Safe inspection advice

Questions about New South Wales gun and ammunition laws. NSW Firearms Act 1996.

Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by dpskipper » 25 Oct 2021, 1:09 pm

bladeracer wrote:The law doesn't allow you to handle firearms if you have any intoxicant on-board, any.


No. the law says "under the influence" which is subjective to the officer at the time.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 1:16 pm

JS2600 wrote:Does anybody know if they are allowed to just lob without notice for an inspection?
And if not, can you refer me to a document saying so,

Thanks


Of course they can just show up. You are not required to let them in if it's inconvenient though, but I think it would be stupid to block them on principle, or because you have ammo strewn about the house.
Store your gear lawfully and don't worry about Police lobbing up.

If they show up because of a complaint from somebody then they likely won't even need a warrant if they have reason to believe a serious crime is being, or will be committed. Like maybe you took somebody shooting who is unlicensed and they happened to blab to a mate and somebody overheard the conversation and dialed 000. By the time Police arrive it's become a highly-organised terror cell importing AK's from Indonesia to overthrow the government. Police won't be happy when they find everything totally above board, and that the reported incident occurred lawfully under instruction at an approved range.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 1:22 pm

dpskipper wrote:
bladeracer wrote:The law doesn't allow you to handle firearms if you have any intoxicant on-board, any.


No. the law says "under the influence" which is subjective to the officer at the time.


Under the influence means any amount of intoxicant. How much it affects your abilities is subjective.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by dpskipper » 25 Oct 2021, 1:25 pm

bladeracer wrote:
dpskipper wrote:
bladeracer wrote:The law doesn't allow you to handle firearms if you have any intoxicant on-board, any.


No. the law says "under the influence" which is subjective to the officer at the time.


Under the influence means any amount of intoxicant. How much it affects your abilities is subjective.


If you've drunk only a bit and it's not on your breath, and undetectable from the cop how are you under the influence?
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 1:35 pm

No1_49er wrote:I think we need to be a bit cautious here.
The question was from JS2600, whose profile indicates that they are in NSW.
dpskipper (profile Victoria) has responded to the fairly specific question with info' from the WA Firearms ACT.
WTF?
I think that the best place to start would be the NSW Act and/or Regulations !!


There is zero requirement to live in a state to know and understand its laws. And knowing the laws in other states is important
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 1:37 pm

dpskipper wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
dpskipper wrote:
bladeracer wrote:The law doesn't allow you to handle firearms if you have any intoxicant on-board, any.


No. the law says "under the influence" which is subjective to the officer at the time.


Under the influence means any amount of intoxicant. How much it affects your abilities is subjective.


If you've drunk only a bit and it's not on your breath, and undetectable from the cop how are you under the influence?


Both of those are subjective pointers. You are under the influence because it is chemically within your system. The influence may be imperceptible even to yourself, but it still exists. And the law does not allow different levels of influence for handling firearms as it allows with driving on the roads.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by dpskipper » 25 Oct 2021, 1:42 pm

I disagree it would come down to case law and the interpretation of a judge to consider what the true meaning of "under the influence" meaned with respect to firearms.

There's plenty of case law out there already.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 1:51 pm

dpskipper wrote:I disagree it would come down to case law and the interpretation of a judge to consider what the true meaning of "under the influence" meaned with respect to firearms.

There's plenty of case law out there already.


Don't confuse it with the Road Traffic Act, which specifies a minimum blood-alcohol level before you can be charged for exceeding. The Firearms Act has no such minimum limit - any level of intoxication is prohibited when handling firearms.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 1:53 pm

dpskipper wrote:I disagree it would come down to case law and the interpretation of a judge to consider what the true meaning of "under the influence" meaned with respect to firearms.

There's plenty of case law out there already.


Also, we're not talking about courts here. If a person has ingested _any_ intoxicant they are perfectly able to make a decision to avoid handling firearms, regardless of what Police or courts say.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by dpskipper » 25 Oct 2021, 2:02 pm

No my point is that it would take a judge to consider if someone was under the influence. The firearms act provided no definition for what that term means.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 2:05 pm

dpskipper wrote:No my point is that it would take a judge to consider if someone was under the influence. The firearms act provided no definition for what that term means.


Exactly, so we use the English definition, as I have. Any level of intoxicant in your system constitutes intoxication.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by dpskipper » 25 Oct 2021, 2:12 pm

The English definition clearly states that you must be affected by it

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... fluence-of
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Communism_Is_Cancer » 25 Oct 2021, 2:18 pm

QLD law states “A person must not have physical possession of or use a weapon if the person is under the influence of liquor or a drug“.

There is no definition listed on what influence means but to me has always meant don't shoot and drink.

The court would have to make a ruling on what influence means in regards to the weapons act. Maybe they already have and ai have not seen it.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by dpskipper » 25 Oct 2021, 2:46 pm

Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:There is no definition listed on what influence means but to me has always meant don't shoot and drink.


This is my exact point. The road rules act provides a clear criteria for "under influence" which is >0.5BAC. Firearms act has no such mechanism. So it is upto the opinion of a police officer to even arrest/charge you over this offense. and it is then upto the opinion of the judge based on evidence supplied to the court.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 2:58 pm

dpskipper wrote:The English definition clearly states that you must be affected by it

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... fluence-of


If it's in your system you are being affected by it.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 3:00 pm

dpskipper wrote:
Communism_Is_Cancer wrote:There is no definition listed on what influence means but to me has always meant don't shoot and drink.


This is my exact point. The road rules act provides a clear criteria for "under influence" which is >0.5BAC. Firearms act has no such mechanism. So it is upto the opinion of a police officer to even arrest/charge you over this offense. and it is then upto the opinion of the judge based on evidence supplied to the court.


If you were charged then yes, of course a court makes the determination.
Refusing to allow an inspection because you have ingested an intoxicating substance is down to a decision by the person, not a court.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by RoginaJack » 25 Oct 2021, 3:48 pm

I thought the reading had to be under BAC levels of 0.05, not 0.50 BAC.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by dpskipper » 25 Oct 2021, 3:56 pm

RoginaJack wrote:I thought the reading had to be under BAC levels of 0.05, not 0.50 BAC.


very true, my decimals are as crosseyed as i am :drinks:
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 7:40 pm

RoginaJack wrote:I thought the reading had to be under BAC levels of 0.05, not 0.50 BAC.


I think .5% is only the Northern Territory ;-)
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by RoginaJack » 25 Oct 2021, 8:08 pm

:thumbsup: :lol: :lol: N.T. :lol:
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Fionn » 25 Oct 2021, 8:22 pm

bladeracer wrote:If it's in your system you are being affected by it.


Your understanding of the law here is simplistic and flawed.

In law, you are not under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug by it simply being present in your system.

Under the Influence means it's influencing the control (ability) you have to carry or use the firearm.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 8:46 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:If it's in your system you are being affected by it.


Your understanding of the law here is simplistic and flawed.

In law, you are not under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug by it simply being present in your system.

Under the Influence means it's influencing the control (ability) you have to carry or use the firearm.


Are you suggesting that Police can insist you handle firearms despite you making the decision not to, simply because they can't discern any symptoms of intoxication?
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Fionn » 25 Oct 2021, 9:11 pm

bladeracer wrote:Are you suggesting that Police can insist you handle firearms despite you making the decision not to, simply because they can't discern any symptoms of intoxication?


Police can not insist you handle firearms period.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 9:15 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Are you suggesting that Police can insist you handle firearms despite you making the decision not to, simply because they can't discern any symptoms of intoxication?


Police can not insist you handle firearms period.


Exactly, it's a decision left to us, including whether we are intoxicated.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Fionn » 25 Oct 2021, 9:33 pm

bladeracer wrote:Exactly, it's a decision left to us, including whether we are intoxicated.


Yes but it's got nothing to do with whether police can do a storage inspection.

There is no law that prevents you having access to firearms or firearm storage or providing access to police if your under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

The police are more then capable of handling the firearms themselves if need be or if your under the influence.

If you feel so strongly about not having access to them while under the influence, maybe start lobbying for alcohol interlocks to be mandatory on firearms storage.

Gun Control Australia would support your stance.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 10:01 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:Exactly, it's a decision left to us, including whether we are intoxicated.


Yes but it's got nothing to do with whether police can do a storage inspection.

There is no law that prevents you having access to firearms or firearm storage or providing access to police if your under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

The police are more then capable of handling the firearms themselves if need be or if your under the influence.

If you feel so strongly about not having access to them while under the influence, maybe start lobbying for alcohol interlocks to be mandatory on firearms storage.

Gun Control Australia would support your stance.


I don't think I said anything about my own view on this, only the legal definition.
You appear to be suggesting that I should be supporting having access to firearms while knowingly ingesting intoxicants?
You are also saying, that regardless of how intoxicated you are, Police can insist that you give them access to your firearms? I can't imagine too many officers want to be on the record with that situation rather than simply come back at a later time.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Fionn » 25 Oct 2021, 10:45 pm

bladeracer wrote:I don't think I said anything about my own view on this, only the legal definition.
You appear to be suggesting that I should be supporting having access to firearms while knowingly ingesting intoxicants?


Unless a licence firearm owner has an alcohol interlock fitted to their storage they currently have access to firearms while intoxicated.

There is no law that prohibits access to firearms while under the influence.

Their are laws about handling, carrying and using, under the influence but not access.

bladeracer wrote:You are also saying, that regardless of how intoxicated you are, Police can insist that you give them access to your firearms? I can't imagine too many officers want to be on the record with that situation rather than simply come back at a later time.
"Yes, he said he was intoxicated so we had him give us the keys. We inspected his storage, returned his keys, and left..."


I am saying being under the influence is not a legal excuse to not allow them access to your firearms.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by bladeracer » 25 Oct 2021, 11:38 pm

There is no law that prevents anything, that's impossible. Laws only allow a means of prosecution after the event.

Everybody has access to firearms if they have no regard for laws, hardly relevant to a discussion about lawfully accessing them.


Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:I don't think I said anything about my own view on this, only the legal definition.
You appear to be suggesting that I should be supporting having access to firearms while knowingly ingesting intoxicants?


Unless a licence firearm owner has an alcohol interlock fitted to their storage they currently have access to firearms while intoxicated.

There is no law that prohibits access to firearms while under the influence.

Their are laws about handling, carrying and using, under the influence but not access.

bladeracer wrote:You are also saying, that regardless of how intoxicated you are, Police can insist that you give them access to your firearms? I can't imagine too many officers want to be on the record with that situation rather than simply come back at a later time.
"Yes, he said he was intoxicated so we had him give us the keys. We inspected his storage, returned his keys, and left..."


I am saying being under the influence is not a legal excuse to not allow them access to your firearms.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Fionn » 26 Oct 2021, 7:27 am

bladeracer wrote:There is no law that prevents anything, that's impossible. Laws only allow a means of prosecution after the event.

Everybody has access to firearms if they have no regard for laws, hardly relevant to a discussion about lawfully accessing them.


Okay!

Now you are just arguing nonsense because I showed that you had a simplistic and flawed understanding of the law.
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Re: Safe inspection advice

Post by Communism_Is_Cancer » 26 Oct 2021, 9:38 am

QLD law states if you are in possession of a firearm you must produce the licence or firearm for inspection within 48 hours at a "reasonable place and time"

If you are in physical possession it must be immediately. The law distinguishes between possession and physical possession.

Being under what the licence holder preserves as the influence of liquor you have grounds to refuse a secure storage inspection as it is not a reasonable time..
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