out to them..

That's just my experience...

And i seriously want to see this tale of rabbits surviving 22 cal ballistic tip hits...& i dont mean from being hit in the ears by someone who forgets they're sighted in for a 200 yd zero cos that what everyone told them to do...i mean alive rabbits with exploded skin...

Give me a minute. I see if I can figure out how to attach a link
https://www.australianhunting.net/index ... 9219.0;all
Try that. It may work. Have a read. They sounded like squirrel bullets.

Hey deano, yep that link worked...!!...cheers...

For me there's nothing conclusive there, & ive had some pretty strange stuff hsppen with ballistic tips....
I dont think any 2 shots in those pics hit the same spot did they...?...i mean how does one expect a bunny to die when you shoot it in the guts & blow its back leg off...

I enen remember a hare i shot with sub hp 22lr (some 25 plus years ago) & it popped a big hole in the chest cavity, little to no blood & it was hopping around & i could see its heart beating...no penetration what-so-ever...

Maybe that batch had thinner jacket &/or thinner base...
But there look to be lots of shots that have impacted close to the (lets csll it) 'the edge' of bodies, & thats always going to be inconclusive to judge penetration & killing power.

Ive had 50gr Zmax (arguably same as Vmax) blow big hole on entry with little to no penetration on one fox, then big exit wound on the next, & then for some unknown reason only have the next shot, bar 2 or 3 bits of shrapnel, completelycontained in chest cavity... -& thats hitting within the same inch of the body...

Ill reserve my judgement, other than to say, respectfully of course, for me, i dont see rock solid conclusive results in lack of killing power in thise shots...
The bullets are designed for rapid expansion & max explosivity (is that a word...lol) on small game/varmints, & those pics display that pretty well.
Perhaps a more consistant poi would be more conclusive....

Also just to add...you cant tell the direction of the shot from the pics, which only makes judging penetration ability all the more harder..

[marksman]

link wont let me on unless l join bugger

in the past l have had problem's with z/v-max projectiles on roo's, it is occasional but it does happen
it's the reason why l wont use them for head shooting roo's
l have to say though they definitely have there place and can be very accurate

[Stix]

I cull a few roos every year, depending on conditions maybe 1500 to 2000 for farmers under DMP's in drought area's with a .222 loaded with 50gr Vmaxs. I have had instances of ninja roo's moving and turning heads right when you pull the trigger, it happens occasionally, a few instances they have turned their heads towards me at said trigger pulls resulting in a frontal shot just above the nose, which some of the poor buggers blows their snout off, I'd hate for that to have to happen to me and I feel pretty terrible about it to be honest, then I need to chase him down. Unfortunately I have lost a few in the scrub after them hopping away and unable to locate. I will be switching to 50gr soft points in the hope that this rare ish occurrence doesn't happen but will do some testing. I do like the Vmax's but another option is the Nosler however it is dearer. Pro's outweigh the cons for me with the vmaxs. They are rippers but for Indian minor birds but lol

Yep...im such a woos with that, i wait until roo has turned its head before squeezing off...if i have the slightest doubt of a brain hit ( i mean miss lol) i leave the shot, & basically now never shoot front on....i think doubt & hesitation creep in & sway the mind to aim at centre of mass, which will almost always result in a snout hit of some sort.

I havnt shot that many in all reality, but ive had that happen 3 times, & as horrible as it is, ive been lucky to have finished all 3 off with follow ups--only one took 10 mins to track down.

Ive seen heavy base hollow points that hold together in foxes still not penetrate when hit anywhere on the snout...the reality is the brain/stem/spine is a fair way back/behind snout & my experience tells me its unlikely any small cal hunting bullet would penetrate through snout & that far to aneffective instant kill...

Thats just my experience though...& ive not shot many as compared with you, or many many others...

[Blr243]

I accidentally broke the back of a fox on my last trip. It was lying down after the shot but with head held high and alert I was shooting broadside so shot too high and missed the vitals. ... bullet kept on going Finished it with a chest shot. I find it hard to believe that a 222 bullet could not make it thru the spine and into the chest on a fox. It’s possible when the position of the dog was a bit different to what u first thought ?

[NTSOG]

Bir243: "I accidentally broke the back of a fox on my last trip. It was lying down after the shot but with head held high and alert ...''

That perfectly describes the one I shot a few days ago.

As for position and point of impact it was exactly as described in my original post. I had been watching it eat cheap dog food for about 5 minutes through the scope before it turned to face uphill away from me so I had a clear view from base of tail to base of its neck. I was shooting off a set of quad stick rests while sitting - I might as well have been shooting off my bench and bags so stable are the sticks. [That's why I used the set trigger on the Anschutz; it is literally a hair-trigger.] It was a deliberate, measured shot and the centre of the large entrance wound was more less at the point I aimed. I suspect the main issue was the angle of flight [at 75 yards] so the bullet probably hit the animal at about 45 degrees or less from above directly along the line of the spinal column thus the round likely encountered more resistance from several vertebrae than if it had just hit one vertebral body at 90 degrees. I had assumed [in my inexperience] that my shot would penetrate through to the thorax, but it didn't. I will have to be more careful in future.

Jim

[Am88]

I cull a few roos every year, depending on conditions maybe 1500 to 2000 for farmers under DMP's in drought area's with a .222 loaded with 50gr Vmaxs. I have had instances of ninja roo's moving and turning heads right when you pull the trigger, it happens occasionally, a few instances they have turned their heads towards me at said trigger pulls resulting in a frontal shot just above the nose, which some of the poor buggers blows their snout off, I'd hate for that to have to happen to me and I feel pretty terrible about it to be honest, then I need to chase him down. Unfortunately I have lost a few in the scrub after them hopping away and unable to locate. I will be switching to 50gr soft points in the hope that this rare ish occurrence doesn't happen but will do some testing. I do like the Vmax's but another option is the Nosler however it is dearer. Pro's outweigh the cons for me with the vmaxs. They are rippers but for Indian minor birds but lol

Yep...im such a woos with that, i wait until roo has turned its head before squeezing off...if i have the slightest doubt of a brain hit ( i mean miss lol) i leave the shot, & basically now never shoot front on....i think doubt & hesitation creep in & sway the mind to aim at centre of mass, which will almost always result in a snout hit of some sort.

I havnt shot that many in all reality, but ive had that happen 3 times, & as horrible as it is, ive been lucky to have finished all 3 off with follow ups--only one took 10 mins to track down.

Ive seen heavy base hollow points that hold together in foxes still not penetrate when hit anywhere on the snout...the reality is the brain/stem/spine is a fair way back/behind snout & my experience tells me its unlikely any small cal hunting bullet would penetrate through snout & that far to aneffective instant kill...

Thats just my experience though...& ive not shot many as compared with you, or many many others...

It is a bit strange the feeling, it probably happens maybe 1 in 500 roo's, but you get excited with whoever your shooting with over a nice head shot or a good string of head shots and no feeling, It probably has more to do with letting yourself down a bit as well, I relate it to the feelings I've gotten shooting deer and the deer jump the shot and you accidentally gut shoot it, I just feel retched.

There is a lot of deals on 55gr soft points but not many 50gr so its hard to track some down which is also the main reason I went with the vmax's.

[Blr243]

Ntsog. I just reread your initial post and it sounds like you were very confident of the position and angles. So at the end of the day perhaps the length of the spinal column was enough resistance for the lead to fragment before some of it could get to the vitals ... I suppose sometimes Bullets just don’t perform as expected

[duncan61]

Am88 sharing that experience demonstrates that you have done a lot of damage control.Things happen when culling in the field.These are things that have happened to me all shots under 100 m which is what my .222 is zeroed for
.I have taken front on shots at less than 50 metres and must of scalped them as they have regained conciseness will hanging upside down with no organs.they dont last long but its distressing its happened twice
.I shot a large male grey down south and half the other side of its head was missing and fly blown dont know if it was me from earlier but disturbing all the same it makes you wonder what you are doing.99% its a bang flop the people that claim they never miss have never done it look away misses are common same as I learned that just before they go to move they drop a bit to load up their legs but you learn to read that same as you can tell when they are going to put the brakes on
.I culled a bit different from most I had a Nissan patrol ute and I would point the front bar spotlights on about 10-15% from centre to the right with the beam on top and the spreader below as that was where I wanted to shoot out the window and I would drive around with a handheld until I saw them then slide the rifle out put the spotties on then follow them till a shot was on.It worked for me as you could idle along until they stopped and choose the one you wanted.down south you have 3 seconds to get the shot off as they get shot at a bit and are nervous.Up north the reds just stand there as they are used to station utes and I have been 50 metres from a small mob with the engine running and spotlights on them and they have started feeding again.

[NTSOG]

BIR243: "... perhaps the length of the spinal column was enough resistance for the lead to fragment before some of it could get to the vitals ... I suppose sometimes Bullets just don’t perform as expected."


Or perhaps bullet manufacturers don't expect [inexperienced] shooters to place a bullet where there is a mass of bone [along the spinal column] so their carefully designed bullet expands at the surface instead of in the internal organs?

It's been an interesting discussion,

Jim

[bigfellascott]

I shot a fox a few yrs back with the 204 Howa, it was around 290m away, I was up on a hillside and it was just walking off and about to drop down into a bit of a washout - all I had to aim at was it's rear end and bit of spine so I quickly aimed above it's tail (held about an inch or 2 over it and sent one, it nailed it in the spine nicely and it dropped dead on the spot, no movement nothing, that was using a 39gn sierra BK.

[deanp100]

Another forum had a thread on the use of factory Hornady vmax factory ammo and those projectiles were blowing up on the skin of rabbits and leaving massive entry wounds and nothing else. Rabbit# shouldn’t survive 222 hits but they were. Maybe the Winchester rounds are using vmax projectiles and if so I would expect them to be equally useless

WOT...?

...

Wait up...

What..???



You sure he didnt load the cartridges with the tabs of acid & snort the gun powder...??

G'day Dean,

They're described as ''jacketed soft point' ... which are designed for rapid, controlled expansion and maximum impact." They look like the Federal bullets to my eye. This was my first use on a live target. Off my portable bench in the paddock using my Photon night scope in daylight I was getting three shot groups of about 3/4'' size at 100 yards - very good for me.

Jim.

Any sort of controlled expansion should have controlled it enough to do the job a bit better than that. The Winchester ammo appears to be the Winchester psp projectile which would have been fairly standard I would have thought. Not a particularly frangible projectile. Maybe the only answer is a lot more field testing and report back.

No fox out to 300 yds will survive a good hit from a 22 cal Vmax 40-55 gr...let alone a rabbit...& for that matter...Id love to see these rabbits survive hits from them...
Can you post a link Deano...?...(i assume its on AHN...?)...

Anything & everything ive ever hit up to & including fox sized creatures with any 22 cal hunting bullet travelling at over 1600fps is going no-bloody-where...except to heaven...& id bet my net worth on it they wouldnt survive at slower speeds either--but these speeds i state are what i can attest to...!

Ive even used the 50 Zmax with reduced loads of trailboss (10 grains) & head shot bunny's out to 130 yds...And even wearing earmuffs with the wind behind me , the "POP" is well & truely defined & the rabbits heads are, at BEST, blown apart...at worst, the expansion has taken part of the shoulder with it...

I even hit a big dog fox in the spine just above the shoulder at 125 yds with a 17 hmr couple months back...big hole on entry & dog was still alive---i have the skin with 2-3" hole in skin adjacent spine, & 22 cal hole in its forehead to prove it...

Personally i think, to have a fox be dead from a 17cal-22cal ballistic tip before its legs collapse, you want to hit it in the heart/lungs...if you spine it, it will kick on...guts em & they're dead before you get out to them..

That's just my experience...

And i seriously want to see this tale of rabbits surviving 22 cal ballistic tip hits...& i dont mean from being hit in the ears by someone who forgets they're sighted in for a 200 yd zero cos that what everyone told them to do...i mean alive rabbits with exploded skin...

Give me a minute. I see if I can figure out how to attach a link
https://www.australianhunting.net/index ... 9219.0;all
Try that. It may work. Have a read. They sounded like squirrel bullets.

Hey deano, yep that link worked...!!...cheers...

For me there's nothing conclusive there, & ive had some pretty strange stuff hsppen with ballistic tips....
I dont think any 2 shots in those pics hit the same spot did they...?...i mean how does one expect a bunny to die when you shoot it in the guts & blow its back leg off...

I enen remember a hare i shot with sub hp 22lr (some 25 plus years ago) & it popped a big hole in the chest cavity, little to no blood & it was hopping around & i could see its heart beating...no penetration what-so-ever...

Maybe that batch had thinner jacket &/or thinner base...
But there look to be lots of shots that have impacted close to the (lets csll it) 'the edge' of bodies, & thats always going to be inconclusive to judge penetration & killing power.

Ive had 50gr Zmax (arguably same as Vmax) blow big hole on entry with little to no penetration on one fox, then big exit wound on the next, & then for some unknown reason only have the next shot, bar 2 or 3 bits of shrapnel, completelycontained in chest cavity... -& thats hitting within the same inch of the body...

Ill reserve my judgement, other than to say, respectfully of course, for me, i dont see rock solid conclusive results in lack of killing power in thise shots...
The bullets are designed for rapid expansion & max explosivity (is that a word...lol) on small game/varmints, & those pics display that pretty well.
Perhaps a more consistant poi would be more conclusive....

Also just to add...you cant tell the direction of the shot from the pics, which only makes judging penetration ability all the more harder..

Nothing scientific of course, but some of the wounds did look extremely shallow. Just saying. We can take from it whatever we want. Maybe that ammo was designed for squirrels and prairie dogs and not tough skins like Stanthorpe rabbits.
Cheers
Deano

[Am88]

Am88 sharing that experience demonstrates that you have done a lot of damage control.Things happen when culling in the field.These are things that have happened to me all shots under 100 m which is what my .222 is zeroed for
.I have taken front on shots at less than 50 metres and must of scalped them as they have regained conciseness will hanging upside down with no organs.they dont last long but its distressing its happened twice
.I shot a large male grey down south and half the other side of its head was missing and fly blown dont know if it was me from earlier but disturbing all the same it makes you wonder what you are doing.99% its a bang flop the people that claim they never miss have never done it look away misses are common same as I learned that just before they go to move they drop a bit to load up their legs but you learn to read that same as you can tell when they are going to put the brakes on
.I culled a bit different from most I had a Nissan patrol ute and I would point the front bar spotlights on about 10-15% from centre to the right with the beam on top and the spreader below as that was where I wanted to shoot out the window and I would drive around with a handheld until I saw them then slide the rifle out put the spotties on then follow them till a shot was on.It worked for me as you could idle along until they stopped and choose the one you wanted.down south you have 3 seconds to get the shot off as they get shot at a bit and are nervous.Up north the reds just stand there as they are used to station utes and I have been 50 metres from a small mob with the engine running and spotlights on them and they have started feeding again.

I did figure it's happened to others but no one really speaks about it, they all speak about how good of a shot they are and things never happen but I beg to differ, that's a good way to put it how they drop to load up their legs before hopping. It tends to happen now that I think about it after a while and I tend to get a bit complacent in my actions then that's when it happens. I've been doing it about 4 years now so anywhere from 6500 to 8000 roos I guess, on a good weekend covering 44000 odd acres we will average 300 to 350.

I have done a bit more looking around and on this website actually someone stated that the Nosler Ballistic tip has a thicker base which should help with fragmenting maybe. Sometimes things happen however, an example would be I've actually come across a good mob of pigs once (well more then once) but this mob was just kind of trotting, loaded with my same roo loads, dropped 4 pigs with head shots at roughly 50m in quick succession and they dropped instantly just legs gave way, shot either just behind the eye or just in front of the ear, a roo with significantly smaller head structure and im guessing bone strength has incident stated. Like said sometimes bullets do funny things. Nosler need to make a 50gr Partition for cheap I reckon for certain situations.

[duncan61]

I use Remington PSP they were $17.95 a bag of 100 last time I stocked up

[Stix]

Bir243: "I accidentally broke the back of a fox on my last trip. It was lying down after the shot but with head held high and alert ...''

That perfectly describes the one I shot a few days ago.

As for position and point of impact it was exactly as described in my original post. I had been watching it eat cheap dog food for about 5 minutes through the scope before it turned to face uphill away from me so I had a clear view from base of tail to base of its neck. I was shooting off a set of quad stick rests while sitting - I might as well have been shooting off my bench and bags so stable are the sticks. [That's why I used the set trigger on the Anschutz; it is literally a hair-trigger.] It was a deliberate, measured shot and the centre of the large entrance wound was more less at the point I aimed. I suspect the main issue was the angle of flight [at 75 yards] so the bullet probably hit the animal at about 45 degrees or less from above directly along the line of the spinal column thus the round likely encountered more resistance from several vertebrae than if it had just hit one vertebral body at 90 degrees. I had assumed [in my inexperience] that my shot would penetrate through to the thorax, but it didn't. I will have to be more careful in future.

Jim

BIR243: "... perhaps the length of the spinal column was enough resistance for the lead to fragment before some of it could get to the vitals ... I suppose sometimes Bullets just don’t perform as expected."


Or perhaps bullet manufacturers don't expect [inexperienced] shooters to place a bullet where there is a mass of bone [along the spinal column] so their carefully designed bullet expands at the surface instead of in the internal organs?

It's been an interesting discussion,

Jim

Hey NTSOG...
I think its good that you think about the bullet impact & the end result...

But, i have to say, that in this case, the reason your bullet didnt penetrate, isnt because it was inadequate for the job, or, the angle of delivery, or that it had to/couldn't penetrate 3-4-or 5 vertebrae, or the range...infact, it also didnt have anything to do with the bullet design engineers not taking into account the acumen, trigger prowess, & general hands on skill of the shooter pinging out their bullet...
The reason the bullet ,didnt penetrate is because it hit one single hard bone, that happened to be immediately below the surface of the skin...& keep in mind, the exploded bullet takes the path of least resistance, which in this case happens to be open air--thus making the lack of penetration & effectivemess of the bullet infact look worse than actually is
Its really that simple...

Im not trying to be smart either...small calibre bullets are designed for rapid expansion on soft small creatures--so when you hit bone with that kind of bullet--particularly thick bone just below the surface, they will always explode right then & there...

If that bullet were designed to penetrate that bone (keep in mind, the vertebrae of almost any given fox is umpteen times thicker & harder than that of a the scapula (shoulderblade) of a decent sized goat or even Deer, while also having a skin that is MANY times thinner than all mentioned... ), you would be complaining about 99.9% of your shots pencilling through the bodies of everything else you shot & them running away to bleed out & die, leaving you wondering how many 'hits' you actually get in reality while in the feild..

My opinion... ...That bullet did what it was designed to do...
Take some confidence & knowledge out of what you've achieved, & knowing you can place a bullet so accurately at that range, next opportunity you get,out to 100 place the bullet a little to one side to avoid the spine...or if quartered on, sneak it just inside the shoulder to knock out a lung, or if broad side on, try smack the thick part of the shoulder so as to liquify the chest cavity & have no exit...

I think that bullet did what it was designed to do...i also think you did a super job of landing it where you did, if thats what you played for...
Dont make an alternate reality out of the results...
Absorb everything you can about the shot, the bullet, the hesitation in watching the fox before you took the shot, the panic when you realised it might get away & how you released the trigger when that happened, how long it stood there feeding before deciding to take off, & the behavior of the fox in all the camera footage...you'll gain much more wisdom out of that, than thinking the bullet is no good & making excuses for its lack of penetration.

[duncan61]

I have been in ambush on an afternoon where I have a beater pushing the roos toward me and have taken a shot on a good size male roo at 30 metres and it shook its head and stood there second shot dropped it and on inspection it had the right side of its head peppered with copper/lead fragments.I had hit a small branch and the 50gn PSP had exploded.I could not see the branch through the scope as it would have been out of focus.I am sure if I was using hollow points or nylon tipped bullets they would have retained enough to have done the job

[Stix]

I have been in ambush on an afternoon where I have a beater pushing the roos toward me and have taken a shot on a good size male roo at 30 metres and it shook its head and stood there second shot dropped it and on inspection it had the right side of its head peppered with copper/lead fragments.I had hit a small branch and the 50gn PSP had exploded.I could not see the branch through the scope as it would have been out of focus.I am sure if I was using hollow points or nylon tipped bullets they would have retained enough to have done the job

With respect...Unless you are/were using 30 cal FMJ ammo, you cant predict that Duncan... and even then you just never know...
You may well equally have horribly wounded the animal too...

[duncan61]

Agreed.bullets do what they do.I placed a mate in ambush and drilled him that the roos must be head shot or I can not sell them anyhoo I pushed the mob around to his area and I heard him take a shot.I already had one down and scored another as they came back my way.When I checked his roo I could not find a mark on it and he had shot it in the chest straight on and the bullet had hit the sternum and disintergrated its heart lungs for an almost instant kill and the internal spine area did not have a mark on it.I processed the carcass and sent it in no problem.I used to cart my H&R single shot Hornet so I could put one in the brain in these situations and still sell them.They were going for human consumption and the head stays on.I also terminated our sick cows with the hornet as I felt .22LR was to weak for a cows head but it isnt.I wanted a Hornet anyway

[Oldbloke]

If your worried just go up a size and reload 55gr

[NTSOG]

In Memoriam - another hungry fox.

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Some more ferals at the bait station this morning grazing my hay paddocks.

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G'day all,

I thought it would be appropriate if the 'hero' of this saga appeared for the sake of posterity. He's shown walking out of camera range in the bottom photo, following the bait trail higher up the paddock to where I could get a clear shot over the fence around the dam. I was sitting about 65 yards away across the dam from and in direct line with the camera. The light from the IR illuminator on my rifle can be seen to the right-middle of frame as I waited for him to come out into the open.

Stix, as you suggested from the start, it was all about the angle and site on the spine where the bullet hit. It was a good rifle shot in terms of accuracy, but a poor hunting shot in terms of placement.

This morning there was a mob of skippies awaiting me when I went out to check the camera at the bait station. They increased since a neighbour whacked 30 odd on his property.

Jim