Safe inspection advice

Questions about New South Wales gun and ammunition laws. NSW Firearms Act 1996.

Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 26 Oct 2021, 9:59 am

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:There is no law that prevents anything, that's impossible. Laws only allow a means of prosecution after the event.

Everybody has access to firearms if they have no regard for laws, hardly relevant to a discussion about lawfully accessing them.


Okay!

Now you are just arguing nonsense because I showed that you had a simplistic and flawed understanding of the law.


I don't study law like some, I just try to learn the laws I need to understand.
If Police had a warrant then they can certainly insist upon seeing your safe storage.
I do not believe that safe storage inspection gives them the power to "lob up" unannounced and insist you allow them to do a safe inspection...
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 26 Oct 2021, 10:03 am

Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:QLD law states if you are in possession of a firearm you must produce the licence or firearm for inspection within 48 hours at a "reasonable place and time"

If you are in physical possession it must be immediately. The law distinguishes between possession and physical possession.

Being under what the licence holder preserves as the influence of liquor you have grounds to refuse a secure storage inspection as it is not a reasonable time..


That is my understanding also, being "under the influence" (in this instance) is a determination made by the individual himself, not the authorities. The same as deciding not to drive after ingesting intoxicants.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Communism_Is_Cancer » 26 Oct 2021, 10:09 am

bladeracer wrote:If you are in physical possession it must be immediately. The law distinguishes between possession and physical possession.

Being under what the licence holder preserves as the influence of liquor you have grounds to refuse a secure storage inspection as it is not a reasonable time..


That is my understanding also, being "under the influence" (in this instance) is a determination made by the individual himself, not the authorities. The same as deciding not to drive after ingesting intoxicants.[/quote]


It could also mean if you are sick and you don't want to handle firearms or you are making dinner for the kids and it is unreasonable to not supervise them..

In practice in Queensland at least the police always seem to ring you and make a booking. I do hear in NSW and VIC they sometimes just rock up unannounced.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 26 Oct 2021, 10:10 am

Fionn wrote:If you feel so strongly about not having access to them while under the influence, maybe start lobbying for alcohol interlocks to be mandatory on firearms storage.

Gun Control Australia would support your stance.


I'm still dumbfounded with this statement that pro-gun people should be advocating for access to firearms while intoxicated.

Alcohol interlocks only restrict access to the safe, they certainly don't prevent access (they add a layer of difficulty at best). But they definitely do not prevent access to firearms that aren't in the safe.

GCA wouldn't support my stance on anything at all :-)
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 26 Oct 2021, 10:14 am

Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:It could also mean if you are sick and you don't want to handle firearms or you are making dinner for the kids and it is unreasonable to not supervise them..

In practice in Queensland at least the police always seem to ring you and make a booking. I do hear in NSW and VIC they sometimes just rock up unannounced.


Two inspections in Vic, both times they "lobbed up", both inspections were just fine. I have no problem with Police visiting, or anybody else that wants to chat about firearms :-)
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by MontyShooter » 26 Oct 2021, 6:23 pm

Police just turned up around 9pm on a sat night unannounced for me about 5 years ago. It's probably a 2 hour job just to get access to my safe now so good luck cops or crims getting a look in a hurry now.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Fionn » 27 Oct 2021, 8:48 am

bladeracer wrote:I don't study law like some, I just try to learn the laws I need to understand.
If Police had a warrant then they can certainly insist upon seeing your safe storage.
I do not believe that safe storage inspection gives them the power to "lob up" unannounced and insist you allow them to do a safe inspection...


Depends on the state.

In NSW no,

It is a condition on a licence that the licensee allows inspection by police of the safe keeping and storage facilities for the firearm at a mutually agreed time - section 19(2)(c) of the Act. A licensee must make all reasonable efforts to accommodate any reasonable request by police to inspect the safe storage and safe keeping facilities - clause 37 of the Firearms Regulation 2017.

In Victoria yes, but with some restrictions on the time.

The holder of the licence must permit a police officer to inspect the holder's storage arrangements at any reasonable time. Firearms Act schedule 1.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Fionn » 27 Oct 2021, 8:59 am

bladeracer wrote:That is my understanding also, being "under the influence" (in this instance) is a determination made by the individual himself, not the authorities. The same as deciding not to drive after ingesting intoxicants.


It's a determination made by the police, which they have to prove.

It's an offence committed by the individual.

Driving under the influence/intoxicated are very different laws to what we are talking about and are not relevant in most cases.

I am interested to know how you think the police prove you are under the influence, as if you know this then it answers your question of what under the influence means in law.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Fionn » 27 Oct 2021, 9:07 am

bladeracer wrote:
I'm still dumbfounded with this statement that pro-gun people should be advocating for access to firearms while intoxicated.

Alcohol interlocks only restrict access to the safe, they certainly don't prevent access (they add a layer of difficulty at best). But they definitely do not prevent access to firearms that aren't in the safe.

GCA wouldn't support my stance on anything at all :-)


Your still dumbfounded as you don't understand what I said.

Try reading it again, if you are still having problems let me know.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Fionn » 27 Oct 2021, 9:25 am

Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:
It could also mean if you are sick and you don't want to handle firearms or you are making dinner for the kids and it is unreasonable to not supervise them..


That's a miss understanding of wording of the law, reasonable time in law means a point in time. As in its reasonable to inspect them at 3pm but not at 3am.

The only way reasonable in circumstances comes into to play is say if they turn up to your house at 3am and you're wake and up and about then it reasonable to inspect at that time.

Using your interpretation of the law would allow you never to be inspected as you could come up with an excuse each time.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by rc42 » 27 Oct 2021, 11:16 am

MontyShooter wrote:It's probably a 2 hour job just to get access to my safe now ...


This statement intrigued me.

Is this some crazy security like welding it up each time you close it and having to open it with an angle grinder?
Or maybe a cascade of safes like russian dolls where every time you open one there's another inside?
Or maybe a complex computer lock that needs you to correctly answer 50 personal questions before it will let you in?
What about a 500 digit passcode?

I'm struggling to think of ways that would take 2 hours, if you have a very messy house and memory issues so it takes 2 hours to find the safe each time then you probably don't want to mention that.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by dpskipper » 27 Oct 2021, 11:21 am

rc42 wrote:
MontyShooter wrote:It's probably a 2 hour job just to get access to my safe now ...


I'm struggling to think of ways that would take 2 hours, if you have a very messy house and memory issues so it takes 2 hours to find the safe each time then you probably don't want to mention that.


I'd imagine theres just s**t piled up infront of it. The bloke might have his safe in the shed, and theres a lawn mower and 50 other things infront. Not everyone is a club shooter and opening the safe every 15mins.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 27 Oct 2021, 12:11 pm

Fionn wrote:Depends on the state.
In NSW no,

It is a condition on a licence that the licensee allows inspection by police of the safe keeping and storage facilities for the firearm at a mutually agreed time - section 19(2)(c) of the Act. A licensee must make all reasonable efforts to accommodate any reasonable request by police to inspect the safe storage and safe keeping facilities - clause 37 of the Firearms Regulation 2017.

In Victoria yes, but with some restrictions on the time.

The holder of the licence must permit a police officer to inspect the holder's storage arrangements at any reasonable time. Firearms Act schedule 1.


Yes, that's my understanding of NSW law, which is what we are discussing here, not Vic.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 27 Oct 2021, 12:38 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:That is my understanding also, being "under the influence" (in this instance) is a determination made by the individual himself, not the authorities. The same as deciding not to drive after ingesting intoxicants.


It's a determination made by the police, which they have to prove.

It's an offence committed by the individual.

Driving under the influence/intoxicated are very different laws to what we are talking about and are not relevant in most cases.

I am interested to know how you think the police prove you are under the influence, as if you know this then it answers your question of what under the influence means in law.


Police have no reason to attempt to prove you are under the influence if you say you are, and you haven't committed any offence...if anything they would have to attempt to prove you were mistaken or lying, which seems entirely pointless...

Yes, I've stated several times that drink driving laws are very different from firearm laws, and very specific...

Again, if I tell a Police officer that I have ingested intoxicating substances that _I_ feel may impair my abilities to deal with him, why would he even attempt to prove otherwise? Why would he not simply make a appointment for a time to return at my convenience? Why is believing I am impaired not "reasonable" to avoid an _unannounced_ inspection? Why is it not reasonable that _I_ prefer to keep my safe keys somewhere safe rather than have them in my possession in that situation? It's certainly reasonable to not drive a vehicle if I believe I'm impaired in any way. My advice if you feel you may be intoxicated _at any level_ would be to politely refuse to enter into any discussion with Police, talking with Police can too easily bite you in the bum, even when totally sober. Simply state that you believe you are too impaired to deal with him at that time and ask him to set a date and time for the inspection. Claiming to be intoxicated while greeting Police for a prearranged inspection would be a very, very bad idea I think.

Do not misunderstand me here. I am only talking about a person who has genuinely partaken. I do not in _any_ way condone lying to Police simply to prove a point that they should've made a prior arrangement, that would be extremely stupid and very likely grounds to be listed as a prohibited person - don't do it. If you have something to hide, you'll have to decide which choice to take the risk on. My view is don't do illegal stuff, and stop worrying about Police visiting. When Police knock on my door, my first thought is not about what evidence I've left about, it's what has happened to my daughter, or some other family member. My first assumption is that they've come to help me in some way.

A very quick example of how Police will manipulate what you say. Many years ago I was convicted for a wheelie on a single word (this occurred in court so I assume is on the record). He claimed I did a wheelie, my first response was that I didn't think I had (I still don't believe I did as it occurred in fairly heavy city traffic, but he didn't pull me up until 2000m down the road, by which time I couldn't recall anything untoward having happened). He used my word "think" to show that I was not certain I hadn't done it...case closed. If an officer claims you did something, state that you did not, not that you don't think you did :-)
To protect public safety from such dangerous disdain for the law, he said I should expect a summons, and sent me on my way...and three months (of riding every day) later we went to court....
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Fionn » 27 Oct 2021, 12:38 pm

bladeracer wrote:Yes, that's my understanding of NSW law, which is what we are discussing here, not Vic.


Which is why I posted it.

I haven't been discussing Victorian laws except to illustrate they are different.

The legal interpretations I have discussed applies to both states.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 27 Oct 2021, 12:39 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
I'm still dumbfounded with this statement that pro-gun people should be advocating for access to firearms while intoxicated.

Alcohol interlocks only restrict access to the safe, they certainly don't prevent access (they add a layer of difficulty at best). But they definitely do not prevent access to firearms that aren't in the safe.

GCA wouldn't support my stance on anything at all :-)


Your still dumbfounded as you don't understand what I said.

Try reading it again, if you are still having problems let me know.


Yep, you'll have to explain this one...
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 27 Oct 2021, 12:51 pm

rc42 wrote:
MontyShooter wrote:It's probably a 2 hour job just to get access to my safe now ...


This statement intrigued me.

Is this some crazy security like welding it up each time you close it and having to open it with an angle grinder?
Or maybe a cascade of safes like russian dolls where every time you open one there's another inside?
Or maybe a complex computer lock that needs you to correctly answer 50 personal questions before it will let you in?
What about a 500 digit passcode?

I'm struggling to think of ways that would take 2 hours, if you have a very messy house and memory issues so it takes 2 hours to find the safe each time then you probably don't want to mention that.


The second time they inspected me they happened to come while I was installing shelving in my office...in winter...so everything was stuffed in there to keep it dry. It took me some time to manage to get into my safes, by uncovering one at a time and handing my rifles over the debris (sheets of Yellow Tongue and MDF mainly) between myself and the DFO, who then handed it outside to the second officer to read in the day light, before returning it via the same hand-to-hand trek. It took a long time to get through but it went pleasantly. I was very impressed with the DFO as I caught him several times glancing surreptitiously around the mess (as he rightly should), but he made no attempt to _make_ anything more visible than it was. There was nothing to hide of course, but it's too easy for an officer in his curiosity to nudge a book out of the way, or poke a finger in the crack of a drawer to let a little more light in, in an attempt to "create" a lawful search. I even pulled up my logbook on my computer so we could both see that all my firearms are fully documented (every single round that gets fired in each, and the reason I fired it), again a perfect opportunity to nudge the mouse in hopes of uncovering something illicit on screen. He got excellent grades from me that day.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Fionn » 27 Oct 2021, 2:55 pm

bladeracer wrote:Police have no reason to attempt to prove you are under the influence if you say you are, and you haven't committed any offence...if anything they would have to attempt to prove you were mistaken or lying, which seems entirely pointless....

Yes, I've stated several times that drink driving laws are very different from firearm laws, and very specific...

Again, if I tell a Police officer that I have ingested intoxicating substances that _I_ feel may impair my abilities to deal with him, why would he even attempt to prove otherwise? Why would he not simply make a appointment for a time to return at my convenience? Why is believing I am impaired not "reasonable" to avoid an _unannounced_ inspection? Why is it not reasonable that _I_ prefer to keep my safe keys somewhere safe rather than have them in my possession in that situation? It's certainly reasonable to not drive a vehicle if I believe I'm impaired in any way. My advice if you feel you may be intoxicated _at any level_ would be to politely refuse to enter into any discussion with Police, talking with Police can too easily bite you in the bum, even when totally sober. Simply state that you believe you are too impaired to deal with him at that time and ask him to set a date and time for the inspection. Claiming to be intoxicated while greeting Police for a prearranged inspection would be a very, very bad idea I think.


I think your confusion is due to not understanding the different laws in play and what certain words mean.

Police power to inspect the safe keeping and storage facilities for the firearm is section 19(2)(c) of the Act which is

Firearms Act section 19(2)(c)
the licensee must, in accordance with such arrangements as are agreed on by the licensee and the Commissioner, or, in the case of a licensed firearms dealer, at any reasonable time, permit inspection by a police officer (or such other person as may be prescribed by the regulations) of the licensee's facilities in respect of the storage and safe keeping of the firearms in the licensee's possession,,


In simple terms this means the police can inspect the facilities in respect to the storage and safe keeping of the firearms in the licensee's possession at a mutually agreed time. This power is only to inspect the facilities in respect of storage and safe keeping of firearms, not to inspect the firearms themselves and must be done at a mutually agreed time.

This means if you have made a mutually agreed time, you must allow inspection.

If you do not allow this inspection to take place, you have breached you licence conditions. Now depending on the circumstances as to why you refused or couldn't comply with the inspection, will dictate the action the police will take. ie if you're in hospital because you got hit by a bus vs you decided to get drunk prior to the inspection and then used it as an excuse not to allow access. (this excuse could also end up getting a prohibition order issued against you)

There is nothing in this law requiring you to handle or use the firearms when complying with this request.

Now Police also have the separate power to require you to produce a firearm for inspection

Firearms Act section 37
(1) The person in whose name a firearm is registered:
(a) must produce the firearm for inspection by a police officer at any reasonable time when requested to do so by the officer


I have explained already that reasonable time is in relation to a point in time, not a circumstance.

Now again, there is no lawful excuse not to comply with this request as long as its done at a reasonable time. This request is often made in conjunction with exercising the above powers in section 19 at the time of a storage inspection.

An important word in this section is "produce" in law it means to bring forward; to show or exhibit; to bring into view or notice

Again there is nothing in this law requiring you to handle or use the firearms.

Then we have the laws about restrictions where alcohol or other drugs concerned

Firearms Act section 64,
A person must not handle or use a firearm while the person is under the influence of alcohol or any other drug.


The important words here are "handle or use" I don't think I need to explain what these mean.

So with the above laws explained, you will see that being under the influence is not a lawful excuse to comply with section 19 or 37, as you can do both without handling or using a firearm.

If you are under the influence and the police turn up at a reasonable time and make a request under section 37, you are still required to comply. If the police suspect your under the influence or you make admissions as such, the police will not (should not) allow you to handle or use the firearms when complying with section 37 and you should not handle them of your own accord (as its an offence) but you can be required to still "produce" them and its an offence if you don't.


bladeracer wrote:A very quick example of how Police will manipulate what you say. Many years ago I was convicted for a wheelie on a single word (this occurred in court so I assume is on the record). He claimed I did a wheelie, my first response was that I didn't think I had (I still don't believe I did as it occurred in fairly heavy city traffic, but he didn't pull me up until 2000m down the road, by which time I couldn't recall anything untoward having happened). He used my word "think" to show that I was not certain I hadn't done it...case closed. If an officer claims you did something, state that you did not, not that you don't think you did :-)
To protect public safety from such dangerous disdain for the law, he said I should expect a summons, and sent me on my way...and three months (of riding every day) later we went to court....


Yes "I don't think" in legal issues means "I don't remember but I may have." but a good example about understanding the usage of words in law.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 27 Oct 2021, 3:20 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Police have no reason to attempt to prove you are under the influence if you say you are, and you haven't committed any offence...if anything they would have to attempt to prove you were mistaken or lying, which seems entirely pointless....

Yes, I've stated several times that drink driving laws are very different from firearm laws, and very specific...

Again, if I tell a Police officer that I have ingested intoxicating substances that _I_ feel may impair my abilities to deal with him, why would he even attempt to prove otherwise? Why would he not simply make a appointment for a time to return at my convenience? Why is believing I am impaired not "reasonable" to avoid an _unannounced_ inspection? Why is it not reasonable that _I_ prefer to keep my safe keys somewhere safe rather than have them in my possession in that situation? It's certainly reasonable to not drive a vehicle if I believe I'm impaired in any way. My advice if you feel you may be intoxicated _at any level_ would be to politely refuse to enter into any discussion with Police, talking with Police can too easily bite you in the bum, even when totally sober. Simply state that you believe you are too impaired to deal with him at that time and ask him to set a date and time for the inspection. Claiming to be intoxicated while greeting Police for a prearranged inspection would be a very, very bad idea I think.


I think your confusion is due to not understanding the different laws in play and what certain words mean.

Police power to inspect the safe keeping and storage facilities for the firearm is section 19(2)(c) of the Act which is

Firearms Act section 19(2)(c)
the licensee must, in accordance with such arrangements as are agreed on by the licensee and the Commissioner, or, in the case of a licensed firearms dealer, at any reasonable time, permit inspection by a police officer (or such other person as may be prescribed by the regulations) of the licensee's facilities in respect of the storage and safe keeping of the firearms in the licensee's possession,,


In simple terms this means the police can inspect the storage and safe keeping of the firearms in the licensee's possession at a mutually agreed time. This power is only to inspect the facilities in respect of storage and safe keeping of firearms, not to inspect the firearms themselves and must be done at a mutually agreed time.

This means if you have made a mutually agreed time, you must allow inspection of the storage and safe keeping of firearms.

If you do not allow this inspection to take place, you have breached you licence conditions. Now depending on the circumstances as to why you refused or couldn't comply with the inspection, will dictate the action the police will take. ie if you're in hospital because you got hit by a bus vs you decided to get drunk prior to the inspection and then used it as an excuse not to allow access. (this excuse could also end up getting a prohibition order issued against you)

There is nothing in this law requiring you to handle or use the firearms when complying with this request.

Now Police also have the separate power to require you to produce a firearm for inspection

Firearms Act section 37
(1) The person in whose name a firearm is registered:
(a) must produce the firearm for inspection by a police officer at any reasonable time when requested to do so by the officer


I have explained already that reasonable time is in relation to a point in time, not a circumstance.

Now again, there is no lawful excuse not to comply with this request as long as its done at a reasonable time. This request is often made in conjunction with exercising the about powers in section 19 at the time of a storage inspection.

An important word in this section is "produce" in law it means to bring forward; to show or exhibit; to bring into view or notice

Again there is nothing in this law requiring you to handle or use the firearms.

Then we have the laws about restrictions where alcohol or other drugs concerned

Firearms Act section 64,
A person must not handle or use a firearm while the person is under the influence of alcohol or any other drug.


The important words here are "handle or use" I don't think I need to explain what these mean.

So with the above laws explained, you will see that being under the influence is not a lawful excuse to comply with section 19 or 37, as you can do both without handling or using a firearm.

If you are under the influence and the police turn up at a reasonable time and make a request under section 37, you are still required to comply. If the police suspect your under the influence or you make admissions as such, the police will not (should not) allow you to handle or use the firearms when complying with section 37, but you can be required to still "produce" them and its an offence if you don't.


bladeracer wrote:A very quick example of how Police will manipulate what you say. Many years ago I was convicted for a wheelie on a single word (this occurred in court so I assume is on the record). He claimed I did a wheelie, my first response was that I didn't think I had (I still don't believe I did as it occurred in fairly heavy city traffic, but he didn't pull me up until 2000m down the road, by which time I couldn't recall anything untoward having happened). He used my word "think" to show that I was not certain I hadn't done it...case closed. If an officer claims you did something, state that you did not, not that you don't think you did :-)
To protect public safety from such dangerous disdain for the law, he said I should expect a summons, and sent me on my way...and three months (of riding every day) later we went to court....


Yes "I don't think" in legal issues means "I don't remember but I may have." but a good example about understanding the usage of words in law.


I agree with you that legally, you would still have to comply with the law and allow a pre-scheduled inspection, but I don't believe Police would push you to do so in a self-confessed intoxicated state. Them handing the keys back to you afterwards, and what could potentially result if you forget to make them safe again just isn't worth signing the report - in my opinion. Nothing to do with you actually handling the firearms during the inspection. A sensible user would ensure their safe keys are somewhere secure before partaking of their drug of choice. Police would be crazy to force themselves into that situation, again in my own opinion. This is all about a simple storage inspection, not a criminal investigation. It just isn't worth the paperwork.

I think you have misunderstood the entire thread, this is all about Police making an _unscheduled_ visit for a storage inspection, in NSW, and what constitutes a reason to defer it. None of this is relevant to a prearranged visit for an inspection.

I should've clarified that my anecdote did not leave me with any ill feeling toward Police. The officer, I believe, acted as he believed he should have. I could not in all honesty call him a liar simply because it's sometimes difficult to recall that you did not do something rather innocuous (it's generally easy to recall that I have done a wheelie, not necessarily so easy to recall that the tyre didn't leave the ground over a specific piece of road), and he may well have been correct. I pleaded guilty and took it on the chin.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 27 Oct 2021, 3:23 pm

I can't find a Section 19(2)(c) in the NSW Firearms Act, and Section 19 is about licence applications?

Fionn wrote:I think your confusion is due to not understanding the different laws in play and what certain words mean.

Police power to inspect the safe keeping and storage facilities for the firearm is section 19(2)(c) of the Act which is

Firearms Act section 19(2)(c)
the licensee must, in accordance with such arrangements as are agreed on by the licensee and the Commissioner, or, in the case of a licensed firearms dealer, at any reasonable time, permit inspection by a police officer (or such other person as may be prescribed by the regulations) of the licensee's facilities in respect of the storage and safe keeping of the firearms in the licensee's possession,,
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by womble » 27 Oct 2021, 3:59 pm

rc42 wrote:
MontyShooter wrote:It's probably a 2 hour job just to get access to my safe now ...


This statement intrigued me.

Is this some crazy security like welding it up each time you close it and having to open it with an angle grinder?
Or maybe a cascade of safes like russian dolls where every time you open one there's another inside?
Or maybe a complex computer lock that needs you to correctly answer 50 personal questions before it will let you in?
What about a 500 digit passcode?

I'm struggling to think of ways that would take 2 hours, if you have a very messy house and memory issues so it takes 2 hours to find the safe each time then you probably don't want to mention that.


2 hours allows enough time to buy and install a safe :)
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 27 Oct 2021, 4:38 pm

womble wrote:2 hours allows enough time to buy and install a safe :)


And fill it in Victoria :-)
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by MontyShooter » 27 Oct 2021, 4:44 pm

rc42 wrote:
MontyShooter wrote:It's probably a 2 hour job just to get access to my safe now ...


This statement intrigued me.

Is this some crazy security like welding it up each time you close it and having to open it with an angle grinder?
Or maybe a cascade of safes like russian dolls where every time you open one there's another inside?
Or maybe a complex computer lock that needs you to correctly answer 50 personal questions before it will let you in?
What about a 500 digit passcode?

I'm struggling to think of ways that would take 2 hours, if you have a very messy house and memory issues so it takes 2 hours to find the safe each time then you probably don't want to mention that.


There's a caravan on axle stands that would need to be moved, along with a number of adv bikes etc. We've been locked down for months so no need to open the safe since maybe last summer.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Fionn » 27 Oct 2021, 6:01 pm

bladeracer wrote:I agree with you that legally, you would still have to comply with the law and allow a pre-scheduled inspection, but I don't believe Police would push you to do so in a self-confessed intoxicated state. Them handing the keys back to you afterwards, and what could potentially result if you forget to make them safe again just isn't worth signing the report - in my opinion. Nothing to do with you actually handling the firearms during the inspection. A sensible user would ensure their safe keys are somewhere secure before partaking of their drug of choice. Police would be crazy to force themselves into that situation, again in my own opinion. This is all about a simple storage inspection, not a criminal investigation. It just isn't worth the paperwork.


It's fine that its your opinion, but its not how the Police operate as doing so means the Police are taking on a unnecessary risk and would get your arse kicked for doing so.

Why is that so, you may ask?

On the flipside of your scenario, The police turn up to do and inspection of storage/firearms and the owner is drunk and says can you come back another time, so they do as you suggest arrange another time. They go away and later that day the owners 7 year old finds an unsecured firearm and accidently shoots their 5 year old sister.

The coroner investigates and finds out that Police where at the house earlier in the day to ensure the firearms where stored safety and securely, but because the owner was drunk, they declined to do the inspection and arranged to do it another day.

How do you think that would go down with the coroner and public?

If you turn up to do an inspection and the owner is drunk/under the influence etc, you are mandated by your duty of care to ensure the firearms are safety stored.

Not to do so is gross negligence.

bladeracer wrote:I think you have misunderstood the entire thread, this is all about Police making an _unscheduled_ visit for a storage inspection, in NSW, and what constitutes a reason to defer it. None of this is relevant to a prearranged visit for an inspection.


Not at all, that's why I explained the different laws.

Police in NSW can not do an unscheduled storage inspection, but that being said, they can require you to produce the firearms at any reasonable time. Whilst using that power, if they find the firearms not secured properly they can act on that also.

As they say "their is more than one way to skin cat"

bladeracer wrote:I should've clarified that my anecdote did not leave me with any ill feeling toward Police. The officer, I believe, acted as he believed he should have. I could not in all honesty call him a liar simply because it's sometimes difficult to recall that you did not do something rather innocuous (it's generally easy to recall that I have done a wheelie, not necessarily so easy to recall that the tyre didn't leave the ground over a specific piece of road), and he may well have been correct. I pleaded guilty and took it on the chin.


I didn't think it did, if you plead guilty it doesn't matter what you said anyway. Well unless you said you are pleading guilty but didn't do it, that always makes things interesting.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Fionn » 27 Oct 2021, 6:03 pm

bladeracer wrote:I can't find a Section 19(2)(c) in the NSW Firearms Act, and Section 19 is about licence applications?


http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/fa1996102/s19.html#:~:text=(c)%20the%20licensee,the%20licensee%27s%20possession%2Cl
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 27 Oct 2021, 7:12 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:I agree with you that legally, you would still have to comply with the law and allow a pre-scheduled inspection, but I don't believe Police would push you to do so in a self-confessed intoxicated state. Them handing the keys back to you afterwards, and what could potentially result if you forget to make them safe again just isn't worth signing the report - in my opinion. Nothing to do with you actually handling the firearms during the inspection. A sensible user would ensure their safe keys are somewhere secure before partaking of their drug of choice. Police would be crazy to force themselves into that situation, again in my own opinion. This is all about a simple storage inspection, not a criminal investigation. It just isn't worth the paperwork.


It's fine that its your opinion, but its not how the Police operate as doing so means the Police are taking on a unnecessary risk and would get your arse kicked for doing so.

Why is that so, you may ask?

On the flipside of your scenario, The police turn up to do and inspection of storage/firearms and the owner is drunk and says can you come back another time, so they do as you suggest arrange another time. They go away and later that day the owners 7 year old finds an unsecured firearm and accidently shoots their 5 year old sister.

The coroner investigates and finds out that Police where at the house earlier in the day to ensure the firearms where stored safety and securely, but because the owner was drunk, they declined to do the inspection and arranged to do it another day.

How do you think that would go down with the coroner and public?

If you turn up to do an inspection and the owner is drunk/under the influence etc, you are mandated by your duty of care to ensure the firearms are safety stored.

Not to do so is gross negligence.

bladeracer wrote:I think you have misunderstood the entire thread, this is all about Police making an _unscheduled_ visit for a storage inspection, in NSW, and what constitutes a reason to defer it. None of this is relevant to a prearranged visit for an inspection.


Not at all, that's why I explained the different laws.

Police in NSW can not do an unscheduled storage inspection, but that being said, they can require you to produce the firearms at any reasonable time. Whilst using that power, if they find the firearms not secured properly they can act on that also.

As they say "their is more than one way to skin cat"

bladeracer wrote:I should've clarified that my anecdote did not leave me with any ill feeling toward Police. The officer, I believe, acted as he believed he should have. I could not in all honesty call him a liar simply because it's sometimes difficult to recall that you did not do something rather innocuous (it's generally easy to recall that I have done a wheelie, not necessarily so easy to recall that the tyre didn't leave the ground over a specific piece of road), and he may well have been correct. I pleaded guilty and took it on the chin.


I didn't think it did, if you plead guilty it doesn't matter what you said anyway. Well unless you said you are pleading guilty but didn't do it, that always makes things interesting.


If the Police did not have a prearranged visit for the inspection, then leaving when you offer a reasonable excuse to defer covers them completely as that is exactly what the law states they have to do. If they want further powers then the Act needs to be changed. If you are clearly impaired then it could be argued that Police should make sure your firearms are securely stored, but I don't see that in the Act, and I don't see it coming under Duty of Care. People that own firearms are legally allowed to get as drunk as they want to in their own homes. We are talking about you deciding you are potentially impaired enough that you shouldn't be dealing with Police at that time, not stumbling around drunk.

Agreed about the "guilty but I dint do it" :-)
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 27 Oct 2021, 7:16 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:I can't find a Section 19(2)(c) in the NSW Firearms Act, and Section 19 is about licence applications?


http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/fa1996102/s19.html#:~:text=(c)%20the%20licensee,the%20licensee%27s%20possession%2Cl


Thanks for that, I was looking at the Regs, not the Act - oops :-)
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 27 Oct 2021, 7:27 pm

Fionn wrote:Police in NSW can not do an unscheduled storage inspection, but that being said, they can require you to produce the firearms at any reasonable time. Whilst using that power, if they find the firearms not secured properly they can act on that also.

As they say "their is more than one way to skin cat"


Do you have anything that supports your view that the Act means "reasonable time" as a "reasonable time of the day", as opposed to what I believe any English-speaking person would read as "a time that is reasonably suitable to the party concerned"?

I just don't see how "a reasonable time of day according to the clock" can be interpreted in the way you suggest. What is "reasonable" is entirely subjective, and it seems to me the Act is specifically including that clause to allow some leeway for the _licence holder_ to not be burdened with an unplanned for inspection, in keeping with the Act even requiring a pre-arrangement at all (why even mention having to prearrange if Police have zero requirement to do so?). You seem to be saying that the Act can be interpreted as "Police can inspect your firearms at any time _they_ deem reasonable". It might be reasonable for Police to be available for an unplanned visit at 0400 on a Sunday morning as that's when they have a vehicle patrolling the area. But it's not reasonable at all if I'm on holiday in another state for the weekend.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Fionn » 27 Oct 2021, 8:33 pm

bladeracer wrote:Do you have anything that supports your view that the Act means "reasonable time" as a "reasonable time of the day", as opposed to what I believe any English-speaking person would read as "a time that is reasonably suitable to the party concerned"?


What!, you mean the fact that the section in the Act states "reasonable time" isn't enough? :roll:

Reasonable in law is what an average and reasonable man (sorry ladies, old time stuff) on the Bondi tram would think as reasonable given all the information of the circumstances.

Time in law is the common usage, which is time of day/night. ie If you asked (request) a person to come over to your house at a reasonable time, its not what is reasonably suitable to the party concerned is it now.

But you need to read the section to understand its usage, it sates
"must produce the firearm for inspection by a police officer at any reasonable time"


As the police are making the request, all they need to prove is that the request was done at any reasonable time. To defend this, you would have to show the time they asked wasn't reasonable.

bladeracer wrote:I just don't see how "a reasonable time of day according to the clock" can be interpreted in the way you suggest. What is "reasonable" is entirely subjective, and it seems to me the Act is specifically including that clause to allow some leeway for the _licence holder_ to not be burdened with an unplanned for inspection, in keeping with the Act even requiring a pre-arrangement at all (why even mention having to prearrange if Police have zero requirement to do so?).


Yes, the Act allows leeway that you are not burden by police knocking at your door at 3am demanding you produce your firearms for inspection.
The Act says, pre-arranged inspections are required to see the storage, not for you to produce firearms for inspection.

These are 2 separate powers.

bladeracer wrote:You seem to be saying that the Act can be interpreted as "Police can inspect your firearms at any time _they_ deem reasonable". It might be reasonable for Police to be available for an unplanned visit at 0400 on a Sunday morning as that's when they have a vehicle patrolling the area. But it's not reasonable at all if I'm on holiday in another state for the weekend.


It’s not reasonable to the police, but reasonable to the man on the Bondi tram.

But yes, according to the law they can inspection your firearms at any reasonable time. If you are on holiday in another state, then you're are not there for them to request you produce the firearms for inspection, as part of points of proof for the offence they would have to prove that you knew about the request.

Simples
Last edited by Fionn on 27 Oct 2021, 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by boingk » 27 Oct 2021, 8:35 pm

Fionn wrote:Things


Of course, we have out-of-state holders trying to run the race.

1) In NSW they book ahead. If not they need a warrant unless you invite them inside. End of story - yes, I have mates in the job.

2) If you decline an inspection with no notice, or with a reasonable excuse, there is nothing they can do. "Oh, not a problem, we'll give you a call later to sort out a time". Otherwise... warrant.

3) If there is a domestic dispute they can seize any firearms on the premise. No warrant required.

Lets not play the 'what if game'. What if the sky (or one of the thousands of un-tracked pieces of 1km+ diameter space debris) fell right now and crushed us all? What then? We'd be fahrked, thats what.

You can't legislate against everything, and you certainly can't try and legislate so Police can gain access to private premise without a warrant or reasonable belief a serious offence is in progress or a life is in imminent danger. At least not in this damn state.

Much as bladeracer has said immediately above.
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