Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Questions about New South Wales gun and ammunition laws. NSW Firearms Act 1996.

Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by Johnny Jigsaw » 28 Dec 2020, 10:16 am

Hi my friends

I am pretty new to all of this and would like some advice if possible.

I'm in the process of acquiring and installing a safe in a cupboard under the stairs. The floor is concrete which is great but the wall behind is chipboard with no studs. it is a very tight compartment so it is almost impossible for someone to get behind it.

If I bolt this safe to the ground and have it against the chipboard do you think this will be passable?
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by yoshie » 31 Dec 2020, 5:36 pm

As long as its bolted down it compiles. If you get it inspected the officer will give it a wiggle, if it wiggles too much they won't pass it or tell you to fix it. They might want to make sure the bolt size at least minimum size. I've have 4 inspections in 15 years and haven't had a problem.
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by bladeracer » 31 Dec 2020, 5:45 pm

Johnny Jigsaw wrote:Hi my friends

I am pretty new to all of this and would like some advice if possible.

I'm in the process of acquiring and installing a safe in a cupboard under the stairs. The floor is concrete which is great but the wall behind is chipboard with no studs. it is a very tight compartment so it is almost impossible for someone to get behind it.

If I bolt this safe to the ground and have it against the chipboard do you think this will be passable?


As long as it securely fixed to the structure it'll be fine.
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by djmm » 31 Dec 2020, 6:25 pm

Not to threadjack but on same note, if my house is on concrete slab, can we bolt the safe on the floor but leaving some gaps between the back of safe and the wall? (Around 2cm)

My understanding is you only need it flush if you bolt it on wall stud,but on ground it doesn't have to.
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by pomemax » 01 Jan 2021, 10:28 am

My safe is Bolted to the concrete and 100 mm from the wall Passed ok
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by djmm » 01 Jan 2021, 3:27 pm

Thanks for clarifying
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by Lsfan » 01 Jan 2021, 8:41 pm

Hi all, just signed up so thought I would contribute. I am awaiting my PTA’s for first rifles and have had my safe sitting for months now. Mine is installed in a first floor level of my house and bolted to particle board floor and also to studs. I recall that this is allowed where there is no concrete present. For concrete I’m sure you only need bolting to the floor but There is a minimum bolt size and 4 required I thought?
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by yoshie » 03 Jan 2021, 5:54 am

Lsfan wrote:Hi all, just signed up so thought I would contribute. I am awaiting my PTA’s for first rifles and have had my safe sitting for months now. Mine is installed in a first floor level of my house and bolted to particle board floor and also to studs. I recall that this is allowed where there is no concrete present. For concrete I’m sure you only need bolting to the floor but There is a minimum bolt size and 4 required I thought?


It varies state to state, QLD doesn't specifically list a size just securely bolted down, ACT says 10mm diameter and 70mm long 'Dyna' type bolt in masonry brick or concrete and 8mm diameter 50mm long 'coach' type bolt in wood and minimum of 2 bolts
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by djmm » 04 Jan 2021, 4:28 pm

Sorry to bring this topic up again, I spoke to the safe shop about installation and the person was adamant that even if I anchored the safe onto concrete floor, it still needs to be flush against the wall.

From reading the guideline (copy and pasted below):

When mounted onto brick, stone or concrete, it should be attached by at least four (4) masonry anchors 90mm in
length and 10mm in diameter internally fitted through holes in the rear and/or base of the container, securing it to the
floor and/or wall
. The safe should be flush against the floor and/or wall.
* When mounted onto main wall studs, it should be fitted flush against the wall and secured to the wall studs and/or
floor joists by four (4) galvanized hexagon head coach screws, not less than 65mm in length and 8mm in diameter.


So my understanding is, if it is mounted to concrete floor slab with 4 anchors, as long as there is no gap on the floor, it will be acceptable even if it's not flush to the wall. That's how I understand it but the guy was persistent... Also by common sense, even if you try to jemmy it from the gap, my plaster wall break first before there is even a remote chance for the safe to wiggle.
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by Lsfan » 04 Jan 2021, 5:19 pm

djmm wrote:Sorry to bring this topic up again, I spoke to the safe shop about installation and the person was adamant that even if I anchored the safe onto concrete floor, it still needs to be flush against the wall.

From reading the guideline (copy and pasted below):

When mounted onto brick, stone or concrete, it should be attached by at least four (4) masonry anchors 90mm in
length and 10mm in diameter internally fitted through holes in the rear and/or base of the container, securing it to the
floor and/or wall
. The safe should be flush against the floor and/or wall.
* When mounted onto main wall studs, it should be fitted flush against the wall and secured to the wall studs and/or
floor joists by four (4) galvanized hexagon head coach screws, not less than 65mm in length and 8mm in diameter.


So my understanding is, if it is mounted to concrete floor slab with 4 anchors, as long as there is no gap on the floor, it will be acceptable even if it's not flush to the wall. That's how I understand it but the guy was persistent... Also by common sense, even if you try to jemmy it from the gap, my plaster wall break first before there is even a remote chance for the safe to wiggle.


I would imagine the reference to flush is so there is no access for someone to cut the bolts, eg. it it was packed off the floor. The fact it says and/or seems to apply to the option you choose, in your case floor bolting and presumably you would have it flush with the concrete. In my opinion having a gap would still be compliant with the wording. The only thing would be that it potentially enables a strap or chain to be wrapped around it and pulled out. Saw it done in a movie!
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by djmm » 04 Jan 2021, 6:00 pm

Yeah that makes perfect sense re. Easily cutting the bolts if they're visible from gap.

I guess I'll stop worrying about the gap then as it does still meet the requirements. Just sometimes I tend to overdo things to be absolutely sure.
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by pomemax » 04 Jan 2021, 10:05 pm

There is nothing wrong with doing more than you should IT make you feel better , the regulations are the min you have to do not the max
What make of safe are you going to buy ..
The line you look at is the securing it to the floor AND/OR wall. The safe should be flush against the floor AND/OR wall.
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by djmm » 05 Jan 2021, 7:41 am

The pistol safe is CMI but rifle is Lokaway. The Lokaway is small 7 (more like 3) rifle one. I'm aware there is safe that is specced for both rifle and gun but they're way too heavy and big
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by dpskipper » 06 Jan 2021, 10:45 am

djmm wrote:The pistol safe is CMI


Nice safe mate! :drinks:
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by djmm » 06 Jan 2021, 12:25 pm

Thanks. Once off pain (until the time to purchase firearms lol)
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by Rider888 » 08 Jan 2021, 12:24 pm

djmm wrote:Not to threadjack but on same note, if my house is on concrete slab, can we bolt the safe on the floor but leaving some gaps between the back of safe and the wall? (Around 2cm)

My understanding is you only need it flush if you bolt it on wall stud,but on ground it doesn't have to.


Correct. Mine is not flushed against any wall
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by Johnny Jigsaw » 08 Jan 2021, 3:15 pm

Thanks guys for all your great feed back. I’ve attached a picture of where I want to install it. There are gaps on the sides but I will make sure it is bolted down so it can’t move. Hope it will be fine if inspected. This is under the stairs
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by dpskipper » 08 Jan 2021, 4:13 pm

Johnny Jigsaw wrote:This is under the stairs


Looks good, but do be aware under the stairs is a very common place people put safes - I have one there myself. A locksmith told me once that the 3 most common places people put safes (and consequently the first 3 places thieves look for safes) are:
1. Master bedroom
2. Walk in wardrobe
3. under the stairs

If your fine with that, then right on.. However don't think your being super sneaky putting your safe under the stairs, its a very common "hiding" spot.

Enjoy the safe :)
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by Johnny Jigsaw » 08 Jan 2021, 5:15 pm

Thanks mate.
I will take note of that and see if I can reassess
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by dpskipper » 08 Jan 2021, 5:29 pm

Johnny Jigsaw wrote:Thanks mate.
I will take note of that and see if I can reassess


If you've got your heart set on putting it there then maybe consider shoving some stuff in front of the safe to hide it? Pile up some old shoeboxes or something... Mindful that it'll be a pain to access the safe quickly.

I had a long conversation with my locksmith when I got my safe installed and the conclusion pretty much was that gun safes are pretty big and unless you have a bunker behind a fake bookshelf, you'll never truly hide it like you can with smaller jewelry / document safes.

For example, the locksmith said he personally had a small safe under the kitchen sink, bolted to floor of the kitchen cabinet. Not the most secure mounting ever, but certainly the last place anyone would look for a safe.
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by Lsfan » 08 Jan 2021, 6:14 pm

Johnny Jigsaw wrote:Thanks guys for all your great feed back. I’ve attached a picture of where I want to install it. There are gaps on the sides but I will make sure it is bolted down so it can’t move. Hope it will be fine if inspected. This is under the stairs

I think you originally queried leaving a gap around your safe. Presumably so you can still have some storage behind the safe because you can only push it back so far under a stair. I considered a similar installation but did something else instead. Did you consider also having an angle bracket off the brickwork which you could bolt to through the back of the safe? It would add some additional support and be difficult to get to once the safe is in place and bolted from the inside. Just a thought.
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Re: Gun Safe installation - concrete floor, chipboard wall

Post by Rider888 » 08 Jan 2021, 7:56 pm

yoshie wrote:As long as its bolted down it compiles. If you get it inspected the officer will give it a wiggle, if it wiggles too much they won't pass it or tell you to fix it. They might want to make sure the bolt size at least minimum size. I've have 4 inspections in 15 years and haven't had a problem.


Hey mate, with your statement "They might want to make sure the bolt size at least minimum size" is there really any real way of telling that I am using 8mm Dynabolts and not 10mm?

I dont believe there are any markings on the Dynabolts to say what size it is and also I think the holes in my H-Cat safe are too small to fit 10mm bolts

Cheers
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