Bunny loads for 223

[Tubs]

Hi All,

Not sure if this should go in the reloading or hunting section but here we are...

I want to make some ultralight loads for shooting bunnies out to 100-200M. My 223 rifle has a 1 in 12 twist so it doesnt mind light pills, has anyone got a sample load they have used with success in this way? Have been using factory ammo so far and yeah they dont leave much bunny left over for eating....

Thanks

[No1Mk3]

G'day Tubs,
Haven't done light loads for the 223, but bladeracer has made Trailboss loads for it, perhaps use the search function? ( I don't know if it helps?) or bladeracer may jump in and tell his loads, best of luck.

[Baronvonrort]

Gwion did some .223 trailboss loads thread here- https://enoughgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3112

[Oldbloke]

Hi All,

Not sure if this should go in the reloading or hunting section but here we are...

I want to make some ultralight loads for shooting bunnies out to 100-200M. My 223 rifle has a 1 in 12 twist so it doesnt mind light pills, has anyone got a sample load they have used with success in this way? Have been using factory ammo so far and yeah they dont leave much bunny left over for eating....

Thanks

What powder do you currently have?

[bladeracer]

Hi All,

Not sure if this should go in the reloading or hunting section but here we are...

I want to make some ultralight loads for shooting bunnies out to 100-200M. My 223 rifle has a 1 in 12 twist so it doesnt mind light pills, has anyone got a sample load they have used with success in this way? Have been using factory ammo so far and yeah they dont leave much bunny left over for eating....

Thanks

Do you have any specific goal for this load, like bullet weight or velocity?

Trailboss, just fill the case to the base of the neck, seat a bullet, see how it shoots, adjust from there.
If you want to go right down to subsonic you'll be looking around 4gn of TB under a 55gn bullet, less for lighter bullets. Subsonic will drop a few hundred millimeters at 100m from your factory loads, assuming your normal zero is at 200-250m.

I haven't tried reduced .223 loads lighter than 52gn bullets, but I have bullets down to 30gn that I could have a play with.

If you want the cheapest load grab a load of cheap bulk bullets, like the Sierra SuperRoo at $185/1000 just now. Or bulk FMJ's are often on special, either cut the point off or reverse the bullet for hunting.

I'm ordering some stuff now so if you have a specific bullet in mind let me know and I'll try to get some for testing.

[Skinna]

I would learn to head shoot them with full loads.

If you use reduced loads particularly with trailboss you'll add a lot of loop (higher trajectory) to the bullet path making it harder to hit the target if you arent spot on with range.
From memory my 22-250 with 10-12gns of TB pushing a 45gr bullet is in the order of 4" low at150 yds when sighted one inch high at 100, so 4grns of TB with a 55gr bullet will be much worse. (I am going by memory for the drop so i could be wrong). But much past 120 yds with that load & POI at 100 yds im missing rabbit heads in the field with a dead hold.

My experience over quite a few 20 & 22 cal centrefires also shows me groups open up a good bit when you reduce loads with trailboss/dont use the cartridge at the better end of its velocity capability.

Use/try 40's in the rifle to shoot faster & flatter to minimise hold-over/under. Sight in for one inch high at 100 & check impact at 200, then go shoot them in the head with minimal hold-over/under out to 200, & hold-off for wind wont be much if any.

Keep the shots to the cheek bone & higher to avoid meat damage to shoulders.
Out to 200, aim to place the shot in the brain/or vertical line just infront of the ear & try to avoid aiming centre of mass on heads-that'll minimise run-offs from pulled shots & flyers that clip noses & back of heads, at the same time as giving solid decapitations for successful shots.

If your rifle shoots a 20mm group at 100m, you should be able to shoot a rabbit in the head at 200 & preserve the meat.

The reality for me is If using reduced loads, the varmint style bullets you will use will still obliterate a rabbit at 100plus metres as well as be less accurate, so will likely leave you with more missed shots, injured run-offs & unusable carcasses anyway.
So stick to full loads...the faster & flatter the better. Use the cartridge at its most accurate velocities will be better to achieve your goal mate.

[straightshooter]

I would suggest 55 grain FMJ projectiles in moderate loads ie; not maximum.
They will work OK in your 12" twist and will simply make a relatively clean hole in game.

[boingk]

Best reduced-load for a 223 is to buy a 22LR.

My Norinco/Puma JW15 came with two five round mags and wooden stock for $200. I suspect that may have crept to $250 now. Its no CZ but its pretty close in terms of accuracy.

Ammo is, of course, leagues cheaper than even handload 223 and the rifle cost about as much as some basic reloading supplies... especially at the moment.

Food for thought. I'd also second the above suggestions for headshots with full power rounds.

- boingk

[bladeracer]

Best reduced-load for a 223 is to buy a 22LR.

My Norinco/Puma JW15 came with two five round mags and wooden stock for $200. I suspect that may have crept to $250 now. Its no CZ but its pretty close in terms of accuracy.

Ammo is, of course, leagues cheaper than even handload 223 and the rifle cost about as much as some basic reloading supplies... especially at the moment.

Food for thought. I'd also second the above suggestions for headshots with full power rounds.

- boingk

Everybody should have some .22LR rifles in the safe, I think I have nine or ten.

But whether reduced loads, or carrying a second rifle is "best" will depend on the individual circumstances.

Reduced loads in a centrefire means that while you're out busting bunnies, you still have the option of dropping in full-power loads when required. Or, if you're deer hunting and see a cat or fox, you can drop in a subsonic load and take care of it far more quietly than a full-power load.

If you have a supply of cheap lead, like from recovering your .22LR bullets from your plinking sessions, you can load .223 (and lots of other chamberings) plinking ammo for the cost of a primer and a few grains of powder, the brass will outlast you at subsonic pressures.

I wouldn't be loading and shooting 1000rds of centrefire every month (lots of people do though, especially IPSC shooters), but for a few hundred rounds in a relaxed shooting session, reduced loads are good cheap fun too.

And there is some satisfaction in shooting ammo that you built yourself.

[Tubs]

Best reduced-load for a 223 is to buy a 22LR.

My Norinco/Puma JW15 came with two five round mags and wooden stock for $200. I suspect that may have crept to $250 now. Its no CZ but its pretty close in terms of accuracy.

Ammo is, of course, leagues cheaper than even handload 223 and the rifle cost about as much as some basic reloading supplies... especially at the moment.

Food for thought. I'd also second the above suggestions for headshots with full power rounds.

- boingk

Everybody should have some .22LR rifles in the safe, I think I have nine or ten.

But whether reduced loads, or carrying a second rifle is "best" will depend on the individual circumstances.

Reduced loads in a centrefire means that while you're out busting bunnies, you still have the option of dropping in full-power loads when required. Or, if you're deer hunting and see a cat or fox, you can drop in a subsonic load and take care of it far more quietly than a full-power load.

If you have a supply of cheap lead, like from recovering your .22LR bullets from your plinking sessions, you can load .223 (and lots of other chamberings) plinking ammo for the cost of a primer and a few grains of powder, the brass will outlast you at subsonic pressures.

I wouldn't be loading and shooting 1000rds of centrefire every month (lots of people do though, especially IPSC shooters), but for a few hundred rounds in a relaxed shooting session, reduced loads are good cheap fun too.

And there is some satisfaction in shooting ammo that you built yourself.

Yes, that is where I am at. I like the idea of being able to hunt without making too much noise, and ideally with a rifle that can do a bit of everything.... I have a Hatsan Escort 22 (CZ copy) which is accurate enough (1.5cm group at 50) but the scope that came with it wont work with my PARD 007.

Im about to pick up a Marlin 357 lever for some plinking fun but I wont be scoping it so it wont be a nightime gun for hunting.

My hunting gun of choice is a 223 Tikka Lite left handed - the Athlon Scope works very well with the Pard. . Ill be doing plenty of shooting with factory ammo but it will be fun to experiment with different variations of projectiles and powder, especially if I can shoot quietly, which is the main objective.

If Trailboss powder is the way to do it I will buy some. Is it widely available?

What's a good multi purpose projectile? Happy with 40 grains up to 55... Not sure if it makes a difference if Im trying to head shoot everything.

Thanks!

[Oldbloke]

Do you already have powders?
If yes, what are they? Pls list
Looks like you want a squib load?

There are other options to trailboss.

[Tubs]

Do you already have powders?
If yes, what are they? Pls list
Looks like you want a squib load?

There are other options to trailboss.

No rifle powders yet except for AR2205, which will be used for the 357. All work so far done with pistol powders/reloading.

[Oldbloke]

I said list all powders u have.

So, list the pistol powders u have

[Tubs]

I said list all powders u have.

So, list the pistol powders u have

Alliant 2400
APS 450
AR2205
Small amount of AP50N

[bladeracer]

If you want versatile try the 7mm-08, 78gn bullets at 3400fps up to 180gn bullets at 2500fps

I don't shoot at night, but the only time you need flat-shooting is at night or at very long distances, when it's difficult to judge or lase distances, or the bullet is coming down so steep that estimating the range 5m short or long means a 5m high or low miss. Are you able to range distances at night? The short fat lighter bullets have BC not much better than .22LR cast bullets, so trajectory at similar velocities are not much different. A 100m zero with a 40gn VMax in the .223 at 1080fps will still be about 120mm high at 55m and 120mm low at 125m. By 150m it'll be about 450mm low. But it's also close enough that you can get plenty of practice with .22LR to learn the holdovers.

If quiet is your goal then you want the lightest possible powder charges, pushing the lightest possible bullets. Heavier bullets require more powder to make the same velocity, and more powder means more bang. Trailboss is king in this respect as the low density means 10gn completely fills the case. AR2206H is also excellent for reduced loads. Pistol/shotshell powders are also good choices, but the tiny charges leave a lot of empty case which can degrade accuracy. The sonic crack is a large part of the report though, so even a 220gn subsonic bullet is significantly quieter than a 40gn bullet at 1200fps, especially to other people further away from your position.

But even a 30gn bullet at 1080fps has enough trajectory curve to require accurate range finding.

I've found that it's not really necessary to go all the way down to subsonic to be significantly quieter than factory ammo, especially with light bullets. A 32gn .204 bullet at 2400fps is very easy on my ears, as is a 55gn .243 at 2000fps. 1500-1700fps is a nice hearing-easy velocity for the heavier 150-200gn bullets. Personally, I would consider the sound barrier to be a "soft" limit and concentrate more on load development for accuracy than noise.

Trailboss comes in 1.5kg but it comes in the big 4kg bottles the "normal" powders come in. Price is around $140 but I don't know what availability is like currently, ask your dealer to order you some. TB is also good in virtually all cartridges, particularly the bigger revolver cartridges, like .38 Special, .357Mag, .44Mag and .45 Colt, and milsurp rifles - 6.5x55mm, .303, .7.62x54R, .30-06 and 8x57mm.

If you are shooting the brain/cervical spine, it really doesn't matter what bullet you use. I suggest finding a cheap readily-available bulk bullet though, like the 55gn SuperRoo, or the lighter VMax's, I like the Speer Hot-Cors in the larger calibers. Very few bullets will deform at subsonic velocities, but if you work on around 1600fps terminal velocity, most varmint-style bullets will still function, below that in smaller calibers (bullet diameter) consider everything to be an FMJ, and aim accordingly. Once you're up around .350"/9mm bullet diameter, a large flat metplated soft-lead cast or jacketed SP/HP bullet will still deform down close to subsonic velocities, if placed correctly.

It's a shame you aren't a lot closer, you could come and hear them for yourself.

Yes, that is where I am at. I like the idea of being able to hunt without making too much noise, and ideally with a rifle that can do a bit of everything.... I have a Hatsan Escort 22 (CZ copy) which is accurate enough (1.5cm group at 50) but the scope that came with it wont work with my PARD 007.

Im about to pick up a Marlin 357 lever for some plinking fun but I wont be scoping it so it wont be a nightime gun for hunting.

My hunting gun of choice is a 223 Tikka Lite left handed - the Athlon Scope works very well with the Pard. . Ill be doing plenty of shooting with factory ammo but it will be fun to experiment with different variations of projectiles and powder, especially if I can shoot quietly, which is the main objective.

If Trailboss powder is the way to do it I will buy some. Is it widely available?

What's a good multi purpose projectile? Happy with 40 grains up to 55... Not sure if it makes a difference if Im trying to head shoot everything.

Thanks!

[Tubs]

Thanks @bladeracer, some great feedback there mate, thanks again

[Oldbloke]

I said list all powders u have.

So, list the pistol powders u have

Alliant 2400
APS 450
AR2205
Small amount of AP50N

Thnx, I'll get back to u tomorrow with potential loads using above powders.

[Tubs]

I said list all powders u have.

So, list the pistol powders u have

Alliant 2400
APS 450
AR2205
Small amount of AP50N

Thnx, I'll get back to u tomorrow with potential loads using above powders.

Great, thanks

[Oldbloke]

Tubs,
You can of course use trailboss, but you may never use up a can of it as you use so little and I think it comes in 1.5kg cans.

IMO better to use what you have and not waist a heap of powder. Unless you intent shooting 1000s of rabbits.

I load a 55gr SP with 7.6 gr of AS50-N in my 223 (see thread link below)

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4991

I believe you can do same. You list the following powder in stock.

Alliant 2400 APS 450 AP50N AR2205

ADI Eq.JPG (78.19 KiB) Viewed 7299 times

APS 450 (preferred) AP50N These are close to Green Dot. (but not same)

See loads below from Lyman 48th manual for cast bullets using Green Dot.

Lyman 48th squib 223 55gr.JPG (53 KiB) Viewed 7299 times

Lyman 48th Squib 223 37gr.JPG (85.87 KiB) Viewed 7299 times

I believe you can use APS 450 or AP50N with 40 to 55gr SP bullets using from start load 6 to 9gr.(max)

SAFETY NOTES because the case will only be about 50% full.

I would NOT load below about 5.5gr for safety reasons.(possible detonation) But I've heard of some using Blue Dot and 800x as low as 3 or 4gr and these are slower powders. So 5.5 should give a good margin of safety.

Also double check the powder in the case before pressing the bullet in place..(i use a torch)
If you forget to load powder you may get a bullet jammed just in the barrel resulting in dangerous pressures if not removed prior to a follow up shot.

Its easy to double the load resulting in dangerous pressures.

[Skinna]

Is that what they mean when they say the goal posts have shifted.?

I thought this thread, according to the OP, was about a better means to meat retention, but that had assumed slowing a bullet will do it without taking into account the introduction of a vast amount of trajectory loop & greater inaccuracy.?
I wouldnt think that was anywhere ideal for shooting bunnys out to 200mtrs.

Now it seems about noise.??
Well i must have missed it.

I wonder what the holdover & velocity of a 55gr bullet at 200mtrs with 4grains of Trail Boss out of a 223 is.?

[Tubs]

Is that what they mean when they say the goal posts have shifted.?

I thought this thread, according to the OP, was about a better means to meat retention, but that had assumed slowing a bullet will do it without taking into account the introduction of a vast amount of trajectory loop & greater inaccuracy.?
I wouldnt think that was anywhere ideal for shooting bunnys out to 200mtrs.

Now it seems about noise.??
Well i must have missed it.

I wonder what the holdover & velocity of a 55gr bullet at 200mtrs with 4grains of Trail Boss out of a 223 is.?

My fault for playing chinese whispers - you're right on both counts, trying to minimise noise as well as not blow them up.

[Oldbloke]

I just noticed this.

" to make some ultralight loads for shooting bunnies out to 100-200M."

The loads I suggested above will probably only be good out to about 100 yards for your purpose due to the rainbow like trajectory.

Quiet, and flat trajectories just don't go together.

[bladeracer]

Is that what they mean when they say the goal posts have shifted.?

I thought this thread, according to the OP, was about a better means to meat retention, but that had assumed slowing a bullet will do it without taking into account the introduction of a vast amount of trajectory loop & greater inaccuracy.?
I wouldnt think that was anywhere ideal for shooting bunnys out to 200mtrs.

Now it seems about noise.??
Well i must have missed it.

I wonder what the holdover & velocity of a 55gr bullet at 200mtrs with 4grains of Trail Boss out of a 223 is.?

You are assuming reduced accuracy, but you can build low-velocity loads that retain accuracy, at least on-par with .22LR to 100m.

Depending on where it's zeroed, a 100m zero would be dropping about 1200mm at 200m - certainly not what I would call a "vast" trajectory.

Trajectory is not a problem in daylight, especially at closer ranges. At 200m if you are 5m short or long in the range, you will hit about 30mm high or low, which is still pretty tight, probably still a fox kill. If you practice at random distances with .22LR, and shoot an area enough to get familiar with the property, judging distance is not too difficult, or just use a laser. And judging distance is an essential skill well worth learning.

I can see I'll have to take a bunch of subsonic out and shoot some groups at longer ranges, my guess is that jacketed bullets would group tighter than .22LR past about 125m.

[bladeracer]

I just noticed this.

" to make some ultralight loads for shooting bunnies out to 100-200M."

The loads I suggested above will probably only be good out to about 100 yards for your purpose due to the rainbow like trajectory.

Quiet, and flat trajectories just don't go together.

But conversely, loopy trajectories do not equal inaccurate or unusable...

[SCJ429]

Yes you can shoot your 223 at subsonic speeds using Trailboss and it is quiet so you don't need earmuffs. It is important to use a bullet that will expand at these low speeds if you are hunting. This is even more difficult at longer distances.

I am with Skinna, use a 40 grain Vmax and head shoot using a full power load. Faster speed means more energy delivered and the bullet opens up. Shorter flight time gives the wind less time to blow the bullet around. Most people can shoot a better group at 200 metres with a bullet travelling at 3700 fps than sending the bullet at 1000 fps.

[Blr243]

Bloody hell blade, 9 or ten 22 rifles in your safe , I have none ....I do have a 22 mag that sees no action .....now I don’t feel so naughty about grabbing myself a new rifle every few months

[boingk]

Bloody hell blade, 9 or ten 22 rifles in your safe , I have none ....I do have a 22 mag that sees no action .....now I don’t feel so naughty about grabbing myself a new rifle every few months

Don't worry mate you're not the only one. I'm beginning to wonder if theres a certain point at which I need a dealers licence - buy, sell, trade, it's all going on.

Remember, you can't take the moolah with you so you may as well enjoy what it can bring in the meantime.

[bladeracer]

Bloody hell blade, 9 or ten 22 rifles in your safe , I have none ....I do have a 22 mag that sees no action .....now I don’t feel so naughty about grabbing myself a new rifle every few months

.22LR is way too much fun to not have at least one!
Ruger American Target (MDT)
Ruger American Compact (MDT)
Ruger Precision Rimfire
BSA Sportsman 5
Norinco JW21
Henry 001
Cooey Ace-1
Lithgow Model 1B
Remington 510/513
I think I got them all, maybe.

[Tubs]

Bloody hell blade, 9 or ten 22 rifles in your safe , I have none ....I do have a 22 mag that sees no action .....now I don’t feel so naughty about grabbing myself a new rifle every few months

.22LR is way too much fun to not have at least one!
Ruger American Target (MDT)
Ruger American Compact (MDT)
Ruger Precision Rimfire
BSA Sportsman 5
Norinco JW21
Henry 001
Cooey Ace-1
Lithgow Model 1B
Remington 510/513
I think I got them all, maybe.

Hate to be a rabbit near your place

[bladeracer]

Bloody hell blade, 9 or ten 22 rifles in your safe , I have none ....I do have a 22 mag that sees no action .....now I don’t feel so naughty about grabbing myself a new rifle every few months

.22LR is way too much fun to not have at least one!
Ruger American Target (MDT)
Ruger American Compact (MDT)
Ruger Precision Rimfire
BSA Sportsman 5
Norinco JW21
Henry 001
Cooey Ace-1
Lithgow Model 1B
Remington 510/513
I think I got them all, maybe.

Hate to be a rabbit near your place

Foxes only, rabbits are wiped out every year by calici unfortunately.