Transportation of ammunition

[Rutabaga]

Hi guys,

I always transport my ammunition in a lock container (30 or 50 cal ammo can) out of habit. I've done on the understanding that this was required, even when not transporting a rifle with ammo.

But looking into it further, I'm not sure this is correct. There is scant info on safe non-commercial transport of ammunition. There also doesn't seem to be anything about it in the regulations.

There is a fact sheet on the NSW police website for the transportation of firearms (https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/as ... _Sheet.pdf) this states that where ammunition is transported with a C, D or H firearm the ammunition must be kept in a separate locked container. There are no state proscriptions on A and B firearms, save that it says that if you meet the requirements for C, D and H you will have satisfied the requirements for A and B.

This does not give any information on the transport of ammunition when you are not also carrying a firearm. For example, if I go to the gun shop and pick up a box of 223, do I need to lock this up to transport it home? Easy enough to do this with a couple of packs of 223, more a challenge for three flats of 12g shells.

Safer course obviously is to lock it up.

[Gamerancher]

The problem is always that the onus is on you to "secure" it. I'm pretty sure it is also written somewhere in the regs that it must be secured separately to any firearms when in transit. As always, the "reasonable precautions" written into the legislation is the crux of it all. It does state that if you satisfy the requirements for the higher category, commercial transport that you will be deemed to have taken all reasonable precautions.
I don't know about you or anyone else but I'm not willing to risk it over semantics.

[Rutabaga]

Yeah, I completely agree about the onus being on you, thus you should overdo it to be safe. The laws are sloppy, and if you are cynical you might conclude that this is deliberate to give maximum latitude to the exercise of discretionary powers.

Keeping ammo locked separately from firearms in transport seems to be the intent, and the fact sheet states that this is required for C, D and H, and best practice otherwise. However, that advice seems to be primarily focused on the safe transport of firearms with ammunition, not ammunition by itself. Again, a 'best practice' approach bearing in mind that the onus to secure anything firearm-related rests with you suggests that you should lock ammo in transport, but I can't find anything that actually says that this is required when there isnt concurrent transport of a firearm.

[boingk]

Hi mate, welcome to the forums.

If you drive a sedan I believe a locked car boot is perfectly acceptable for transport provided the vehicle is not unattended. A tray-mounted toolbox with a lock also works. Basically anything with a lock works.

The legislation says this:
"The Commissioner of Police has determined the following as the minimum standard applicable to the ammunition storage container and locking mechanisms for a licence or permit holder:
The ammunition container must be made of plastic, wood, metal or steel which is sturdy and not easily penetrated (ie cash box/ammunition box) and be fitted with a lock which is either:
1. An internal locking mechanism (ie cash box or similar) which is operated
by means of a key, combination lock or other similar locking mechanism
(ie pin number), OR
2. Locked by the use of a hasp and staple (or similar) and fitted with a
padlock.

The legislation refers to storage, and not transport. The main thing, reading between the lines, is that it is under your immediate control and is secured in a locked compartment of some kind so it isn't readily visible or accessible by anyone else.

Now, brass tacks here... I would argue that overall if you are transporting it without a firearm so long as it is reasonably out of sight and secured (boot, glovebox) you are okay. If you are stopped between the store and home and for some reason they find you have 1000 rounds of 12G in the boot then I'd be explaining you're on the way home to safely store them.

- boingk

[disco stu]

But the vehicle itself could be considered a container, and you can lock it. Would you be covered if you put your 1000 shells in the back of your wagon, hopped in, locked the doors and drove home?

I do recall reading of an incident where a guy was pulled over doing a range of things definitely wrong with a rifle in car including ammunition laying in the centre console visible. The judge threw the ammunition part out saying that because it was in the car it met the requirements.

Not that I would want to test it and argue the point on that one. But the question asked is very valid and I've been following with interest. I own 2 wagons, what would I do if I wanted to buy a whole heap of ammunition that didn't fit in my ammo box or glove box

[cz515]

Cars with boots are probably the lowest in history.

As SUV, hatchback, wagon and utes/4wd don't have a locked boot

[AZZA'S HJ47]

Personally i have chosen to go a little over board in this department. I have a lock box thats bolted to the vehicle (in the boot) that i use to store my ammo and bolts.
Main problem being that the law is open to interpretation i had one cop when i left belmont (conveniently parked 100m up the road) he thought it was a great idea and off i went.

I had another cop when i went through a rbt and he didnt like the fact that everything was in the boot even though all of the bolts and anmo was in a seperate ammo box both bolted and padlocked to the vehicle.

Seems to be damed if you do damed if you don't.

[boingk]

But the vehicle itself could be considered a container, and you can lock it. Would you be covered if you put your 1000 shells in the back of your wagon, hopped in, locked the doors and drove home?

I'd argue yes, yes you would. As you mention there is case law for it.

The other thing you need to look at is the prospect of actually getting stopped. How many breath tests have you had? How many random stops in traffic? I sued to get a few as a young bloke in a Valiant with a provisional license but pretty much never since then.

And what happens if stopped? Morning Sir, you've been stopped for a random breath test. Can I see your license? Have you had alcohol today? Count to five into the end of this device. Thanks, have a good day.

If the stuff you're carrying isn't overtly screaming out "Ammunition Here!" then I wouldn't be mentioning it. I carry a picnic blanket in the back for stuff like this, even just carrying cased rifles to the range / hunting trip I prefer to have them out of immediate sight.

Lets for a second imagine they do ask what the big case is in the back and you reply 'ammunition'. They get a bit weird, you counter with "Here's my license for it, I've just come from the shop and I'm going straight home, here's the receipt with the timestamp." What would a reasonable officer do then? I dare say they'd take it at face value and tell you "very well then, see you later." Perhaps they'll perform some checks to make sure the license is indeed valid and that the shop did indeed sell you the stuff. Few minutes at most. Perhaps another quick question or two about the volume and why its required. "Its much cheaper in volume and I do use a bit at the club, I only buy every so often". And you're on your way.

At least that's how I'd argue it would happen 99.8% of the time. I'm sure there would be officers who would do otherwise, but I dare say the law is actually on your side for this one. And that's even if it becomes an issue in the first place.

- boingk

[disco stu]

Yeah, I can't remember the last time I was stopped for an rbt. And whenever it was it would have been one of the ones where they stop bunches if cars driving past, rather than being pulled over by police car (whatever that's called). I also don't drive cars that scream "hunter/shooter" and make sure I don't have club sticker on car etc.

I feel you're right that 99+% they would just check you're right and send you on the way. It's just the potential for stress and drama by the potential .2% has driven the initial question I imagine. Plus the different interpretation by various police. Hope I never have to find out for certain. Not that I go through enough ammunition to make it hard to fit in easy storage.

But given CZs point about not many cars with lockable boots, how would Azza's friendly cop feel about that one.

I love how they write these rules, are very specific, have heavy penalties, but don't actually consider all normal circumstances

[boingk]

I love how they write these rules, are very specific, have heavy penalties, but don't actually consider all normal circumstances

Can't fault you on that one mate.

If you are ever after legislation use judcom.nsw.gov.au and find the lawcode, it'll link you to legislation.nsw.gov.au and from there you can find what you want easily.

If anything were to go before a court it doesn't matter WTF it says in a three-colour printed 'Safety Bulletin' on the Police website, the law is what you'll be charged and taken to court with.

Those bulletins, by the way, reference 40(1)(d) of the Act 1996. That section (1) reads:

The holder of a category A or category B licence must comply with the following requirements in respect of any firearm to which the licence applies

And the subsection (d) specifically reads as follows;

any ammunition for the firearm must be stored in a locked container of a type approved by the Commissioner and that is kept separate from the receptacle containing any such firearm

So, its ambiguous at best. What about transport? Transport isn't storage. They just mention to store it in a lockable container.

If you want to confuddle the powers at be if they start to get narky I'd follow that master we all have, including them - the law. So, the RBT goes bad. A short and frustrated bloke/chick in uniform is starting to ask things you don't want to answer after you've already been obliging. Perhaps a quick reality check is in order to cool things off a notch.

"Sorry Sir (or Ma'am), but I happened to look up the law before I went and did this. Yeah I did, I did. Bear with me just a second. I looked up the bulletin on the Police website and it said look to 40(1)(d) of the Firearms Act 1996. It just said to store ammunition in a locked container seperate from firearms... but didn't say anything at all about just transporting the ammunition. I took from that if I were to take it straight home, no stops, and store it in my lockbox away from firearms I would be complying... am I not? My vehicle is locked until I get out of it, then I take the ammunition straight inside and store it in a lockbox. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm really not, but thats just what I read from the Police website."

And that, my friends, is what may be referred to as issuing a punch right in the back of the throat courtesy of the long, hard member of the law. It is masters of us all, uniform or not.

[Rutabaga]

Yeah I agree boingk. If you take the law/guidance to the logical extreme, you could say that a hunter needs to keep ammo locked up separately until he is ready to take the shot. Hopefully you've got a compliant deer who will wait for you to get yourself ready.

The RBT scenario does seem a little unlikely, especially if you are polite and don't volunteer too much info. One that I think about more is you are driving home from the shop and get in an accident that gets the police involved. Worst case scenario, you wake up in hospital to hear that you've had your guns confiscated because police rescue found that box of 22 you were taking home. Even if you are 'in the right' and argue it out in court, it's going to be expensive and stressful and simply not worth the risk.

Hey Boingk, are you the same Boingk who was on AHB about 15 years ago? If so, thanks for your help back then too!

[disco stu]

That's good info for getting to the source, thanks

[big matt]

I remember being told at a local gun shop when I got some ammo, it's fine in the plastic bag with the receipt as long as you're going straight home. I wasn't carrying any guns in the car just the ammo...

[rc42]

With no state having clear guidance on this issue and no restrictions on buying firearms and ammunition at the same time the packaging that they both have when leaving a gun store must be deemed as acceptable for use during transport, and that's typically just cardboard boxes and plastic bags.

The boot of the car would reasonably be classed as a locked metal container although it's less clear if you have a hatchback or UTE and have to put everything on the floor with a coat or blanket over it. I guess in such cases you couldn't have an unlicensed passenger sitting closer to the guns/ammo than you are but again, there's no useful guidance on this.

[boingk]

The RBT scenario does seem a little unlikely, especially if you are polite and don't volunteer too much info. One that I think about more is you are driving home from the shop and get in an accident that gets the police involved.

Hey Boingk, are you the same Boingk who was on AHB about 15 years ago? If so, thanks for your help back then too!

Yeah the accident scenario would be a doozy. Pays to be cautious I guess. Again, what are the odds?

Yeah, same guy from AHB haha. What'd I help with? I still drop back there every once in a while.

[womble]

Yeah I agree boingk. If you take the law/guidance to the logical extreme, you could say that a hunter needs to keep ammo locked up separately until he is ready to take the shot. Hopefully you've got a compliant deer who will wait for you to get yourself ready.

[womble]

I think it would be a charge thats lumped in with other charges if you’ve been behaving like a cowboy.

I have a box on the passenger seat. It has a padlock that can be locked. I have different rounds on different velcro strip shell holders. ( i actually colour code them because I’m a nerd )
And velcro on buttstocks. I’m good to go when opportunity presents.
I hope thats legal.

The box is always in the ute anyway, so buying ammo it just becomes habit.

The laws are intentionally vague to allow for a great deal of flexibility in enforcement. If you are being a good boy you should’nt have a problem.
But sometimes, theres been cases where somebody didn’t get their donuts for breakfast.

I think you need to view common sense from a police perspective. They’re looking for theft prevention. Anything on public display attracts the wrong people.

[Rutabaga]

Yeah, same guy from AHB haha. What'd I help with? I still drop back there every once in a while.

[/quote]

Can't recall to be honest. The usual range of newbie questions I'm sure. Just for some reason your handle seems to have lodged permanently in my brain. Can't remember my anniversary, but that's gone into long-term storage. Go figure!

[Communism_Is_Cancer]

Personally i have chosen to go a little over board in this department. I have a lock box thats bolted to the vehicle (in the boot) that i use to store my ammo and bolts.
Main problem being that the law is open to interpretation i had one cop when i left belmont (conveniently parked 100m up the road) he thought it was a great idea and off i went.

I had another cop when i went through a rbt and he didnt like the fact that everything was in the boot even though all of the bolts and anmo was in a seperate ammo box both bolted and padlocked to the vehicle.

Seems to be damed if you do damed if you don't.

You store the bolt with the ammunition? In the same lock box or a different lock box? You mentioned Belmont so I assume Queensland. The bolt is a major firearms component and according to the Weapons Act definition of a firearm is A FIREARM!

So unless you are aware of caselaw discussing the issue I think you may be committing an offence in storing a firearm with ammunition.

[disco stu]

I've always thrown bolt in the locked ammo box, thinking it's only logical to have it locked somehow. But I recall reading something similar in nsw regs that made me double think, I think it was pretty much exactly the same as you say CIC.

Major could use some defining there. Does it mean anything that a firearm needs to operate, like firing spring, or the large easily recognisable firearm parts like barrel?

[Communism_Is_Cancer]

See attached photo of the meaning of a major component according to the Weapons Act.

[Oldbloke]

I'm in Vic.
If away traveling I sometimes lock the bolt in my ammo box. Esp if its unlikely to be used for a few days. IMO it improves security.

[disco stu]

Thanks cic, somewhat clearly defined there

[Communism_Is_Cancer]

Putting bolts and magazines in a locked container with ammo during transportation to and fro an approved activity should not be a crime as it is convenient and in noway harmful to society . But looking at the law as it is written I think that it is. At least in Queensland.

A lot of things should not be a crime but alas they are.

[Communism_Is_Cancer]

Ammunition in Queensland has nothing to do with firearms. It comes under the explosives act which is part of the department of Natural Resources, Mines and Energy. Police can charge you for an ammunition offence under the explosives act if they physically catch you in violation but as far as I am aware, unlike firearms they have no authority to inspect ammunition.

But this and the aforementioned is not legal advise, I am merely giving my understanding of the law. Seek legal advise if needed and keep your mouth shut when interacting with the government until at time you seek legal advise.

[Oldbloke]

Putting bolts and magazines in a locked container with ammo during transportation to and fro an approved activity should not be a crime as it is convenient and in noway harmful to society . But looking at the law as it is written I think that it is. At least in Queensland.

A lot of things should not be a crime but alas they are.

Certainly looks that way in NSW

[Oldbloke]

I think it would be a charge thats lumped in with other charges if you’ve been behaving like a cowboy.

I have a box on the passenger seat. It has a padlock that can be locked. I have different rounds on different velcro strip shell holders. ( i actually colour code them because I’m a nerd )
And velcro on buttstocks. I’m good to go when opportunity presents.
I hope thats legal.

The box is always in the ute anyway, so buying ammo it just becomes habit.

The laws are intentionally vague to allow for a great deal of flexibility in enforcement. If you are being a good boy you should’nt have a problem.
But sometimes, theres been cases where somebody didn’t get their donuts for breakfast.

I think you need to view common sense from a police perspective. They’re looking for theft prevention. Anything on public display attracts the wrong people.

Womble has the right idea. And do not attract attention to your self.