Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill2020

Questions about New South Wales gun and ammunition laws. NSW Firearms Act 1996.

Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill2020

Post by Bugman » 16 May 2020, 10:56 am

I have been reading a copy of this proposed amendment (for NSW) and also talking to people involved with input to it (from the shooters side) and it would appear that IF it went through in it's proposed form, then there will be significant problems for the average gun owner.
Example: If you change the trigger from the one installed in the makers factory to say a Timney, you would be breaking the law (under the proposed legislation).
Same with building and F- Class target rifle, the same with installing a Volquartsen kit into your Ruger MK IV .22 pistol. etc etc.
Please understand, that these facts and examples are not of my own but from people i come in contact with, who are directly in the know of this proposed legislation. If it went through in NSW under a Liberal coalition, then even more dangerous under a Labor left government in other states.
I hope it does not go through and I guess time will tell.
It certainly requires proper clarification. :?
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by womble » 16 May 2020, 1:49 pm

The way i read it, Technically it’s not a problem, unless you manufactured the part yourself.
But yes It certainly affords ground for police to assert their “reasonable suspicion” and do whatever they like.
They probably could seize the owners manual a firearm came with and use that as evidence against you if they wanted to.
Anything in your browser history. Kinda scary, somewhat Orwellian
I’m no expert though.
They’re faced with a problem that’s going to be very hard to police unless they have total access to everything. Under suspicion you’d have zero rights.
Bit like being licenced to drive a car, but you better not understand how that car works.
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by Member-Deleted » 16 May 2020, 2:59 pm

https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/bills/59 ... 4833c68404

Like a lot of legislation these days, the drafting leaves a lot to the imagination. It will need clarification. Unfortunately, that will be done by the first few unlucky punters who go to trial.

It appears it is aimed at crims who manufacture guns on the sly, and not licenced LAFOs who are modifying an existing licenced firearm, so I wouldn't be too concerned about swapping in a Timney trigger - rerplacement of an existing part with another part you purchased is not manufacturing.

I'd be more worried about the proposed new criminal offence of having "prohibited knowledge".

"a person takes part in the manufacture of a firearm or firearm part if—
(a) ...
(b) ..., or
(c) ... or
(d) without limiting paragraph (a)—the person possesses a firearm precursor for the purposes of manufacturing a firearm or firearm part.
(3) In this section and in section 51K— firearm precursor means any object, device, substance, material or document used or capable of being used in the process of manufacturing a firearm or firearm part, including (but not limited to) the following—
(a) ...,
(b) ...,
(c) digital blueprints within the meaning of section 51F,
(d) computer software or plans
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by AussieCapitalist » 16 May 2020, 3:26 pm

This proposed bill is crazy. Prohibited knowledge? Since when is mere knowledge prohibited? That is the definition of mind control. There was pub talk with my dad and his mates when I was a lad about having the knowledge to make an SLR automatic. Having the knowledge and doing something are completely different things. Same could be said for a suppressor. They would not be hard to make at all, but simply knowing how to do something and actually doing it is not the same thing.
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by Patriot » 16 May 2020, 3:31 pm

I’m not a lawyer but I think prohibited knowledge would be things like say technical specs for making explosives...maybe?
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by Member-Deleted » 16 May 2020, 4:56 pm

I was using the term 'prohibited knowledge' loosely - the new offence is not actually called that, it's just what it includes.... you're effectively deemed to be manufacturing a firearm if you possess a document e.g. plans or blueprints or instructions about how to make one, for the purposes of making one.

so I suppose they'd have to prove you had the info about how to make something for the reason of wanting to use it in future to make that thing, rather than just general knowledge
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by womble » 16 May 2020, 7:24 pm

I do agree with your voice of reason BangBang
It’s just..
Is it too much of a stretch for this legislation to be applied unreasonably to an innocent party. If they wanted to make your life miserable.
Because it happens.
Who dose’nt own a blown up schematic diagram of their firearms components. It came with the purchase.
Can i own an ak-47 or colt 45 mouse pad.
Within the realms of reason yes. But possibly not how the legislation can be interpreted, or applied by a disgruntled enforcer
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by womble » 16 May 2020, 7:36 pm

I’m pretty sure BladeRacer could build a fully functional Bren gun out of old washing machines.
And it’s the sort of thing he would do.

Thanks for your reply in that other post Blade dude.
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by Nigel » 17 May 2020, 4:36 pm

Member-Deleted wrote:It appears it is aimed at crims who manufacture guns on the sly, and not licenced LAFOs who are modifying an existing licenced firearm, so I wouldn't be too concerned about swapping in a Timney trigger - rerplacement of an existing part with another part you purchased is not manufacturing.

Attitudes like this are the reason legislators are able to implement these terrible, poorly defined, dragnet laws that criminalize the normal activities of large numbers of law abiding citizens as a side effect of enabling easy prosecution of small numbers of criminals.

Are you really OK with laws that technically make every day activities of firearm owners into offences that carry multi-decade prison sentences as possible punishments.

Some of the things that people are worried about with the proposed amendment are already reality in NSW. Section 50A of the Firearms Act 1996 (NSW) creates the offence of unathorised manufacture of firearms. That section states that 'manufacture' of firearms includes "assemble a firearm from firearm parts". The definition of 'firearm part' in the Act includes, amongst other things, 'barrel', 'receiver', 'trigger mechanism', 'pistol slide' and 'frame'.

Anyone who assembles a semi-automatic pistol after disassembling it for cleaning or maintenance is technically committing an offence punishable by a maximum of 20 years imprisonment.

Anyone who changes the barrel on a CZ 455/457 in accordance with the user manual is technically committing an offence punishable by up to 10 years imprisonment.

Are people really OK with this just because they know the laws were enacted to target real criminals and they are unlikely to be charged?
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by Member-Deleted » 17 May 2020, 9:09 pm

lol Nigel. Relax champ, you'll live longer. Don't cherry pick what you quote... where did I say I was ok with it?? Read my opening couple of sentences, the proposed legislation is poorly drafted.

However, the OP was concerned with the example of falling foul of the law if he swapped out the trigger for a Timney. For mine, that is probably not a lot to worry about. If you swap the oil filter in your car with a new or different one, you haven't manufactured the car.
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by CAVEMAN » 17 May 2020, 9:23 pm

Member-Deleted wrote:lol Nigel. Relax champ, you'll live longer. Don't cherry pick what you quote... where did I say I was ok with it?? Read my opening couple of sentences, the proposed legislation is poorly drafted.

However, the OP was concerned with the example of falling foul of the law if he swapped out the trigger for a Timney. For mine, that is probably not a lot to worry about. If you swap the oil filter in your car with a new or different one, you haven't manufactured the car.


There seems to be allot of the tinfoil hat brigade around lately, i think the big C word might have mad some people a tad paranoid. Ithink we all need to get back to the pub, might help us all out.
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by Bugman » 18 May 2020, 8:20 am

Did someone mention pub? Count me in.
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by mchughcb » 17 Aug 2020, 10:36 pm

So I put im my submission, checked there was about 75 odd public submissions.

Pathetic given Shoebridge was on the committee.
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by on_one_wheel » 18 Aug 2020, 1:15 pm

Im sure the SSAA will be working hard behind the scenes to have this amended before it's passed. :sarcasm:

Their like a bull with no horns and no balls... :thumbsup:
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by Bugman » 18 Aug 2020, 5:31 pm

Got an email from them yesterday, outlining their concerns and how they should addressed etc. I was a bit constipated at the time of reading, but all good now.
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by mchughcb » 18 Aug 2020, 7:51 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:Im sure the SSAA will be working hard behind the scenes to have this amended before it's passed. :sarcasm:

Their like a bull with no horns and no balls... :thumbsup:


Did you put in a submission too?
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by boingk » 18 Aug 2020, 8:50 pm

How do you submit against this? It looks ridiculous and would incriminate most lawful firearms owners.
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by on_one_wheel » 18 Aug 2020, 9:03 pm

mchughcb wrote:
on_one_wheel wrote:Im sure the SSAA will be working hard behind the scenes to have this amended before it's passed. :sarcasm:

Their like a bull with no horns and no balls... :thumbsup:


Did you put in a submission too?


No, that's what I pay 2 firearm lobby groups to do on my behalf. :lol:
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by boingk » 18 Aug 2020, 10:13 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:No, that's what I pay 2 firearm lobby groups to do on my behalf. :lol:


Paying someone to advocate for you is ludicrous. Sorry mate but you need to chip in on a personal level.

Apologies in advance if this was in jest. I also know the pain of governing bodies who fail you.
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by mchughcb » 19 Aug 2020, 11:11 am

on_one_wheel wrote:
mchughcb wrote:
on_one_wheel wrote:Im sure the SSAA will be working hard behind the scenes to have this amended before it's passed. :sarcasm:

Their like a bull with no horns and no balls... :thumbsup:


Did you put in a submission too?


No, that's what I pay 2 firearm lobby groups to do on my behalf. :lol:


Too late now as you've not submitted anything.

1. Lobby groups or industry bodies may propose something you don't agree with.
2. When a minister looks at submissions, 10,000 private submissions about something they are not happy about carries far more weight than a lobby group with 120,000 members. The former can get his arse voted out. The later is an annoyance.
3. People can write essays on forums and facebooks but can't be bothered to spend 1 hour to put a submission no matter how bad or poorly worded in.

Part of the Game Regulations in Victoria has my submission copied word for word in it. Not from some peak body like the SSAA, FGA or ADA. So waiting for somebody "else" to do it, then is like complaining the politicians you get when you never voted.
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by No1_49er » 19 Aug 2020, 11:22 am

on_one_wheel wrote:
mchughcb wrote:
on_one_wheel wrote:Im sure the SSAA will be working hard behind the scenes to have this amended before it's passed. :sarcasm:

Their like a bull with no horns and no balls... :thumbsup:


Did you put in a submission too?


No, that's what I pay 2 firearm lobby groups to do on my behalf. :lol:

Seems to me that you too are someone with no horns or balls.
A classic case of "not my f^<king job". And to re-post the sarcasm, are you not suggesting that SSAA did nothing? If that is the case, then it really is up to you to speak "on your own behalf", else STFU when it doesn't go the way you would like.
Proud member of "the powerful gun lobby" of Australia :)
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by on_one_wheel » 19 Aug 2020, 1:33 pm

Oh ouch.... my feelings :lol:
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Re: Firearms & Weapons Legislation Amendment (criminal) Bill

Post by mchughcb » 26 Aug 2020, 5:36 pm

Good to know its received and I will make my submission public.

2020_NSW_Firearm_Bill_Submission.JPG
2020_NSW_Firearm_Bill_Submission.JPG (57.13 KiB) Viewed 3943 times
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