Spine shot foxes

[NTSOG]

G'day,

I've been hunting a lot lately with my Weihrauch 66P [.22 Magnum] using 30gr. V-Max ammunition. Aside from hares on neighbouring farms I've shot 6 foxes in the last three weeks at ranges out to 105 yards on my place - there are a lot about. To my surprise 4 of those appear to have been hit in the spine in/around the upper chest/shoulder blade area. They dropped like a rock. Two were quadriplaegic, i.e. totally paralysed, and two were paralysed in the rear legs only. One bled out last night in a few seconds probably due to a major blood vessel being ruptured also, but the other three required an extra shot in the noggin to finish them. They were alive, breathing and alert when I approached them. All four foxes were standing at different angles in relation to me as I aimed. Only last night's was exactly side-on at about 100 yards and he stepped forward as I fired. I wonder if I had used my centrefire [.222 Rem] if I would have noticed the paralysis. In short would the harder hitting rifle have knocked them over and killed them outright given the same POI, not just paralysed them?

Jim

[Lazarus]

This is not a criticism Jim, to each their own, but it's why I only take head shots and only ever use a centrefire on anything bigger than a rabbit.

[animalpest]

The higher impact velocity and energy would result in a larger wound area. You probably would not have paralysed foxes due to a larger temporary and permanent wounds.

[NTSOG]

Thankyou both for your comments. As you probably realise I have started to realise the limitations of the .22 Magnum as a result of this series of paralysed, but still living, foxes. I was pretty certain that the .222 Rem, hitting at the same POI, would have knocked them flat and made such large and deadly wounds that any paralysis would have been of minor interest as the foxes would have died very quickly. As for head-shooting, the little .22 Magnum is very accurate and hits where I aim it as review of my videos show, but I have never trusted my own ability on live targets to attempt headshots.

Thanks for your advice,

Jim

[MtnMan]

Might be different with 40gr JHP ammo too rather than 30gr stuff. Yes it will be slower and not as flat shooting but what is the point if when you hit something that far out it doesn't do what you want it to?

[Oldbloke]

Ok, I'm no expert but this is my take on it.

I took up daytime whistling foxes about 9 or 10 years ago. I like the challenge. I'm into hunting, not score boards. So I even pass up the odd shot to ensure good animal welfare.

At first I used my 22 lr and after loosing a couple (chest shot) realised it just was not enough gun.


I considered the 22 mag but soon dismissed it and bought a 223. Never looked back. Only one wounded since.
I never head shoot. He only has to turn his head or you miss judge range or tragectory and you miss or wound. This happened to a cat I shot many, many years ago. Hit the jaw. Finished it off about 3 days later. Not happy Jan.

I always keep in mind, in the field I don't shoot as well as on the bench. IMO this applies to most. We over estimate our ability, and often push the boundaries regarding range. Easy to miss judge range too.

So, if you decided to only chest shot what is the effective range? Remember you need a bit up your sleeve for shots like you have mentioned.

IMO for foxes.

22lr about 60 yards
22 mag about 80-90 yards
223/222 about 250 yards easy, not that I would ever attempt such a shot. About 170 is my limit in the field.

Yes, they are conservative but IMO you need to be.

Why would you use a 22 mag, sure cheap ammo. But if you reload so is the 222 or 223. You could use both and keep the 22mag for small blocks or reload low velocity loads for small bocks as I do.
I'm not knocking the 22 mag. It has its place, and plenty of fans, but its limitations also. (like all chamberings)

[NTSOG]

G'day Oldbloke,

Normally I shoot out the back of my place with the .222 Rem, but my wife has moved her horses to a paddock next to where I shoot, hence I'm using the .22 magnum for the moment because it's a bit quieter and none of the horses react to the smaller rifle. The six foxes I've shot over the last three weeks have been at ranges from 50 to 105 yards. I have read stories by others who aimed for head shots and just managed to blow an animal's jaw off which is another reason for my reluctance to try such shots. In most cases I'm shooting from sitting with a solid tripod rest, e.g. the Caldwell Deadshot shooting rest, though last night I shot from standing off quad sticks at about 80 yards as the blighter was already at my bait station before I could get to my normal seat without being spotted. [I always carry the quad sticks just in case I run into a fox while walking around at night.]

Jim

[bladeracer]

G'day,

I've been hunting a lot lately with my Weihrauch 66P [.22 Magnum] using 30gr. V-Max ammunition. Aside from hares on neighbouring farms I've shot 6 foxes in the last three weeks at ranges out to 105 yards on my place - there are a lot about. To my surprise 4 of those appear to have been hit in the spine in/around the upper chest/shoulder blade area. They dropped like a rock. Two were quadriplaegic, i.e. totally paralysed, and two were paralysed in the rear legs only. One bled out last night in a few seconds probably due to a major blood vessel being ruptured also, but the other three required an extra shot in the noggin to finish them. They were alive, breathing and alert when I approached them. All four foxes were standing at different angles in relation to me as I aimed. Only last night's was exactly side-on at about 100 yards and he stepped forward as I fired. I wonder if I had used my centrefire [.222 Rem] if I would have noticed the paralysis. In short would the harder hitting rifle have knocked them over and killed them outright given the same POI, not just paralysed them?

Jim

I took one with the .204 bullpup that I thought was just sitting watching me, but he was actually sitting facing directly away with his head turned over his shoulder watching me. Hit him smack in the spine between the shoulders.

The higher velocity impacts really knock the nervous, skeletal, respiratory and circulatory systems about so there's less need of perfect shot placement, but sometimes stuff just happens - none of it is textbook. If you have a fatal shot but don't disrupt the major systems the animal can run a long way before realising it's dead.

With the .22LR, WMR or HMR I would go for head shots if at all possible, but if you're shooting at night you'd want to be very sure of the distances. I only hunt them in daylight.

[bladeracer]

G'day Oldbloke,

Normally I shoot out the back of my place with the .222 Rem, but my wife has moved her horses to a paddock next to where I shoot, hence I'm using the .22 magnum for the moment because it's a bit quieter and none of the horses react to the smaller rifle. The six foxes I've shot over the last three weeks have been at ranges from 50 to 105 yards. I have read stories by others who aimed for head shots and just managed to blow an animal's jaw off which is another reason for my reluctance to try such shots. In most cases I'm shooting from sitting with a solid tripod rest, e.g. the Caldwell Deadshot shooting rest, though last night I shot from standing off quad sticks at about 80 yards as the blighter was already at my bait station before I could get to my normal seat without being spotted. [I always carry the quad sticks just in case I run into a fox while walking around at night.]

Jim

I hate shooting around horses, but our cows, and our neighbour's cows don't mind me shooting even bigger stuff around them.

For that situation I would just load some reduced .222Rem loads, you should get better accuracy than most WMR's are capable of, and if you do see a longer shot you can drop a hotter round in.

A mate and I went out last week to test some .303 in a back paddock in the Landcruiser. Drove in about 300m watching an orange lump in a small tuft of tall grass. Pulled up about 30m from it and went over to see just what it was as it hadn't moved a millimetre the whole time. I didn't take a rifle as I didn't believe it could be a fox at this point. When I was four or five meters from it, the fox popped it's head up, clocked me, and bolted down the hill

Went for a look and it was feasting on the fresh front leg of a grey 'roo. Got caught up in the moment I guess. Checked later and the leg was gone. My mate walked his dog the rest of the way hoping he might direct us to the rest of the 'roo but didn't hit anything. The fox must've carried his prize a very long way to choose to snack down in the middle of a large paddock with virtually no cover for hundreds of meters in any direction. The week before we saw an animal chasing a pack of 'roos across another paddock about 300m away in the trees. I grabbed the scoped rifle but the setting sun totally obliterated the view so we couldn't make out what it was. Certainly didn't look like the 'roos running ahead of it. No idea what it was but now finding fresh 'roo bits without hearing any shooting has me concerned that there might be a dog around.

[Lazarus]

Ok, I'm no expert but this is my take on it.

I took up daytime whistling foxes about 9 or 10 years ago. I like the challenge. I'm into hunting, not score boards. So I even pass up the odd shot to ensure good animal welfare.

At first I used my 22 lr and after loosing a couple (chest shot) realised it just was not enough gun.


I considered the 22 mag but soon dismissed it and bought a 223. Never looked back. Only one wounded since.
I never head shoot. He only has to turn his head or you miss judge range or tragectory and you miss or wound. This happened to a cat I shot many, many years ago. Hit the jaw. Finished it off about 3 days later. Not happy Jan.

I always keep in mind, in the field I don't shoot as well as on the bench. IMO this applies to most. We over estimate our ability, and often push the boundaries regarding range. Easy to miss judge range too.

So, if you decided to only chest shot what is the effective range? Remember you need a bit up your sleeve for shots like you have mentioned.

IMO for foxes.

22lr about 60 yards
22 mag about 80-90 yards
223/222 about 250 yards easy, not that I would ever attempt such a shot. About 170 is my limit in the field.

Yes, they are conservative but IMO you need to be.

Why would you use a 22 mag, sure cheap ammo. But if you reload so is the 222 or 223. You could use both and keep the 22mag for small blocks or reload low velocity loads for small bocks as I do.
I'm not knocking the 22 mag. It has its place, and plenty of fans, but its limitations also. (like all chamberings)

I know you weren't having a go OB, but for the record, I let far more go than those I shoot.
I want the critters I take to not even know they're gone.

Even if there's a slight doubt, there's always next time.
I'm well and truly old enough to know my capabilities don't come close to my ambitions

[bladeracer]

I know you weren't having a go OB, but for the record, I let far more go than those I shoot.
I want the critters I take to not even know they're gone.

Even if there's a slight doubt, there's always next time.
I'm well and truly old enough to know my capabilities don't come close to my ambitions

Same here, I try to avoid rushed shots.

[NTSOG]

bladeracer: "If you have a fatal shot but don't disrupt the major systems the animal can run a long way before realising it's dead."

Yes, I've seen that even with the .222. I found a partially 'unzipped' vixen I had shot angling down through the chest from the front one evening. She was about 250 yards from where I shot her. Adrenalin is a powerful chemical - until it runs out. How she could run with her 'plumbing' dangling between her legs beats me.

As for horses my wife's horses don't seem fussed by the sound of the CF when they're a couple of paddocks away, but I'll not take a chance with them in the next paddock, especially with the fees charged by vets if they spooked and ran through a fence. My cattle don't give a damn about my shooting to the point they'll come to stand around and have a look if I'm checking zero from a bench in the daylight. My 'herd' of kangaroos just keep eating my grass at night regardless of any gunshots.

Jim

[animalpest]

If you hit the foxes in the guts rather than the spine, it could have been a problem regardless of whether it was a .22 magnum or a .223. Poor shooting should not be rectified by increased gunpowder.

[NTSOG]

animalpest: "If you hit the foxes in the guts rather than the spine, it could have been a problem regardless of whether it was a .22 magnum or a .223."

I'm interested to hear from Oldbloke why he doesn't like to shoot foxes from front-on through the chest. He's commented to that effect a couple of times in different posts. The vixen I mentioned that ran 250 yards was hit mid-upper chest from directly in front. I was shooting down at her - I was sitting about 6 feet higher on the wall of a dam. In theory I would have expected the bullet to hit either lungs, heart or both [and cause her to immediately drop dead] before entering the hindgut and opening up the abdomen - or is it that bullets do strange things upon impact that can never be predicted?

Jim

[Oldbloke]

animalpest: "If you hit the foxes in the guts rather than the spine, it could have been a problem regardless of whether it was a .22 magnum or a .223."

I'm interested to hear from Oldbloke why he doesn't like to shoot foxes from front-on through the chest. He's commented to that effect a couple of times in different posts. The vixen I mentioned that ran 250 yards was hit mid-upper chest from directly in front. I was shooting down at her - I was sitting about 6 feet higher on the wall of a dam. In theory I would have expected the bullet to hit either lungs, heart or both [and cause her to immediately drop dead] before entering the hindgut and opening up the abdomen - or is it that bullets do strange things upon impact that can never be predicted?

Jim

Jim, I chest shoot from any direction mate. Must be someone else that said that. I am conservative with distance. Simply because of limitations in the field.

[bladeracer]

I'm interested to hear from Oldbloke why he doesn't like to shoot foxes from front-on through the chest. He's commented to that effect a couple of times in different posts. The vixen I mentioned that ran 250 yards was hit mid-upper chest from directly in front. I was shooting down at her - I was sitting about 6 feet higher on the wall of a dam. In theory I would have expected the bullet to hit either lungs, heart or both [and cause her to immediately drop dead] before entering the hindgut and opening up the abdomen - or is it that bullets do strange things upon impact that can never be predicted?

Jim

I avoid front on chest shots. My mum's chihuahua took a .22LR bullet into the middle of his chest, travelling the length of his body and exiting beside the root of his tail. No surgery, no lasting effects, but the pain must've been horrendous for a few weeks. He went on to live a long life.

Just look at bullets fired into ballistic gelatine. Even without hitting any structures the bullets still deflect in various directions based on how they deform or tumble, nothing is guaranteed, then throw in blood vessels, bones, angles, and varying densities of musculature and the whole process becomes chaos. Try for the shortest path into the vital organs to minimise any deflection.

[NTSOG]

I beg your pardon Oldbloke. Maybe it was Blade racer who made the comment which stuck in my mind.

Jim

[Oldbloke]

I beg your pardon Oldbloke. Maybe it was Blade racer who made the comment which stuck in my mind.

Jim

Lol. That's ok. Pretty rare, but I also make mistakes. Lol. Just ask my wife.

[bladeracer]

I beg your pardon Oldbloke. Maybe it was Blade racer who made the comment which stuck in my mind.

Jim

I did take a front chest shot on a fox a couple years ago. I had gotten out pre-dawn and positioned myself alongside a fence post as I'd seen the foxes patrolling along the creek 150m away at the bottom. Eventually one appears but instead of bouncing around the various tufts of grass where the rabbits were hanging out as it had been doing on previous mornings, it was only interested in examining the grass at the base of the fence posts...on the other side of the fence, and heading toward me. It finally ducked through the fence onto my side and continued toward me until I fired at about 30m or so. Shooting downhill, the bullet went in below the throat and opened the animal up from neck to nuts, dumping everything in a mess. It turned and ran about thirty meters before keeling over empty.

[Die Judicii]

100_5847.JPG (721.33 KiB) Viewed 4208 times

Mate,,, I dunno about foxes, but this dog was shot approx 2am (by memory) and for all intents and purposes appeared to be dead, as it never moved after the initial collapse.
Shot with a 22/250 ballistic tip,,,,,,, it took out the entire spine plus (big enough for my fist to get lost in the hole.
At sun up when I went to retrieve it,, it lifted its head and snarled at me.
Shot again at 20 meters through the chest,,,, seemed to have done the job.
I nudged it with the boot and it was "lifeless"
I rolled it over to see what sex it was, and then walked back to get my ute.
As I pulled up alongside,, it again lifted its head and snarled at the ute wheel.
Shot a 3rd time,,,,,, through the back of the head finally took all signs of life from it.
The pic doesn't show all detail,, but if you PM me a phone # Ill send you the pic on my phone that really shows the extent of the wound.
My Doctor (an avid shooter) has seen the phone pic and was at a loss to explain how something could still survive with the first shot for 5 hours.

[Elmer]

The 22mag is a great little round and i reckon if you were using 40gn jhps the chances of Reynard running off would be kept to a minimum.
Past 100 the 30 grainers IMO would be a bit light...you need more down range energy from a heavier bullet than the speed of a light one

[Boundry Rider]

Foxes can often throw the rule book out the window.
They do have a peculiar way of presenting sometimes, I took one with a 130Y shot using a .223 into the chest once only to find it was pausing to look back at me (from chewing fleas off its back) whilst sitting. As a result my shot went through the spine leaving it in two pieces, front end and rear end.

[bigpete]

Honestly can't recall ever having any problems dropping foxes with a 22wmr, regardless of ammo,that wasn't directly related to poor shot placement

[MtnMan]

100_5847.JPG

Mate,,, I dunno about foxes, but this dog was shot approx 2am (by memory) and for all intents and purposes appeared to be dead, as it never moved after the initial collapse.
Shot with a 22/250 ballistic tip,,,,,,, it took out the entire spine plus (big enough for my fist to get lost in the hole.
At sun up when I went to retrieve it,, it lifted its head and snarled at me.
Shot again at 20 meters through the chest,,,, seemed to have done the job.
I nudged it with the boot and it was "lifeless"
I rolled it over to see what sex it was, and then walked back to get my ute.
As I pulled up alongside,, it again lifted its head and snarled at the ute wheel.
Shot a 3rd time,,,,,, through the back of the head finally took all signs of life from it.
The pic doesn't show all detail,, but if you PM me a phone # Ill send you the pic on my phone that really shows the extent of the wound.
My Doctor (an avid shooter) has seen the phone pic and was at a loss to explain how something could still survive with the first shot for 5 hours.

On account that it refused to die and got all snarly, I'm guessing it was female when you checked what sex it was?

[Die Judicii]

On account that it refused to die and got all snarly, I'm guessing it was female when you checked what sex it was?

Spot on Mate, it was a bitch.
She had no pups though,,, she was completely dry.

[NTSOG]

G'day All,

I've been off-line for a little while due to the weather, cows calving and my wife being 'double-barreled' by her horse which resulted in her broken arm having to be repaired by a surgeon, in turn leading to me being very busy doing all the farm and house work.

I have found the reason for all the spine shots: the PARD 008 NV sight I use on my .22 Magnum is mounted on a ZB Lite Pro Universal mount from the UK replacing the poorly made PARD mount:

https://zb-mounts.co.uk/wp-content/uplo ... rsal-s.png

The ZB mount has two turrets as can be seen. Due to the need for correct eye-relief I [and others] have mounted the ZB backwards. It works very well. The picture shows the ZB base as it would be seen looking back to the breech from the muzzle on my rifle. As can be seen the two turrets [elevation on the right in the picture and windage on the left] protrude some distance. After shooting two more foxes, one at 60 yards [again hit in the spine though I aimed mid-body] and the other [at 40 yards facing me] in the nose, though I aimed at mid-chest I reviewed all the videos I had and then checked the rifle/scope combination. I found that the elevation turret was rotated plus 4.5" over the nominal 100 yard zero I had originally set off the bench. I realised that the elevation turret was being rotated as I slung and unslung the rifle off my right shoulder, with the turret rubbing/dragging on my jacket. It's a 'click-set' turret, but cannot be locked. The windage turret is somewhat protected by the protrusion of the bolt and was not affected. It may be that the elevation turret was being rotated plus and minus each time I slung/unslung the rifle off my right shoulder which added to my confusion. Regardless it's now wrapped in tape to stop accidental rotation and subsequent shots on foxes with the Hornady V-Max have all hit where I actually aimed them with the desired results.

Jim