Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Varminting and vertebrate pest control. Small game, hunting feral goats, foxes, dogs, cats, rabbits etc.

Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by mchughcb » 06 Oct 2020, 10:30 am

In Victoria I have noticed a big increase in the use of Pros for culling of large vertebrates, in particular sambar deer. Whether its flyers from the government, various hunting associations, or just word of mouth from landowners.

I constantly hear that the Pros have semi autos, in 308Win using suppressors with nightvision/thermal vision driving around in quad bikes at night or using helicopters.

Apart from the obvious administration things like insurance and making money on their business I'm keen to hear what people who are pros and amateurs are using to do their work and do pros have a significant advantage by the gear they use in getting animals on the deck?.

For example.

1. Pros permits vs ATCW permit
2. Semi auto 308 10 shot mag vs Speedline 308 5 shot mag
3. Pulsar XP50LRF vs Pulsar XP50 LRF 2
4. Pulsar accolade vis Pulsar accolade
5. Suppressor subsonics versus muzzle brake
6. Quad bike vs quad bike
7. Helicopters vs sitting on ones arse.
User avatar
mchughcb
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1521
Victoria

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by eddievic » 06 Oct 2020, 11:09 am

I doubt there are any Victorian professionals on this forum mate.

There seems to be one here but people were having a fight with him on the definition of professional shooters.

I hazard a guess and with suppressors and semi they probably have a better chance of culling more animals
117, 22lr, 223, 243, 264, 308, 338, 416, 20g 12g

Soo many, but not enough
eddievic
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 159
Victoria

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by Farmerpete » 06 Oct 2020, 12:07 pm

In short yes there's a difference, you've listed a few semi auto, sound moderators, insurance.

the best example of the difference is the horse debacle, at best it was two guys who couldn't navigate mistaking a horse for a pig, at worst a couple of tiger happy guys who wanted to shoot something, a pro never shoots unless
1. they're sure of they're target and
2. they can miss safely
Farmerpete
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 292
Queensland

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by animalpest » 06 Oct 2020, 12:38 pm

It is not necessarily the equipment that maketh the man (or woman).

Some ameuaters have very good equipment, probably better than mine!

Often with these contracts its about your experience, examples of other work and your safety and operating procedures that get you the gig. The equipment is just one of those.
Professional shooter and trapper
Trainer and consultant
animalpest
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1025
Western Australia

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by Lebner » 06 Oct 2020, 6:11 pm

Really? I've only heard of them using 22-250's and thermals
Lebner
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 15
Victoria

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by mchughcb » 06 Oct 2020, 7:15 pm

Don't know how many people have semi auto, supressed 22/250 but I guess that could work.
User avatar
mchughcb
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1521
Victoria

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by marksman » 06 Oct 2020, 7:22 pm

not being a pro shooter myself but having culled sambar deer on a populous place permit in a deer protected area, Mcmahons creek
l'm sure your aware you dont need an ATCW on private property in Victoria
https://www.gma.vic.gov.au/hunting/deer ... e-property
at the time l was shooting sambar deer in peoples backyards basically, of course there were a hell of a lot of hoops to jump including applications, insurance, SOP's, written authorities from landowners and a police assessment/inspection of the site. it took 6 months for the application to be put through as apparently l am the first Victorian to have been able to get a populous place permit without being a pro shooter so l was told by the LRD. when my local DFO heard he wasn't impressed
l shot many sambar to the point that on my last 5 visits only shooting 3 they were thinned right out, l usually had to take a trailer to carry the deer home for butchering
at the same time melbourne water had a deer management program happening in the upper yarra catchment area where they did have to get an ATCW

doing some work for pro shooters l can tell you that there is a hell of a lot of work done behind the scenes before any shots are fired,
things you have not included are cameras and drones that are used by the pros as well,
the pros gear has to work but you or l can have most of what l have seen them use, their experience and knowledge of the animals is paramount
lMHO the pros have an advantage in getting onto some properties that no amature will ever be able to access that has no pressure
a lot of the pros time when shooting pest animals can be just sitting on your ar$e waiting
“If you do not read the newspapers you are uninformed. If you do read the newspapers you are misinformed”. Mark Twain
User avatar
marksman
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3660
Victoria

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by mchughcb » 06 Oct 2020, 7:40 pm

Good point the amateurs also now have access to relatively cheap thermal drone technology which a few years ago would have been prohibitive. So I can guess they to can scan large areas of bush looking for clusters of animals before sneaking up on them and laying them to waste with their 308 speed lines.
User avatar
mchughcb
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1521
Victoria

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by Blr243 » 06 Oct 2020, 8:41 pm

I think of a recreational shooter as one who does so as a hobby , I think of a pro as somebody who does it for the money. When it comes to harvesting wild game For meat or skins , I think it sucks. Burning up Deisel , flat tyres , windy nights. Dragging carcasses through the scrub , getting swine flu and lepto , blood guts and faeces , lousy prices , No thanks. In relation to shooting skill and differences between pros and recs, I have noticed two pros with exceptional capability under difficult circumstances. They could outshoot me in a heartbeat .....one of them adored my thermal gear when I showed him but he said he could not afford it.
Blr243
Brigadier
Brigadier
 
Posts: 4479
Queensland

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by TassieTiger » 07 Oct 2020, 4:39 pm

Ladies of the night definitely know a thing or two and they can...oops. Wrong forum.
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3704
Tasmania

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by brinny » 10 Oct 2020, 3:23 pm

Having a semi auto rifle and a suppressor doesnt automatically make you a pro....nor does it mean you will get the job in hand done....
Its your ability to get the job done that makes you.....
A day without a hunt, is a day lost.....
User avatar
brinny
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 302
Victoria

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by animalpest » 10 Oct 2020, 7:46 pm

We do a lot of contracts across Australia - going across to the other side on Monday for 3+ weeks

I can only think of only one contract in the last 20 years that we didn't get because of equipment. The others are about experience and reputation.

I guess one big difference for me is that generally our clients have a pest animal problem and we work out the best solution. Trapping, baiting and/or shooting are all considered and then the methodology, timing, safety, logistics, legalities and cost are worked through.

Strategic management
Professional shooter and trapper
Trainer and consultant
animalpest
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1025
Western Australia

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by mchughcb » 10 Oct 2020, 9:17 pm

So the main difference is strategic management?
User avatar
mchughcb
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1521
Victoria

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by brinny » 10 Oct 2020, 9:33 pm

Sometimes its not about volume of pests taken out.....one fox or dog can be a real problem to farmers....and sometimes they are the hardest to get......I kind of specialise in that type of control....and have sat out all night for nights on end to finally take the problem pest out....
A stud sheep farmer down near Warnambool was having fox problem ....

Got the bastard on the third night while he was actually attacking this lamb....
Image

And just recently a farmer up the high country lost some rams to dogs....
said he had the pros out there with no luck...
2 trips and i took out mum and her two pups....

Image
Image

A lot of times its not about going out and shooting great numbers......near anyone can do that....Its taking out the solitary ones....which are usually the hardest to get....
A day without a hunt, is a day lost.....
User avatar
brinny
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 302
Victoria

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by TassieTiger » 10 Oct 2020, 10:01 pm

Might be slightly off topic but - how good are the professional police snipers ? Would they win a Comp if they entered?
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3704
Tasmania

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by animalpest » 10 Oct 2020, 11:12 pm

mchughcb - few "professional" shooters have even heard of the term strategic management, let alone know what it means. No, it is how we deal with things strategically, in other words shooting is just one of a suit of options.

Brinny - I dont sit out all night waiting for a dog to come along. That is what a trap is for. Spend a little bit of time putting it out, do the next job and go home and have a beer at the end of the day.

In a recent job over 12 months, we compared the efficiency of shooting foxes and feral cats on a 500,000 acre property. We kept records of #animals seen, #shot, #recovered, # trapped and numbers of hours worked doing each. Trapping was 11 times more efficient than shooting. Adaptive management, using data and records, changed how we did things to be more efficient and more effective.
Professional shooter and trapper
Trainer and consultant
animalpest
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1025
Western Australia

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by Grandadbushy » 11 Oct 2020, 12:30 am

Well animalpest mate i take it you are a pro shooter of pests and have to account for every hr worked and that is fine , but i tend to swing with brinny , i shoot for farmers , whoever has problems with pests and who ask me to dispose of them, I'd rather hunt a problem dog rather than go out every night and shoot heaps, although if they're pests why not but the challenge of hunting that smart animal that has avoided shooters and traps for quiet awhile, that to me is a good feeling when i finally get them, i've sat nightly for 3 weeks before getting the animal, there was one once a large black dog I started off nightly for a week then weekly for 2 mths and never laid eyes on it for 18mths then one morning i was going home and the farmer came out to see how i went, now to me i reckon this dog was listening to the vehicle noise and knew when i'd left , but with the 2 vehicles moving together from different directions had confused him , because 10 minutes after we had pulled up for a chat who should walk along the ridge , the dog same dog from 18mths prior , how i know it was him was , he must have been caught in a fire at some stage as he had no ears just 2 tiny pieces of withered skin , so then i nailed him and the farmer was over the moon as was i , also shot 2 more on the way out but they never gave me that feel of achievement like the big fella i'd been chasing , so mate i thing all hunters are wired different and want slightly different things out of hunting although i reckon we all like the rush with a successful hunt and for me the harder and smarter they are the bigger the achievement feel is when i've succeeded in getting them
Grandadbushy
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 392
Queensland

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by Grandadbushy » 11 Oct 2020, 12:37 am

Well done brinny i see you are a sako man like me mate , what calibers mate i run 22-250 for dogs and 7mm for the larger animals
Grandadbushy
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 392
Queensland

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by brinny » 11 Oct 2020, 5:37 am

animalpest wrote:mchughcb - few "professional" shooters have even heard of the term strategic management, let alone know what it means. No, it is how we deal with things strategically, in other words shooting is just one of a suit of options.

Brinny - I dont sit out all night waiting for a dog to come along. That is what a trap is for. Spend a little bit of time putting it out, do the next job and go home and have a beer at the end of the day.

In a recent job over 12 months, we compared the efficiency of shooting foxes and feral cats on a 500,000 acre property. We kept records of #animals seen, #shot, #recovered, # trapped and numbers of hours worked doing each. Trapping was 11 times more efficient than shooting. Adaptive management, using data and records, changed how we did things to be more efficient and more effective.




I dont class myself as a professional shooter by any means animalpest....just someone that tends to put in that extra mile to get the job done for the "very grateful" farmer.....
Most of what we get down here are foxes, and the bulk of the properties are in the hundreds of acres....not the tens of thousands as you seem to have to shoot....so have to be managed differently as far as tackling problem animals.....
Its only of late that i have just started on the dogs, and that in itself is challenging enough....
The dogs taken were taken in daytime.....very early morning....Spotted mum and the pups out in the paddock...mum was onto me quickly and bolted without a shot being offered....but the pups werent as quick.....I went back a few days later and called mum in to within 10m of me in relatively thick bush and took her out....
One of my mates is a professional dog trapper/pig shooter etc in Queensland and does very well doing it....Runs workshops etc as well....
So i have no doubt on the effectiveness of trapping....

This big bitch i took out had a lot of grey around her muzzle, so had a bit of age to her....she didnt get to be that age by being silly....and there are a few pro dog hunters/trappers in the area, so she has been dodging them all her life.....
A day without a hunt, is a day lost.....
User avatar
brinny
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 302
Victoria

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by brinny » 11 Oct 2020, 5:41 am

Grandadbushy wrote:Well done brinny i see you are a sako man like me mate , what calibers mate i run 22-250 for dogs and 7mm for the larger animals


Cheers Grandadbushy......Yep....love my Sakos too...
Currently running Sako 85s.....i Have two 204s and a 223 in SS and varmint barrels and the Finnlight in 308.....
A day without a hunt, is a day lost.....
User avatar
brinny
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 302
Victoria

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by mchughcb » 11 Oct 2020, 6:58 am

animalpest wrote:mchughcb - few "professional" shooters have even heard of the term strategic management, let alone know what it means. No, it is how we deal with things strategically, in other words shooting is just one of a suit of options.

Brinny - I dont sit out all night waiting for a dog to come along. That is what a trap is for. Spend a little bit of time putting it out, do the next job and go home and have a beer at the end of the day.

In a recent job over 12 months, we compared the efficiency of shooting foxes and feral cats on a 500,000 acre property. We kept records of #animals seen, #shot, #recovered, # trapped and numbers of hours worked doing each. Trapping was 11 times more efficient than shooting. Adaptive management, using data and records, changed how we did things to be more efficient and more effective.


Well if an amatuer was also puting out traplines and following up with high cyclic rate firearms with thermal optics and keeping records of how many animals and time spent at home drinking beer I guess they are practicing strategic management as well.
User avatar
mchughcb
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1521
Victoria

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by Blr243 » 11 Oct 2020, 7:37 am

Regarding problem dogs There was a long time dog I think they called him hannabil ...took forever to get him. I read that someone said the dog had worked out the scent of the main trapper that was after him. An interesting read if u can find it on google
Blr243
Brigadier
Brigadier
 
Posts: 4479
Queensland

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by animalpest » 11 Oct 2020, 9:45 am

Haha mchmughcb.
Strategic management is -
1 Determine what the problem is,
2 Assessing all the options,
3 Select the most appropriate method,
4 Implement the program. Use Adaptive Management,
5 Assess the outcomes against the objective.

It is used by a General planning a battle, emergency services for planning for flòods, fires, cyclones etc, as well as pest animal control.

If all you have is shooting to solve the problem (foxes, dogs etc) them by all means use it. If it helps the landholder it is all good.

We use Strategic Management because we have a wide range of options and are not limited to one. We can therefore select the most appropriate based on safety, humaneness, efficiency, effectiveness and cost benefit.

There is not a fox or wild dog in Australia that cannot be trapped. But if you only have shooting as an option, go with that and feel good, you are doing someone a favour.

We do work in everything from back yards to the desert.
We tend to get called when everything else fails or its high risk.
Professional shooter and trapper
Trainer and consultant
animalpest
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1025
Western Australia

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by Grandadbushy » 11 Oct 2020, 10:29 am

Well animalpest mate i have no doubt of your ability as a shooter mate but lets not put all pros and helpers into their own collective box, statements like ''they call us when all else fails'' well mate that would depend on what, who, where , and how capable the first shooters were, now up here i can tell you there are casual shooters and farmer helpers like myself that can out smart and out shoot some of the pro shooters we have seen around here some pros come out all camoed up and leave a scent trail a blind man could follow ,yes they were pros yet had no ability to function outside the box , i do understand some pros are very efficient with their drones, night vision, and so on but lets head to ''gilgi country where you crawl on hand and knees to set traps in tunnels, lantanna country where visibility is 5yds then ''borrum'' bush country 6ft high and all tunneled pro or no pro it takes smarts to get these dogs/pests out some become too smart to take a bait, they avoid traps, and work out how you operate then train their pups ,lets not forget these dogs can recognise you by your smell and tone of your engine , i believe there is a place for both pros and help shooters but to make a statement like the above is just not correct i would back a smart , switched on shooter any day pro or non pro and there is more to be said about ones capabilities v being a pro
Grandadbushy
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 392
Queensland

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by mchughcb » 11 Oct 2020, 10:48 am

animalpest wrote:Haha mchmughcb.
Strategic management is -
1 Determine what the problem is,
2 Assessing all the options,
3 Select the most appropriate method,
4 Implement the program. Use Adaptive Management,
5 Assess the outcomes against the objective.

It is used by a General planning a battle, emergency services for planning for flòods, fires, cyclones etc, as well as pest animal control.

If all you have is shooting to solve the problem (foxes, dogs etc) them by all means use it. If it helps the landholder it is all good.

We use Strategic Management because we have a wide range of options and are not limited to one. We can therefore select the most appropriate based on safety, humaneness, efficiency, effectiveness and cost benefit.

There is not a fox or wild dog in Australia that cannot be trapped. But if you only have shooting as an option, go with that and feel good, you are doing someone a favour.

We do work in everything from back yards to the desert.
We tend to get called when everything else fails or its high risk.


Understand. I realize that amateurs have day jobs too so they rely on special weapons and tactics during pest control as opposed to strategic management. If only they could have that approach to pest control they could do much better.
User avatar
mchughcb
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1521
Victoria

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by TassieTiger » 11 Oct 2020, 12:13 pm

The question for me - if you cross that line from amateur to pro, does the shooting enjoyment wane ? It’s one thing to have it as a hobby, it’s another to be relying on results / business aspects...
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3704
Tasmania

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by Grandadbushy » 11 Oct 2020, 1:11 pm

To me and it's only my opinion is the only difference between Amateur shooters and the pro shooter ( other than the paper work) is the mental state they have toward shooting and the end product , pros are always weary of their overheads where a amateur isn't it's for fun where as pros are usually on a mission to succeed how many pros do you see giving high fives to their mate not like the amateur high fives all round with success , i wouldn't write pros off as they are quiet good at their set job , although one difference with being pro is it gets you onto places where no one is allowed unless certified as a pro ie state forests up here, council land and some crown land, it doesn't matter if you are pro or amateur if you are getting pests then you are valuable
Grandadbushy
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 392
Queensland

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by Tilb004 » 11 Oct 2020, 4:30 pm

animalpest wrote:mchughcb - few "professional" shooters have even heard of the term strategic management, let alone know what it means. No, it is how we deal with things strategically, in other words shooting is just one of a suit of options.

Brinny - I dont sit out all night waiting for a dog to come along. That is what a trap is for. Spend a little bit of time putting it out, do the next job and go home and have a beer at the end of the day.

In a recent job over 12 months, we compared the efficiency of shooting foxes and feral cats on a 500,000 acre property. We kept records of #animals seen, #shot, #recovered, # trapped and numbers of hours worked doing each. Trapping was 11 times more efficient than shooting. Adaptive management, using data and records, changed how we did things to be more efficient and more effective.



Hi Animalpest

Do you have a brand of fox trap you use .
I'm in WA and wouldnt mind giving one a go .

Cheers Tilb
Tilb004
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 116
Western Australia

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by animalpest » 11 Oct 2020, 8:34 pm

As a pro that runs a company that employs many, to me it is only two things - getting the job done with the best outcome and making a profit.

So what that means is I will look at new/high tech equipment and ask "Do we really need this" and "will it really give me a better job outcome"? If not, I don't buy it. I can't afford "toys" for work, I buy tools I need. I buy what is capable of the task, is reliable, cost effective and efficient.

Equipment doesnt necessarily "wane" when you become a full time pro, but you do look at costs more so than doing as a hobby. You need to factor replacement of equipment, losses, damage etc into your profits. To me, I have rifles for different types of work - cheap air rifles, expensive ones, old Lithgow .22 rifles (often our daily rifles!) heavy barreled ones, hunting weight ones, big calibres and little ones, bolts, levers, break open and semiauto. And scopes to match. If we don't have one perfect for a specific job we have one that will do. If it looks like we need one on a regular basis, we buy one for it. My calibres are - air rifle, .22, .22 mag, .22 hornet, .204.222, .223, .243, 25/06, .308, 375, 44 mag and shotguns.

What many people do to their 4x4 on the weekend I would never do! It's gotta be reliable in the long haul and take me to the desert and back tomorrow if called to do so. It's a changed mind set for everything.

Tilb004 - Victor Soft Catch are pretty good. Just make sure you only trap on your own property. The Animal Welfare Act requires you to be licenced in WA otherwise.

Grandadbushy - some pro's do a "set" job - like roo shooters. Others do everything from rabbits to buffalo and everything in between, from hunting to spotlighting, aerial shooting or just plain shooting. I am the latter.
Professional shooter and trapper
Trainer and consultant
animalpest
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1025
Western Australia

Re: Pros vs Amateurs is there a big difference?

Post by Grandadbushy » 11 Oct 2020, 9:34 pm

Yes animalpest mate , exactly the point i was trying to make with mind set pro v amateur is as you say , you have to weigh up many things to have a profit return amateurs don't, many amateur shooters also have different rifles for each occasion so no change there , pros tend to be mainly trying to make a living so his mind set is different to an amateur who does it for sport , i too done it for a living on top of my day job for many years but i did find in doing so from sport to pro i lost the hunt drive it was set traps , check traps , shoot , never had time to sit and enjoy the country around me and always tired and i agree with you, you always are weighing up what you need and what you don't as far as tools of trade one would say, i haven't completely given it away but only do it to help farmers around here to rid the hard to get pests and as a hobby i find i am enjoying it more again but i'm slowing down a little due to age and knocking my body around when i was younger it's all coming back to haunt me.
Grandadbushy
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 392
Queensland

Next

Back to top
 
Return to Hunting - Varminting and vertebrate pest control