Safe Storage Experience

Questions about New South Wales gun and ammunition laws. NSW Firearms Act 1996.

Safe Storage Experience

Post by Yes » 11 Apr 2021, 8:14 pm

I have seen a few questions and opinions/information about the NSW safe storage inspection process... So I thought I'd offer my own experience as I went through it last week. Happy to answer questions if there are any.

I've had my licence for 10+ years - own cat A/B/H firearms. Member of a club. Also have hunter/vermin as I own rural property.

Never had an inspection, despite moving 5 times in the first 5 years of having my licence - I hear that this is a trigger... Wasn't for me. Bought my house in Sydney's Inner West in 2015, have bought and sold at least 10 A/B/H firearms in this time (never had more than 8 at any one time) - I hear also that a number of firearms, PTAs, trigger a check too. Nothing has change significantly for me - so can't state a reason why now.

When I bought my place I set-up spika A/B/H safe. Four anchor bolts through the back into the brick work, two into the studs of the floor joist, cut the skirting so it's flush on the brick... It's inside in my office in the house. I wanted to do more than the minimum - I don't want the hassle.

Got a call from an officer on a Monday, had a chat, wanted my email address to set up a visit. Nice guy, polite, friendly. Doing it via email, rather than phone, is obviously so I can't say I got the time/date wrong (at least more than once!). I suspect by the second time you don't answer your door at the agreed time, the next time the come they won't knock! I was down at my property on the Monday, but organised something mutually agreeable for three days after the call.

Cops arrived on time... The officer I dealt with on the phone/email, and a more senior officer.
Took them to the safe, wouldn't let me near the firearms, they took them out and checked serial numbers.
There was some lecturing about doing my club shoots, about if I sell my rural property I'd have to make sure my club membership was always correct etc (basically peacocking) and some concerns about the thickness of my safe and moans and groans about potential seizures (all avoided by my callipers and a my no nonsense approach).

My take away: know what you have, and what the laws are, and be firm/polite/treat it as a business exchange. They are there to catch you out, giving you the benefit of the doubt was certainly not the vibe I got. You're more likely than not to end up charged and without guns if you are on the wrong side of the safe storage. I asked what would have happened if I didn't have something correct: "we'd take your guns and charge you" - it was as simple a statement as that.

They take pictures of your set-up, including the bolts in the rear and floor, they check the position/flushness of the safe, and (inaccurately) measure plate thickness.

Anyway, hope this assists someone in NSW if they get the call out of the blue as I did.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by pomemax » 11 Apr 2021, 10:09 pm

I make a spread sheet with pta number ,serial number on fire arm and position of number, registration paperwork number on it .
box for check the comparison of the numbers

When they arrived I plonked the file containing PTA , Another file containing registration papers with safe speck sheet from manufacturer highlight weight and thickness with the spread sheet on top> All my firearms live with trigger locks even in the safe

Point out the cams and back to base monitoring system and ask if they dont mind being recorded because they are ,I can not turn it off . remote storage of video for 30 days

Nice as pie then lol just checked my spread sheet against his list told me I dont need to bolt it down I said I did as it has my pistols in it , he goes oh yer and left all in all 10 min
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by disco stu » 11 Apr 2021, 10:24 pm

I was recently inspected, was more like pomemax, but probably even friendlier. Checked the safe bolts, compared serial numbers to their list, had a chat about things for a few minutes and they were off. On time, no stress, nice guys. The guys in licensing in my area are really good, go to a lot of effort to help you out, answer questions etc.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by pomemax » 11 Apr 2021, 11:44 pm

Sorry if i gave the impression they were agro very much not, one show me his paper will the number of firearms I (most wives dont know the number) have in the corner in a circle and said it real quiet Mrs said I heard that stuck her head round the corner and showed him her licence and said I know how many he has big lol all round I think he thought he was dropping me in it with the Mrs he look relived
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by disco stu » 12 Apr 2021, 3:38 pm

Ha ha! No, you made them sound very friendly. I was just trying to highlight how nice the guys who came to my house were, as possibly being even nicer
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Apr 2021, 4:58 pm

They are people just like us. About 5% are prix the rest of fine.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by Gamerancher » 13 Apr 2021, 9:58 am

Had mine done a week ago, phone call to arrange a time that suited and they, ( 3 of them ), were a few minutes late as they got a bit lost. ( My property is quite secluded )
I unlocked my gun room, was asked if anyone else had keys / access, I explained that everyone in our family is licenced but only my wife knows the combination to the one safe that contains her firearms, the others are my domain only. The senior constable asked where I kept ammo, I pointed out the different safes and locked cupboards where that was. I showed them how the safes are bolted to the brick walls and to the concrete floor and pointed out that the one that isn't bolted down weighs about 2&1/2 tonnes.
We then went through the checking of serial numbers, I pulled the firearms out showed her that they were clear, read out the serial numbers, she confirmed them and her colleagues ticked them off their list. There were a couple not on their list, I pulled out the file where I keep all of the registrations and showed them the correct paperwork. The senior officer took photos of the papers, thanked me for my time and they left. The whole time they were courteous and relaxed.
There was a question about the number I had. When I explained that we shoot various competitions as a family, the need for different calibres and types of rifles for the different disciplines, ( the shelves full of trophies and medals helps with that one ), and that I also hunt and control pest species they seemed to be satisfied.
The take away is, do a bit more than the minimum, make sure you are complying with separate storage for ammo, make sure your guns are unloaded, ( a loaded mag is considered a loaded gun in NSW, you will be in a whole lot of hurt if they find that ), be polite and know where you stand. Have your rego papers at hand, in my experience, theirs is sometimes out of date or just incorrect.
My previous inspection was done by an officer with an "attitude" who rocked up unannounced on my doorstep at 6 in the morning.
By having more than the minimum standards and being able to stand my ground, soon had him backing down and just doing his job. He was obviously after that "gotcha" but left with all of the right boxes ticked on his paperwork.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by Mick460 » 13 Apr 2021, 4:36 pm

Consider yourselves fortunate to have your various police branches have the decency and courtesy to pre-arrange inspections. There is no such luxury in South Australia, Sapol will never announce their intention to inspect prior to knocking on your door. They can and will as per our 2017 legislation arrive at any time of day or night they deem fit. It can be one, two, three officers or more. This is to catch anyone doing the wrong thing at the time. Many stories abound in the gun clubs of LAFO's becoming unstuck. Apparently the most common way was wives and or other residents opening safes or ammunition storage to allow officers to inspect. There is no 2nd chance in S.A.
I have only been inspected once and it was an enjoyable experience as the officer shoots at the same club as me, I do live rural and most people seem to have good stories. Friends and colleagues in the city seem to be less fortunate. Kind regards, Mick
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by Patriot » 14 Apr 2021, 4:39 pm

I had an inspection just before Easter. Two blokes show up at the arranged time only one of them came in as his mate was on the phone. He checked what I had against his list, it all matched up he said he liked the trigger locks said everything looks good. We chatted briefly about his upcoming Easter weekend at Straddie and they left. All up it took 10 minutes.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by bladeracer » 14 Apr 2021, 5:47 pm

Mick460 wrote:Consider yourselves fortunate to have your various police branches have the decency and courtesy to pre-arrange inspections. There is no such luxury in South Australia, Sapol will never announce their intention to inspect prior to knocking on your door. They can and will as per our 2017 legislation arrive at any time of day or night they deem fit. It can be one, two, three officers or more. This is to catch anyone doing the wrong thing at the time. Many stories abound in the gun clubs of LAFO's becoming unstuck. Apparently the most common way was wives and or other residents opening safes or ammunition storage to allow officers to inspect. There is no 2nd chance in S.A.
I have only been inspected once and it was an enjoyable experience as the officer shoots at the same club as me, I do live rural and most people seem to have good stories. Friends and colleagues in the city seem to be less fortunate. Kind regards, Mick


Same in Victoria, two inspections, no warning.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by disco stu » 14 Apr 2021, 5:57 pm

Oldbloke wrote:They are people just like us. About 5% are prix the rest of fine.


Gee I've come across a lot of the 5% then!! Like I've mentioned, never in the licensing sections, but in other instances. I'm very untrusting of police these days, but it seems to mostly be general duties that have been that way. So many times I've seen them turn a non issue into something major through their attitudes, especially when it's someone needing help. Not to me since I was young and stupid but this isn't based on that.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by MontyShooter » 14 Apr 2021, 7:25 pm

A pre arranged inspection?!?
That makes no sense at all...

I wonder how many keep their guns under their bed and just buy a safe if and when.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by disco stu » 14 Apr 2021, 7:54 pm

I'm pretty sure that unannounced inspections still happen in nsw. I had heard talk about it at some stage. I also thought that dropping in unannounced would ensure people are storing properly.

I had to move my key hiding spot as the kids worked out where I went before opening the safe
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by bladeracer » 14 Apr 2021, 8:06 pm

MontyShooter wrote:A pre arranged inspection?!?
That makes no sense at all...

I wonder how many keep their guns under their bed and just buy a safe if and when.


Theoretically, our government is supposed to assume we are not all criminals. Springing inspections on us just shows how much they don't trust us.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by bah! » 14 Apr 2021, 9:39 pm

bladeracer wrote:Theoretically, our government is supposed to assume we are not all criminals. Springing inspections on us just shows how much they don't trust us.


Hardly an imposition.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by bladeracer » 14 Apr 2021, 10:01 pm

bah! wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Theoretically, our government is supposed to assume we are not all criminals. Springing inspections on us just shows how much they don't trust us.


Hardly an imposition.


What are you referring to?
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by Gamerancher » 15 Apr 2021, 9:18 am

By signing up for a licence, you are basically entering into a fairly strict "good behaviour" bond.
Really, it's no different to having a drivers licence, you are supposed to comply with the road rules.
I don't find it hard to comply with the NSW firearms reg's. I have way too much invested in this sport to risk it by getting lazy.
If I'm not using a firearm, it's locked up, simple. Anything that can go "bang" is also locked up, separately of coarse.
I won't make excuses for, or have anything to do with someone who doesn't do the right thing.
If someone starts telling me about something "special" they have or do, I walk away.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by disco stu » 15 Apr 2021, 10:55 am

Gamerancher wrote:By signing up for a licence, you are basically entering into a fairly strict "good behaviour" bond.
Really, it's no different to having a drivers licence, you are supposed to comply with the road rules.
I don't find it hard to comply with the NSW firearms reg's. I have way too much invested in this sport to risk it by getting lazy.
If I'm not using a firearm, it's locked up, simple. Anything that can go "bang" is also locked up, separately of coarse.
I won't make excuses for, or have anything to do with someone who doesn't do the right thing.
If someone starts telling me about something "special" they have or do, I walk away.


And it was these rules that made my wife a lot more comfortable with firearms and shooting. Before I started shooting she wasn't real comfortable with firearms, wasn't anti but was almost leaning that way. Now she is going around correcting all her anti friends who have the wrong idea about "guns leaning in the corner of the cupboard that kids can get to" type thinking
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by bladeracer » 15 Apr 2021, 1:04 pm

Gamerancher wrote:By signing up for a licence, you are basically entering into a fairly strict "good behaviour" bond.
Really, it's no different to having a drivers licence, you are supposed to comply with the road rules.
I don't find it hard to comply with the NSW firearms reg's. I have way too much invested in this sport to risk it by getting lazy.
If I'm not using a firearm, it's locked up, simple. Anything that can go "bang" is also locked up, separately of coarse.
I won't make excuses for, or have anything to do with someone who doesn't do the right thing.
If someone starts telling me about something "special" they have or do, I walk away.


Like most I'm sure, I have no problem at all with being required to keep my firearms locked up.
But, I do object to having to prove to the authorities that I'm complying with the law. Education (so we are made well aware of our responsibilities), and trust in the citizenry should be sufficient. We have plenty of laws already to prosecute anybody that _actually_ does the wrong thing with a firearm anyway.

And I most strongly object to us, when we are the victims of crimes, being labeled as the perpetrators simply because some scumbag decided they wanted our property, despite our best efforts to secure it.

If having a firearm licence is all it takes to make all citizens be always on their best behavior, it should be made compulsory.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by Yes » 15 Apr 2021, 3:40 pm

I'm glad my post sparked some discussion about the wider issues to do with safe storage.

I am of two minds: I agree with Bladeracer - the assumption should be that we're abiding by the law when we purchase guns and shouldn't required any outside inducement to comply. But I also see the counter argument; that safe storage inspections no doubt increase the compliance of safe storage, and we do agree to that when we purchase guns, so we enter the agreement fully aware.

For me - its more that I got the sense that they were angling to find something wrong - rather than starting from a point of everything is fine. It just adds to wider sense I have that the police, and the government, would be happier if no one other than then had firearms. And the continual tightening and over legislating of firearms and ownership is part of that process - along with taking someone's licence and gun because an air gun pellet is found on the floor of a locked safe during an inspection.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by Mick460 » 15 Apr 2021, 5:26 pm

Gamerancher wrote:By signing up for a licence, you are basically entering into a fairly strict "good behaviour" bond.
Really, it's no different to having a drivers licence, you are supposed to comply with the road rules.
I don't find it hard to comply with the NSW firearms reg's. I have way too much invested in this sport to risk it by getting lazy.
If I'm not using a firearm, it's locked up, simple. Anything that can go "bang" is also locked up, separately of coarse.
I won't make excuses for, or have anything to do with someone who doesn't do the right thing.
If someone starts telling me about something "special" they have or do, I walk away.

One can not simply compare a firearms licence to a drivers licence, if you make an unintentional error whilst on the road you will receive an appropriate fine and loss of demerit points, make numerous errors, or a severe enough error and it may lead to loss of licence.
Make an error in contravention of your licence or registration requirements and you WILL face the full force of the law and courts. I do hold you in great esteem for if I have interpreted your post correctly, and I think I have, it seems you have never made an error in storage requirements, unfortunately some of us are getting on in years and our once agile minds no longer retain the cat-like agility you still possess.
Does one deserve to lose a collection of firearms collected over a lifetime because they dropped a live primer on the floor and failed to notice, or perhaps left a few grains of powder still in the dispenser, or failing to realise there was still a primed case on your shelf?
Wouldn't education be a more appropriate approach in such cases, rather than destroying a law abiding citizens reputation, or taking away what may have been their reason to get out of bed in the morning? Perhaps explain what the person has done correct, and then where they may have done wrong, or how to improve upon their set up.
Perhaps use firearms storage inspections to come down hard on those who are in blatant contravention of their storage conditions, not those who have made smaller, unintentional errors. We aren't all robots and do on occasion make mistakes, not just in the shooting sports but in all facets of our lives. So perhaps rather than suggesting people are 'lazy', acknowledge that they are human.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by Lsfan » 15 Apr 2021, 9:45 pm

I can imagine that if police do random checks without warning, then they are likely to find issues. I’m in nsw and haven’t had an inspection, but I understand they inform you before the inspection. To me that’s like the mobile speed cameras having the warning signs, giving you the opportunity to right your wrong. I feel they should only ever do an inspection once, to ensure your safe is secured properly and you are generally following the rules and that should be it, end of story. If they find issues, then they should give you a timeframe to address any non-conformances and then do a final inspection. If you can’t address the issues, then you probably don’t deserve to have a licence. If they really want to make it work, then they should do random inspections, that way licence owners would always do the right thing and not be complacent, knowing there’s the potential they could inspect at any time. Ultimately we only want to prevent a-hole crooks from getting their hands on our firearms.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by deye243 » 15 Apr 2021, 9:59 pm

Mick460 wrote:
Gamerancher wrote:By signing up for a licence, you are basically entering into a fairly strict "good behaviour" bond.
Really, it's no different to having a drivers licence, you are supposed to comply with the road rules.
I don't find it hard to comply with the NSW firearms reg's. I have way too much invested in this sport to risk it by getting lazy.
If I'm not using a firearm, it's locked up, simple. Anything that can go "bang" is also locked up, separately of coarse.
I won't make excuses for, or have anything to do with someone who doesn't do the right thing.
If someone starts telling me about something "special" they have or do, I walk away.

One can not simply compare a firearms licence to a drivers licence, if you make an unintentional error whilst on the road you will receive an appropriate fine and loss of demerit points, make numerous errors, or a severe enough error and it may lead to loss of licence.
Make an error in contravention of your licence or registration requirements and you WILL face the full force of the law and courts. I do hold you in great esteem for if I have interpreted your post correctly, and I think I have, it seems you have never made an error in storage requirements, unfortunately some of us are getting on in years and our once agile minds no longer retain the cat-like agility you still possess.
Does one deserve to lose a collection of firearms collected over a lifetime because they dropped a live primer on the floor and failed to notice, or perhaps left a few grains of powder still in the dispenser, or failing to realise there was still a primed case on your shelf?
Wouldn't education be a more appropriate approach in such cases, rather than destroying a law abiding citizens reputation, or taking away what may have been their reason to get out of bed in the morning? Perhaps explain what the person has done correct, and then where they may have done wrong, or how to improve upon their set up.
Perhaps use firearms storage inspections to come down hard on those who are in blatant contravention of their storage conditions, not those who have made smaller, unintentional errors. We aren't all robots and do on occasion make mistakes, not just in the shooting sports but in all facets of our lives. So perhaps rather than suggesting people are 'lazy', acknowledge that they are human.


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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by Oldbloke » 15 Apr 2021, 10:35 pm

I'm a retired & qualified auditor in a specialised field. This is how it generally works. (in lay terms)

1. Department or site is spoken to inorder to arrange time of audit.
2. They are informed what the scope of the audit is. (What your focus will be)
3.Time, date, place, resources are agreed. (this is followed up in writing)
4. Auditee is given opportunity to contact auditor prior to audit to ask Qns or ask advice.
5. Audit is undertaken in a relaxed, friendly manner and generally they go well.
5. Written results are provided. e.g. improvement notes with date of follow up audit to confirm improvements are implemented. ( dates again negitiated,agreed)

Result
1. Compliance has been improved. (Because they had time to get their act together)
2. Everyone is happy
3. Less stress
4. Auditee no longer thinks the auditor is a total pric.
5. Auditee gained a little knowledge.

If you spring an audit all that happens is there is resistance to improvement, less/no trust, no learning out comes. A crap result. Its just a policing action that any gorilla can undertake.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by rc42 » 15 Apr 2021, 11:05 pm

The process above would be ideal for licensed shooters to improve security and compliance, however, those aren't the objectives of the police, as far as I can tell, those objectives are:

1. Get a firearms related conviction to make the stats look better and create the appearance that police are actively working to reduce gun related crime and improve 'public safety'.
2. Reduce the number of licensed shooters and the number of firearms in civilian hands.
3. Discourage others from becoming licensed and owning firearms


It seems that the best way to achieve this is to send a thug with ape like intelligence on a surprise inspection to find the smallest of mistakes or try to intimidate the 'victim' into admitting to a mistake so that they can seize guns and prosecute.

I suspect the police know exactly what they are doing and why, things are never going to change and trust and confidence in police will be in a never ending downward spiral.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by bah! » 15 Apr 2021, 11:25 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bah! wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Theoretically, our government is supposed to assume we are not all criminals. Springing inspections on us just shows how much they don't trust us.


Hardly an imposition.


What are you referring to?


Inspections
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by bah! » 15 Apr 2021, 11:30 pm

Mick460 wrote:unfortunately some of us are getting on in years and our once agile minds no longer retain the cat-like agility you still possess.


If you're getting on a bit and are concerned that both the cops will harass you for leaving a primer around, or forgetting to lock up your guns, maybe best to move on with happy memories before fines, or worse?
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by bladeracer » 16 Apr 2021, 12:12 am

bah! wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
bah! wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Theoretically, our government is supposed to assume we are not all criminals. Springing inspections on us just shows how much they don't trust us.


Hardly an imposition.


What are you referring to?


Inspections


I never suggested inspections were an imposition though.
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by bladeracer » 16 Apr 2021, 12:14 am

bah! wrote:
Mick460 wrote:unfortunately some of us are getting on in years and our once agile minds no longer retain the cat-like agility you still possess.


If you're getting on a bit and are concerned that both the cops will harass you for leaving a primer around, or forgetting to lock up your guns, maybe best to move on with happy memories before fines, or worse?


You seem to be agreeing that these minor incidents are perfectly acceptable reasons to take away somebody's firearms, despite never actually endangering anybody?
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Re: Safe Storage Experience

Post by womble » 16 Apr 2021, 4:28 am

No appointment, no inspection.
Can’t be helped sorry. I need to verify who they are.
Just part of my security, which is well above and beyond legal requirements.
Inspections are welcome and i appreciate the service.
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