Bunny loads for 223

Varminting and vertebrate pest control. Small game, hunting feral goats, foxes, dogs, cats, rabbits etc.

Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Mar 2021, 6:46 am

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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by bladeracer » 14 Mar 2021, 1:00 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Some good info here

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm


That does look good OB.
Wish it had .45 Colt data though as that's what I'm playing with just now :-)
Last edited by bladeracer on 14 Mar 2021, 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Mar 2021, 1:27 pm

Blade, If there is a cartridge there that has about same bullet weight and case capacity you should be able to transfer the data. There is some risk, but if your conservative, maybe worth a try.

That's how I worked out my 223 loads. Just used data for 222 with equivalent powder. But as I said there is some risk.
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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by bladeracer » 14 Mar 2021, 2:35 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Blade, If there is a cartridge there that has about same bullet weight and case capacity you should be able to transfer the data. There is some risk, but if your conservative, maybe worth a try.

That's how I worked out my 223 loads. Just used data for 222 with equivalent powder. But as I said there is some risk.


I don't need load data as I'm not loading for a .45 Colt chambered firearm, just a rifled chamber adapter in a 12ga. gun.
ADI data is 6.5gn of Trailboss behind a cast 200gn bullet, I'm already at 10gn with no pressure signs. There's room for another grain I think before I start compressing it, or seat the bullet higher to make room.
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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Mar 2021, 2:42 pm

Well, all good then if you have some trailboss.
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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by bladeracer » 14 Mar 2021, 2:52 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Well, all good then if you have some trailboss.


I have no shortage of powders :-)
I'm doing some velocity testing today, then I'll do some accuracy tests to finalise a cast load.
Then I want to work up a 250gn XTP load.
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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by Skinna » 20 Mar 2021, 10:58 am

bladeracer wrote:
Skinna wrote:Is that what they mean when they say the goal posts have shifted.?

I thought this thread, according to the OP, was about a better means to meat retention, but that had assumed slowing a bullet will do it without taking into account the introduction of a vast amount of trajectory loop & greater inaccuracy.?
I wouldnt think that was anywhere ideal for shooting bunnys out to 200mtrs. :unknown:

Now it seems about noise.??
Well i must have missed it. :unknown:

I wonder what the holdover & velocity of a 55gr bullet at 200mtrs with 4grains of Trail Boss out of a 223 is.?



You are assuming reduced accuracy, but you can build low-velocity loads that retain accuracy, at least on-par with .22LR to 100m.

Depending on where it's zeroed, a 100m zero would be dropping about 1200mm at 200m - certainly not what I would call a "vast" trajectory.

Trajectory is not a problem in daylight, especially at closer ranges. At 200m if you are 5m short or long in the range, you will hit about 30mm high or low, which is still pretty tight, probably still a fox kill. If you practice at random distances with .22LR, and shoot an area enough to get familiar with the property, judging distance is not too difficult, or just use a laser. And judging distance is an essential skill well worth learning.

I can see I'll have to take a bunch of subsonic out and shoot some groups at longer ranges, my guess is that jacketed bullets would group tighter than .22LR past about 125m.


Yes thats right, i am assuming lower accuracy. I fail to see how introducing more trajectory & wind drift into the scenario with a shooter already (seemingly) struggling with, or lacking the ability &/or confidence to aim smaller (head shoot instead of body shoot rabbits), is not reducing accuracy. :unknown:
Ive never heard a shooter say that introducing more wind (lower velocity) makes no difference to accuracy, particularly in the field. :unknown:

If reduced noise & meat retention is the goal, strap on a muzzle break, use accurate handloads & learn to shoot smaller targets by practicing better technique. This will disperse the noise more & increase accuracy & give clean bodies.

Im not arguing against the virtues of Trailboss--i love it & some of the best fun ive had is sitting 100-odd yds out over a warren & popping heads, & cheap plinking exploding water filled beer/softdrink cans.
BUT, cases charged with Trailboss & 200metre varminting bunnys for meat retention (requiring head shots) just dont go together in my book.
The bullets will still likely fragment (at least out to 140/150 in my experience) making a mess & the lower velocity just introduces greater inaccuracy.

As for your comment on 1200mm not being a significant holdover... :wtf:
:lol:
I commend you & your abilities, but when im out there sniping bunnys & going for head shots, i dont want to be guessing any more than 4 inches holdover, so 4 feet is, yes indeed, what i call "vast" for the rewuirements.
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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by bladeracer » 20 Mar 2021, 4:02 pm

Skinna wrote:Yes thats right, i am assuming lower accuracy. I fail to see how introducing more trajectory & wind drift into the scenario with a shooter already (seemingly) struggling with, or lacking the ability &/or confidence to aim smaller (head shoot instead of body shoot rabbits), is not reducing accuracy. :unknown:
Ive never heard a shooter say that introducing more wind (lower velocity) makes no difference to accuracy, particularly in the field. :unknown:

If reduced noise & meat retention is the goal, strap on a muzzle break, use accurate handloads & learn to shoot smaller targets by practicing better technique. This will disperse the noise more & increase accuracy & give clean bodies.

Im not arguing against the virtues of Trailboss--i love it & some of the best fun ive had is sitting 100-odd yds out over a warren & popping heads, & cheap plinking exploding water filled beer/softdrink cans.
BUT, cases charged with Trailboss & 200metre varminting bunnys for meat retention (requiring head shots) just dont go together in my book.
The bullets will still likely fragment (at least out to 140/150 in my experience) making a mess & the lower velocity just introduces greater inaccuracy.

As for your comment on 1200mm not being a significant holdover... :wtf:
:lol:
I commend you & your abilities, but when im out there sniping bunnys & going for head shots, i dont want to be guessing any more than 4 inches holdover, so 4 feet is, yes indeed, what i call "vast" for the rewuirements.
:drinks:


I disagree with you, reduced loads do not automatically equate to reduced accuracy. If the shooter doesn't have the ability to correctly judge distance, wind or holdover, that is not the fault of the cartridge.

Muzzle brakes don't reduce noise in my experience, if anything they amplify it to the shooter and anybody nearby. It's possible they might reduce the report when heard from a distance, but I don't think that is what most shooters' concerns are, it's generally more for comfort levels around the shooter.

Learning to improve your shooting will always be beneficial, even with reduced loads, and regardless of trajectories.

I have never worried about head-shooting to avoid meat damage on rabbits with reduced loads as the bullet is essentially a full metal jacket and simply drills a hole through the chest, which kills rabbits just as well as round-nose .22LR bullets at normal ranges. Rabbits have no meat to speak of around the chest anyway, I really only use the back half behind the ribs, and the front legs if they're intact.

Jacketed bullets do not break up at all for me below about 1600fps terminal, which is probably what a reduced load is doing at the muzzle. My 62gn SP load does 1575fps at the muzzle.

1200mm at 200m is small enough that virtually any scope can dial it in from a 100m zero, even a 50m zero. And it's still close enough to allow at least a decent chance of ranging it pretty closely by eye, with some practice. 1200mm drop was a guess that was exaggerated and based on .22LR ballistics. My 62gn 1575fps .223 load actually drops about 550mm at 200m from a 100m zero (and costs me twenty-cents apiece). At 55m it's about 45mm high and about 200mm low at 150m, very usable. At 200m on rabbits though I wouldn't be holding over anyway, get set up, range the target areas, dial the scope to suit, wait for bunnies to pop up. Like yourself, I only want to be holding over a matter of inches, so closer ranges and/or larger targets. And I wouldn't be choosing to shoot subsonic loads to much further than 150m on live targets anyway, but that's up to the individual shooter.

I noticed recently that Hornady offer a 190gn subsonic load in 300BLK and .30-30 nowadays that drops about a meter at 200m from a 100m zero.

I can only suggest you get out and practice more with the .22LR at longer distances if you want to learn about the effect of wind and holdover. Which is a ridiculous comment I'm sure, you probably already have far more ability than I ever will (without being cynical or sarcastic - I have zero interest in competition shooting).

Basically, if you can shoot well with high-velocity ammo at short ranges, there is no reason you won't shoot equally as well with reduced loads.
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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by Tubs » 24 Apr 2021, 11:50 pm

Hit the range on Friday. Great weather, lots of fun.

- Half inch groups at 100m using 8.8gn Trailboss in 223 using a 40gn Nosler HP
- Half inch groups at 100m using 14gn Trailboss in 308 using 150gn Nosler SP
- 357 is still all over the place, going to remove the scope and replace with a Skinners sight

Next step is to zero in at 200m.
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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by boingk » 25 Apr 2021, 10:28 pm

Attaway mate!

Gotta love the Trailboss for economical loading, good to hear its (mostly) going well.

Cheers - boingk
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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by Tubs » 26 Apr 2021, 8:38 pm

boingk wrote:Attaway mate!

Gotta love the Trailboss for economical loading, good to hear its (mostly) going well.

Cheers - boingk


Thanks, I suspect the drop at 200 and beyond will be nuts. Good for good short range bunny busting though.

Any idea where I can buy FMJ 223 and 308 boolets? Cant find anywhere that hasnt sold out!
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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by bladeracer » 26 Apr 2021, 8:53 pm

Tubs wrote:
boingk wrote:Attaway mate!

Gotta love the Trailboss for economical loading, good to hear its (mostly) going well.

Cheers - boingk


Thanks, I suspect the drop at 200 and beyond will be nuts. Good for good short range bunny busting though.

Any idea where I can buy FMJ 223 and 308 boolets? Cant find anywhere that hasnt sold out!


Do they have to be FMJ?
I've seen some decent deals on .224" HP recently.
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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by Tubs » 26 Apr 2021, 9:06 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Tubs wrote:
boingk wrote:Attaway mate!

Gotta love the Trailboss for economical loading, good to hear its (mostly) going well.

Cheers - boingk


Thanks, I suspect the drop at 200 and beyond will be nuts. Good for good short range bunny busting though.

Any idea where I can buy FMJ 223 and 308 boolets? Cant find anywhere that hasnt sold out!


Do they have to be FMJ?
I've seen some decent deals on .224" HP recently.


Hey mate, yes it's a toss up. For small game I still want to keep the meat intact. I figure an FMJ will punch through vs create a fine red mist. I still have a s**t tonne of HP 40gn Noslers so no big hurry.

Whats the best bang for buck 308 boolet? Cleaver have their usual specials. After I factor in (lots of) 2206H powder, primer, brass and the boolet, I reckon total cost per cartridge would be similar to 308 steel match factory ammo..... Obviously trailboss loads much cheaper but dont know if it would make for an ideal hunting round on larger game.
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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by disco stu » 26 Apr 2021, 9:40 pm

$1/round for steel match 308, I went this option. Not that I have reloading gear, but just seemed simple. I've only shot one hare with them, head shot and it was nice and clean
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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by Tubs » 26 Apr 2021, 9:54 pm

disco stu wrote:$1/round for steel match 308, I went this option. Not that I have reloading gear, but just seemed simple. I've only shot one hare with them, head shot and it was nice and clean


The 14 grains of trailboss in 308 150gr was smooth as, almost no recoil and accurate to 100m. Cant wait to test it out further but Ive calculated a trailboss load to be closer to 60c if I can get the boolet price down.
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Re: Bunny loads for 223

Post by Tubs » 26 Apr 2021, 10:01 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Tubs wrote:
boingk wrote:Attaway mate!

Gotta love the Trailboss for economical loading, good to hear its (mostly) going well.

Cheers - boingk


Thanks, I suspect the drop at 200 and beyond will be nuts. Good for good short range bunny busting though.

Any idea where I can buy FMJ 223 and 308 boolets? Cant find anywhere that hasnt sold out!


Do they have to be FMJ?
I've seen some decent deals on .224" HP recently.


I guess if I am running trailboss the projectile wont open so much anyway......
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