.22 or .223 + for my first rifle (for rabbit/fox hunting)?

Varminting and vertebrate pest control. Small game, hunting feral goats, foxes, dogs, cats, rabbits etc.

Re: .22 or .223 + for my first rifle (for rabbit/fox hunting

Post by bladeracer » 01 Aug 2016, 6:09 am

wade06 wrote:I would say get a .22lr first up.

Another option is a 22 WMR. At HV it shoots flatter and harder than the 22lr plus you can still shoot subsonic ammo (winchester makes a 45 grain WMR round, not sure about others). That said the 22 WMR rounds will be considerably dearer than a 22lr and you don't have many choices.

Good luck :-)



Considering the cost of shooting WMR I don't see any value in it, get a .223 and you can load it down to subsonic and still have better accuracy than the WMR or LR. You can regularly find deals on bulk .224 bullets around 12-15 cents each (bought 600 55gn SP's a few weeks ago for $85) which are awesome value for low-velocity plinking or hunting ammo. Cast your own bullets and it's barely any more expensive than a lot of .22LR ammo (a Lee mould is $40, 10kg of lead shot is $90 and will make 3000 50gn bullets).
I use Hornady ZMax for low-velocity fodder in .204 (my current stock were only 18 cents each when I got them last year on special). With a primer and 2-3 cents worth of Trailboss it's cheaper than the cheapest WMR ammo I've seen in a while. I've shot them down to 700fps.
I just wish Speer would bring back their 600 pack of 7mm 110gn TNT's for $240 :-(
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Re: .22 or .223 + for my first rifle (for rabbit/fox hunting

Post by wade06 » 01 Aug 2016, 9:47 am

Bladeracer, I have just got a .22lr but will be getting a centrefire down the track for roos, foxes, goats and small deer. I think a .243 will will be the most versatile for me because it can shoot from 55gr up to 100gr bullets. I won't shoot much so reloading is probably out of the question. Whats the cost of getting setup then whats the cost per round typically? Cheers
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Re: .22 or .223 + for my first rifle (for rabbit/fox hunting

Post by on_one_wheel » 01 Aug 2016, 10:06 am

I no longer use a .22 for hunting foxes.

If one presents itself and it's well below 100 yards I MIGHT have a crack with the .22 but shot placement is absolutely critical.
You need to make it a shot placed with surgical precision to the brain not just the head as a shot to the jaw, face or neck will leave the fox suffering.
Heart lung work at close range front on but a shoulder shot from the side often won't penetrate well enough.

For those reasons I keep the .22 for rabbits and use the .223 or bigger on foxes.

While a .22 makes sense as a first firearm for lots of reasons, there is nothing wrong with a .223 as a first... they are lovely to shoot and open you options up for what you can hunt.

That's my 2 cents.
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Re: .22 or .223 + for my first rifle (for rabbit/fox hunting

Post by happyhunter » 01 Aug 2016, 10:07 am

Best advice on here is to get the 22LR.
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Re: .22 or .223 + for my first rifle (for rabbit/fox hunting

Post by bladeracer » 01 Aug 2016, 12:17 pm

wade06 wrote:Bladeracer, I have just got a .22lr but will be getting a centrefire down the track for roos, foxes, goats and small deer. I think a .243 will will be the most versatile for me because it can shoot from 55gr up to 100gr bullets. I won't shoot much so reloading is probably out of the question. Whats the cost of getting setup then whats the cost per round typically? Cheers


I had a BSA in .243 but it had a heavy barrel and was a pain to lug about in the bush. I still have .243 bullets I bought in 1983 ($16.10 per 100 for Hornady 75gn HP) so I will have to get a .243 again soon so as not to waste them ;-)
I like .243 but for me it's on the light side for anything bigger than foxes. I prefer the 6.5x55mm for those mid-sized animals but it's a bit heavy for varminting.

When I learned to load I just used a LeeLoader in a vice and a powder scale, probably under $100 I'd guess now. There was a time when military ammo was cheap so you could buy that, pull the FMJ's and put hunting bullets in their place without any reloading equipment. 6.5x55mm I used to file the points off the military ammo then drill a hole into the nose.

Now I'm using the Lee Challenger Breech Lock single-stage press. They do them in a complete starter kit at a pretty decent price.
You would also need a set of dies for each chambering you load for.
And you'll need a vernier caliper to measure case length and overall lengths.
Be aware though that reloading is the same as buying guns, you will never have enough guns or reloading equipment :-)
Rather than think you're reloading to save money it's more sensible to think you're reloading so you can do a lot more shooting for the same amount of money.

.223 and .308 are the cheapest to load for by a good margin due to the price of the brass and availability of bulk bullets.
I think many people buy some factory ammo and then reload the brass. I prefer to buy new brass and start fresh. You're looking at anywhere from $50 to $150 per 100 for common brass, I've seen some custom brass for US$85 _each_ for some of the exotic nitro cartridges though.
Primers are about $75 per 1000.
Powders run around $45 per 500gms (7700gns) from ADI.
Bullets can run around $40 to $150 per 100, although some of the VLD target bullets can be $5 a piece. You can often find bulk deals on the more common bullets though as I mentioned earlier.

For .243 you could buy that kit and dies for about $300, and load your first 100 rounds for under $150 I'd guess, much less if you buy cheaper brass and bulk bullets. Now that you own the brass, you're only paying for bullets, powder and primers so your ammo will be under $100 per 100 rounds for at least the next 2000 rounds. You should get twenty loads or more out of the brass if you don't push them really hard.

In the first four months of owning it I put 460 rounds though my .204, nearly $1000 worth at factory prices. I think just that one calibre easily paid the cost of the reloading gear within a year - although I doubt I would do anywhere near as much shooting if I had to pay factory prices for my ammo. Much of that was trying a lot of different bullets though to find which I like best. I now use Hornady NTX 24gn on 30.0gns of AR2206H at 4400fps, Sierra BlitzKing 39gn on 28.1gn of AR2206H at 3780fps, and Hornady ZMax 32gn on 4.5gn of Trailboss at 1600fps and 8.5gn at 2400fps. Even at 2400fps these are very easy on the ears. I strongly recommend keeping separate brass for low-pressure loads, don't mix it in with your high-pressure stuff.

The breech lock is brilliant, means you don't have to unscrew the dies, just a third of a turn and they come out just like an artillery gun breech. I use the optional lock ring Eliminators as well but at $25 a pair they get expensive if you have a lot of dies - it seems I have $400 worth of these Eliminators already(!).
Personally I don't use a powder thrower or a scale. I use a GemPro 250 electronic scale accurate to 0.01 of a grain, expensive but awesome - almost $300 from memory. And a powder trickler for fine weighing.
I also have the Breech Lock Hand Press for when I don't want to sit at the desk.
I only neck size using the Lee Collet dies which are about $60 a set I think, you don't need to lube the cases with the collet dies. I use the collet die to deprime and neck size, and the bullet seating die to seat the bullet. The shell holders usually come with the die sets. I have full-length dies for each calibre as you never know when you might need to bump the shoulder back but I don't think I've used any of them yet. I also have the Factory Crimp dies but I haven't used those either yet. Some of the Collet dies don't seem popular here so I've had to get a few directly from the US (including the .303 dies!).
I also use Lee's Quick Trim Dies which are about $25 for each calibre. Just push the case up into the die, turn the handle on top a couple times to trim and deburr it and they're done.

If you cast your own bullets then the price plummets. I can cast 850 8mm 180gn bullets out of $90 worth of lead, and shooting them at 1400fps without gas checks on 14.0gn of TrailBoss costs under 30 cents a shot. I punched a 160gn cast lead bullet through 8mm steel plate at 100 yards from my 8x57mm Mauser at over 2500fps, but that was gas-checked with high tin content which pushes the price up. In .224 that same $90 worth of lead makes more than 3000 50gn bullets.
Last edited by bladeracer on 02 Aug 2016, 1:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: .22 or .223 + for my first rifle (for rabbit/fox hunting

Post by bladeracer » 01 Aug 2016, 12:25 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:I no longer use a .22 for hunting foxes.

If one presents itself and it's well below 100 yards I MIGHT have a crack with the .22 but shot placement is absolutely critical.
You need to make it a shot placed with surgical precision to the brain not just the head as a shot to the jaw, face or neck will leave the fox suffering.
Heart lung work at close range front on but a shoulder shot from the side often won't penetrate well enough.

For those reasons I keep the .22 for rabbits and use the .223 or bigger on foxes.

While a .22 makes sense as a first firearm for lots of reasons, there is nothing wrong with a .223 as a first... they are lovely to shoot and open you options up for what you can hunt.

That's my 2 cents.


I agree, I think .22LR is barely adequate for consistent one-shot clean kills even on rabbits, especially in the hands of a new shooter. I've never even considered trying to take foxes with it. .22 WMR is good for foxes though, at least it was when it was cheaper to shoot it than nowadays.
The best thing about .22LR is just the amount of shooting you can do per dollar, and fairly quietly. Spending a day spitting a 500-round brick downrange at varying ranges will teach you a lot for very little cost.
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