Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rules

Questions about New South Wales gun and ammunition laws. NSW Firearms Act 1996.

Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rules

Post by C3H5N3O9 » 18 Apr 2021, 4:42 pm

Hi All,

I'm looking to get into sports shooting but because of the new (absurdly restrictive) P650 forms my well-managed ADHD makes me unable to pass the P650 and ineligible to do a 'try and shoot' or a safety course

When I call clubs - they tell me to call the registry. when I call the registry, they tell me to call a club. Right now my best guess as to the process for me is:

1) find a club willing to have me fill out a P650 and 'fail' it for a safety course
2) send that P650 to the Firearms registry for assessment along with documentation that well managed adhd does not in fact make me a risk to anyone in any capacity, wait for ??? (If the club even allows this)
3) complete the safety course
4) apply for a licence and re-send that documentation in, wait for ???

my concern is that step 2 will take an absurdly long time - from what I've read, licences are taking a lot longer than normal and when I called the registry they heavily implied P650's were not being processed / not being processed at all quickly. I'm happy to wait if I have to, but I'd prefer not to wait three years just so the police can come back to be and say 'you filled out this form wrong, try again" and kick me right back to the start of the process.

Is anyone aware of a way to get permission to complete a safety course (so I can apply for a licence) that doesn't involve filling out a P650 and waiting for what is likely upwards of a year, and then waiting again for the licence?
C3H5N3O9
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 6
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by linkoln » 20 Apr 2021, 10:10 am

Which part of the p650 can't you pass, do they consider ADHD a mental illness if so the only solution is to go to your doctor and see if they will write a letter saying you are ok to use firearms.
linkoln
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 166
-

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by Gamerancher » 20 Apr 2021, 11:37 am

Yeah, wondering what the issue is. You don't send a P650 anywhere. The forms are available at clubs, ( or they should be ) or can be found online. You fill it in, hand it to the club supervisor and get on with it. The questions about mental health issues ask whether you are suffering from a condition that would make you unsafe to use firearms. You state that you aren't, so you should be able to tick the NO box. Failing that, as said above, get your doctor to write a letter stating that there is no reason for you to be excluded.
If that is not the case, sorry, but it's probably best to look at another sport.
There have been cases in NSW where mentally ill people have gained access to firearms via P650's and taken their own lives, so you can understand a clubs reluctance if you do have a mental illness.
User avatar
Gamerancher
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1596
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by disco stu » 20 Apr 2021, 11:58 am

I'm not sure if the forms have changed recently, as you mention new p650 form. Are you referring to this section of the form: "d) Are you suffering from any mental illness or other disorder that may prevent you from using a firearm safely?" That is from the form dated 2008.

If it is that question, the fact you want to take up sport shooting implies that you believe you can use a firearm safely, which indicates that "no" would be an appropriate response and you aren't providing false information if you genuinely believe that. If you don't then you're already lying about it, which would then mean that you would have lied on the P650 form and wouldn't be hear asking, so it would appear to me that ticking "no" would be appropriate.

I don't see ADHD as something that should prevent people being able to handle firearms safely. Ever seen an ADHD person when its something they want to do and they enjoy it...... I think there is a very large proportion of the population that are ADHD and don't know it, and for many it has worked in their favor as they've found their groove and thrived, so never needed to look into it.
disco stu
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 526
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by bluerob » 20 Apr 2021, 12:18 pm

The process for completion of a P650 is now TOTALLY different to previous times - I am the Club Secretary of a NSW pistol/rifle club and was told that the online form is now not available and you are required to contact the Club Secretary or Range Captain to obtain a P650 document (January 2021 version).

In regards to the ADHD issue, you will probably be required to have a mental health assessment by a psychologist?
bluerob
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 342
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by linkoln » 20 Apr 2021, 3:08 pm

I was wondering if ADHD was even a mental illness but a Google search says
"The three main symptoms of ADHD are hyperactivity , impulsivity , and inattention . All of these impact behavior, mood , and thinking. That's why ADHD meets the criteria for mental illness"

The p650 actually doesn't say you can even get a letter from your doctor you are just ineligible to use firearms, NSW is tough and unfortunately this looks like the end of the road for you; you will probably need to find another sport to participate in.

Other states allow you to get a letter from your doctor or if you haven't been treated for the condition in the last five years you don't have to include it but looks like nsw has taken an extremely tough stance on this issue.
linkoln
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 166
-

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by Bugman » 20 Apr 2021, 4:42 pm

After "the Edwards Coronial Enquiry" one of the key recommendations was to have the P650 scrapped or modified to allow very close scrutiny etc. In other words, attending a range and just filling out the P650 and start shooting looks to be doomed. I think most clubs are very cautious now about new shooters ( in NSW) and
this would be making commitment to you from that club, very difficult. As bluerob has stated, things are very different with the P650 form.
User avatar
Bugman
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1071
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by C3H5N3O9 » 20 Apr 2021, 8:03 pm

Gamerancher wrote:...The questions about mental health issues ask whether you are suffering from a condition that would make you unsafe to use firearms.....


disco stu wrote:I'm not sure if the forms have changed recently, as you mention new p650 form. Are you referring to this section of the form: "d) Are you suffering from any mental illness or other disorder that may prevent you from using a firearm safely?" That is from the form dated 2008.


As mentioned by others in the thread, this question has (unfortunately) been updated and is now a lot more strict -

for reference the newer one is:
" In the past 12 months been treated or referred for treatment for alcoholism, drug dependence or a mental illness within the meaning of the Mental Health Act 2007 or as a mentally disordered person within the meaning of that Act"

Gamerancher wrote:...Yeah, wondering what the issue is. You don't send a P650 anywhere... .
According to nsw FAR if you 'fail' the P650 it can be sent to them for assessment. they told me to call a club but it's increasingly clear that it's not a common process. it's documented here: https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/online_se ... rocess#A10 :...f you have responded ‘Yes’ to any question other than (a)(i) correctly, you are prohibited from taking part in unlicensed shooting..." but it's not clear if this applies to a safety course - as my understanding is I could complete a course and get licensed without doing any actual shooting

linkoln wrote:Which part of the p650 can't you pass, do they consider ADHD a mental illness if so the only solution is to go to your doctor and see if they will write a letter saying you are ok to use firearms.

you know.. my initial answer was 'it definitely falls under the definition' but I'm reading the act it references and it's defined as:

Code: Select all
14   Mentally ill persons(cf 1990 Act, s 9)
(1)  A person is a mentally ill person if the person is suffering from mental illness and, owing to that illness, there are reasonable grounds for believing that care, treatment or control of the person is necessary—
(a)  for the person’s own protection from serious harm, or
(b)  for the protection of others from serious harm.
(2)  In considering whether a person is a mentally ill person, the continuing condition of the person, including any likely deterioration in the person’s condition and the likely effects of any such deterioration, are to be taken into account.
15   Mentally disordered persons(cf 1990 Act, s 10)
A person (whether or not the person is suffering from mental illness) is a mentally disordered person if the person’s behaviour for the time being is so irrational as to justify a conclusion on reasonable grounds that temporary care, treatment or control of the person is necessary—
(a)  for the person’s own protection from serious physical harm, or
(b)  for the protection of others from serious physical harm.


so i'm questioning if ADHD counts under that? that definition seems focused on if you're a harm to yourself or others, which i'm not.

However - It's definitely a medical condition and mental illness in the common usage of the term, and given how 'on record' ADHD has to be (6 monthly psych visits and S8 medication) I would be extremely concerned that NSW FAR Will come back and say "nope you lied on your P650" and ruin my chances of ever having a licence.

bluerob wrote:] In regards to the ADHD issue, you will probably be required to have a mental health assessment by a psychologist?
yep - i'm certain i'll need this. Ideally i'd like to know the requirements NSW FAR has for those letters before I waste $500 on some letters that won't help me out.

Gamerancher wrote:If that is not the case, sorry, but it's probably best to look at another sport.


linkoln wrote:The p650 actually doesn't say you can even get a letter from your doctor you are just ineligible to use firearms, NSW is tough and unfortunately this looks like the end of the road for you; you will probably need to find another sport to participate in.


This might end up being the outcome but I'm not going to give up at this stage. my experience with "paperwork loops" like this (I need a licence to do a safety course, I need a safety course to get a licence) is that there is always a way past it if you politely but persistently keep at it with the relevant department.

I think my next step is to call NSW FAR And figure out A) if the Info I was given was correct (that it can be sent in for FAR assessment if 'failed') and if so, B) how the hell I do that / the clubs do that. Even though the wording of the question means I can probably answer no, being pulled up in five years because the FAR doesn't agree with my interpretation of the wording is Something i'd like to avoid if at all possible (and I can't imagine that would be much fun for the endorsing club either). Failing that, it might be time to seek some legal advice so at least I have it from a professional that it's a reasonable interpretation of the wording.

Edit: I just found this 'permit' and I suspect this is what the NSW FAR was referring to when I spoke to them. since it isn't specifically for this purpose i'll see what they say when I call them.
C3H5N3O9
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 6
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by disco stu » 20 Apr 2021, 9:49 pm

I'm assuming you've asked FAR if ADHD falls under the definition of mental illness.

To my reading of the act that you posted, you don't meet the requirements for 1a and 1b because you don't require treatment for either your own protection or the protection of others, so therefore you wouldn't be considered "mentally ill"
disco stu
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 526
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by linkoln » 21 Apr 2021, 8:28 am

disco stu wrote: you don't meet the requirements for 1a and 1b because you don't require treatment for either your own protection or the protection of others, so therefore you wouldn't be considered "mentally ill"


The thing is it says "mental illness or other disorder" those are extremely broad terms and could include anything, I've heard Queensland have changed their definition of disorder to include sleeping problems; so in Queensland if you have ever had trouble sleeping you can't own a firearm.
No one here is an expert so I know you don't want to hear it but licencing and your club are the only places you can go to get a definite answer.
linkoln
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 166
-

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by Gamerancher » 21 Apr 2021, 8:39 am

This is what you need to do if you have answered "Yes" to any of the personal questions on a P650
Try this link.
https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/online_se ... ing_course

This is not a "get around" or a "loop-hole", it is the step you need to take.
There have been a number of incidences of people taking there own lives by getting access to a firearm via the P650 system.
They waited for the instructor to be distracted for a moment and deliberately shot themselves. No club wants a repeat of that.
There is a lot of pressure from the anti-gun lobby to abolish the system and "Try shooting" days for this reason.
User avatar
Gamerancher
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1596
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by bluerob » 21 Apr 2021, 1:31 pm

People who have had their licence suspended (mental health) are required to attend a psychologist for assessment. NSW Police will send you a letter that contains a sealed envelope that is addressed to the doctor. The doctor performs the assessment and posts it back to NSW Police. NSW Police then determine if you are OK to obtain a licence based on what the doctor answered in regards to the sealed envelope - there's a whole series of questions that are asked. DO NOT OPEN THE SEALED ENVELOPE!!!

This is what happened recently to one of my club members who said he was "going home to blow my brains out" (through pure frustration, would never do it, but, you are still required to report these to NSW Police).
bluerob
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 342
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by disco stu » 21 Apr 2021, 7:53 pm

linkoln wrote:
disco stu wrote: you don't meet the requirements for 1a and 1b because you don't require treatment for either your own protection or the protection of others, so therefore you wouldn't be considered "mentally ill"


The thing is it says "mental illness or other disorder" those are extremely broad terms and could include anything, I've heard Queensland have changed their definition of disorder to include sleeping problems; so in Queensland if you have ever had trouble sleeping you can't own a firearm.
No one here is an expert so I know you don't want to hear it but licencing and your club are the only places you can go to get a definite answer.


Yes, but the part after that says "AND where you have needed treatment for either your own protection or for the protection of others". So that means you need to meet both of those criteria to be considered mentally ill within the scope of this act. If you only met the first part then you don't meet the "and" section, which means you aren't considered mentally ill in the eyes of this act. I think that is pretty clear, but surprised that no one at FAR has pointed this out
disco stu
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 526
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by pomemax » 21 Apr 2021, 10:16 pm

Ask your Dr if your condition is classed as a within the meaning of the Mental Health Act 2007 or as a mentally disordered
person within the meaning of that Act? dont pressure for the answer Just ask
.
If you are applying for a firearms licence you dont need a P650 filled out only if your doing your course at a range where they may take you for a shoot some gun shops do licence course.

But on the licence application you will need to know if you should tick yes.

But if you have rang FAR giving you name and date of birth address ect asking them questions about mental health have you ever thought about fishing or kite flying. Because they will have it on your record now .
pomemax
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1165
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by Oldbloke » 23 Apr 2021, 8:02 pm

Maybe contact this bloke. Simon Munslow. He's in NSW

https://www.sportingshooter.com.au/gun- ... ose-cannon

Or the NSC
The greatest invention in the history of man is beer.
https://youtu.be/2v3QrUvYj-Y
Member. SFFP, Shooters Union.
SSAA, the powerful gun lobby. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hunt safe.
User avatar
Oldbloke
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11192
Victoria

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by C3H5N3O9 » 12 Jul 2021, 5:17 pm

pomemax wrote:If you are applying for a firearms licence you dont need a P650 filled out only if your doing your course at a range where they may take you for a shoot some gun shops do licence course.


Actually not true. to apply for a licence, I need to do a safety course - and as far as i'm aware to do that, you need to fill out a P650 form. if you know of an alternative to doing it through a club that doesn't need a P650, i'm all ears.


pomemax wrote:
But if you have rang FAR giving you name and date of birth address ect asking them questions about mental health have you ever thought about fishing or kite flying. Because they will have it on your record now .


I didn't give them those details of course, but my ADHD meds are on state and federal records already - meaning trying to keep something "off the record" that is already literally in a national database or ten isn't high on my priority list.


Oldbloke wrote:Maybe contact this bloke. Simon Munslow. He's in NSW

https://www.sportingshooter.com.au/gun- ... ose-cannon

Or the NSC


Yeah I've definitely considered this option - that's my next step if I can't get a license through the standard process / They knock it back.


Gamerancher wrote:This is what you need to do if you have answered "Yes" to any of the personal questions on a P650
Try this link.
https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/online_se ... ing_course

This is not a "get around" or a "loop-hole", it is the step you need to take.
There have been a number of incidences of people taking there own lives by getting access to a firearm via the P650 system.
They waited for the instructor to be distracted for a moment and deliberately shot themselves. No club wants a repeat of that.
There is a lot of pressure from the anti-gun lobby to abolish the system and "Try shooting" days for this reason.


see - my reading of this would disagree that this is the relevant form. my initial thought was to use this process, but you'll note on that page it specifically says "This permit authorises a person who has indicated on a P650 declaration that they have previously been refused or prohibited from holding a firearms licence or had a firearms licence or permit suspended, cancelled or revoked, to undertake a Firearms Safety Training."

My situation wouldn't fall under this at all so I suspect they'll just reject any application as "not relevant" because I've never had a firearms licence / been prohibited from having one

bluerob wrote:People who have had their licence suspended (mental health) are required to attend a psychologist for assessment. NSW Police will send you a letter that contains a sealed envelope that is addressed to the doctor. The doctor performs the assessment and posts it back to NSW Police. NSW Police then determine if you are OK to obtain a licence based on what the doctor answered in regards to the sealed envelope - there's a whole series of questions that are asked. DO NOT OPEN THE SEALED ENVELOPE!!!

This is what happened recently to one of my club members who said he was "going home to blow my brains out" (through pure frustration, would never do it, but, you are still required to report these to NSW Police).


This would actually be ideal if this is the process for new applications as well, so fingers crossed it's the standard process. Having a Form / Standard question set that the psych gets will solve a lot of issues that tend to pop up when medical evidence is required.


disco stu wrote:I'm assuming you've asked FAR if ADHD falls under the definition of mental illness.

To my reading of the act that you posted, you don't meet the requirements for 1a and 1b because you don't require treatment for either your own protection or the protection of others, so therefore you wouldn't be considered "mentally ill"


disco stu wrote: ...Yes, but the part after that says "AND where you have needed treatment for either your own protection or for the protection of others". So that means you need to meet both of those criteria to be considered mentally ill within the scope of this act. If you only met the first part then you don't meet the "and" section, which means you aren't considered mentally ill in the eyes of this act. I think that is pretty clear, but surprised that no one at FAR has pointed this out


Yep - after some careful re-reading this is the conclusion i've reached as well. I Wish this had just been explained when I called but I don't hold out much hope of getting clear advice from any government department, let alone an understaffed FAR.
C3H5N3O9
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 6
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by disco stu » 12 Jul 2021, 6:00 pm

I've been wondering how you've been getting along with this. So many people who either give advice or enforce these types of rules don't understand them.

Now I think about it,I don't think I had to fill out a p650 when going my course. This was a few years ago though, but I'll check with the guy who does the courses in my club
disco stu
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 526
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by C3H5N3O9 » 12 Jul 2021, 6:14 pm

disco stu wrote:I've been wondering how you've been getting along with this. So many people who either give advice or enforce these types of rules don't understand them.

Now I think about it,I don't think I had to fill out a p650 when going my course. This was a few years ago though, but I'll check with the guy who does the courses in my club


That would be great - Understandably, clubs get really cagey really quickly when I'm asking them about stuff like this. my assumption that I need one is based on NSW FAR website ( here)
"A P650 'Declaration - Person shooting on an Approved Range or undertaking a Firearms Safety Training Course' is the form which must be completed prior to an unlicensed person shooting on a range or undertaking firearms safety training"

As far as I can tell, there's no legislative requirement for a P650 form, so it's entirely possible it's a new requirement that not everyone will have had to complete and/or it was previously a different form. (prior to the changes made a few years ago, it was also a pretty forgettable form (one page, very simple questions) so it isn't something one would necessarily remember filling out)
C3H5N3O9
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 6
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by disco stu » 12 Jul 2021, 6:21 pm

I just had it confirmed that the p650 does need to be filled out for any course, so no joy there.

One of the members of my club is rep for hunting/shooting organisation. His initial response is that my take on the act is correct, but he will be checking on this and will get back in touch with a response. One of his battles is the bad information given out by firearms registry so he wasn't surprised by this
disco stu
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 526
New South Wales

Re: Process for getting licenced when I can't meet P650 rule

Post by disco stu » 13 Jul 2021, 8:49 pm

Just sent you a private message with further info and some contact info. Hopefully it helps
disco stu
Sergeant
Sergeant
 
Posts: 526
New South Wales


Back to top
 
Return to New South Wales gun laws