Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Questions about New South Wales gun and ammunition laws. NSW Firearms Act 1996.

Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by jwai86 » 27 May 2022, 5:53 pm

The last thread about my current situation got locked because of certain replies, so I hope posting about what has happened since doesn't end up the same way.

After my Category A/B licence application was rejected in late April, my club has stood me down from shooting because they are expecting that my PPL application (submitted in late December 2020) will also be rejected, and don't want to expose themselves to legal trouble by letting me continue shooting under a P650.

The club has commenced efforts to sell off my CZ 75B and its related gear, although nobody in the club has made a definite offer to buy it yet. If it doesn't get bought by someone within the club or range, it will probably go up on Used Guns.

Meanwhile, my PPL application still remains undecided, and attempts to follow it up with the Firearms Registry have gone nowhere. As much as a decision is highly unlikely to be in my favour, I see no reason to concede while none has been made.

The catch is that my club membership is up for renewal in August, and if a decision hasn't been made by then, I would have to renew my membership to keep the application alive despite being unable to participate in the club's shooting activities.

This week, I lodged a complaint with the NSW Law Enforcement Conduct Commission to see if that does anything to force a conclusion. The commission told me that it should take 4-6 weeks to assess my complaint, but it's not like I haven't already been waiting for more than a year for the Registry to make a decision.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by Fionn » 27 May 2022, 7:48 pm

The LECC won't do anything much as it's not serious maladministration.

There is no chance you will get it given your A/B was refused.

Now if by some chance they did issue it to you, then that maybe regarded as serious maladministration.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by jwai86 » 29 May 2022, 12:14 pm

Fortunately, it will be the commission that gets to make that call, not you. Don't bother replying if you are incapable of not coming off as a condescending tool.
Last edited by jwai86 on 29 May 2022, 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by dnedative » 29 May 2022, 1:31 pm

I cant see the LECC doing anything, it exists to investigate serious criminal misconduct not administrative issues. They will handball it back to the police and it will probably end up as a decision for the commissioner to make and I reckon anything to do with a pistol that hits his desk these days gets scratched.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by jwai86 » 29 May 2022, 1:39 pm

dnedative wrote:I cant see the LECC doing anything, it exists to investigate serious criminal misconduct not administrative issues. They will handball it back to the police and it will probably end up as a decision for the commissioner to make and I reckon anything to do with a pistol that hits his desk these days gets scratched.

Well, the LECC was who the NSW Ombudsman told me to try contacting when they said they couldn't help me with my issue, so here we are.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by Fionn » 29 May 2022, 3:25 pm

jwai86 wrote:Fortunately, it will be the commission that gets to make that call, not you. Don't bother replying if you are incapable of not coming off as a condescending tool.


The commission has no power to make NSW Police do anything on this matter except to get them to give an explanation for their actions.

There is an almost zero chance you will get a licence unless NSW Police stuff up.

There is no time limit within the legislation that they are require to give a decision by. So your compliant will be forwarded to NSW Police and you will get a response ranging from, Refused - delayed due to COVID etc though to the matter is under investigation.

As I said before, be careful about walking yourself into an offence as Its not uncommon at all for mentally ill people to try and get access to firearms for a number of reasons, but once identified it flags an investigation and your P650 issues would be a concern.

Oh an if you don't like my posts because they aren't telling you what you want to hear, :violin: add me to your ignore list :thumbsup:
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by bladeracer » 29 May 2022, 3:48 pm

Fionn wrote:
jwai86 wrote:Fortunately, it will be the commission that gets to make that call, not you. Don't bother replying if you are incapable of not coming off as a condescending tool.


The commission has no power to make NSW Police do anything on this matter except to get them to give an explanation for their actions.

There is an almost zero chance you will get a licence unless NSW Police stuff up.

There is no time limit within the legislation that they are require to give a decision by. So your compliant will be forwarded to NSW Police and you will get a response ranging from, Refused - delayed due to COVID etc though to the matter is under investigation.

As I said before, be careful about walking yourself into an offence as Its not uncommon at all for mentally ill people to try and get access to firearms for a number of reasons, but once identified it flags an investigation and your P650 issues would be a concern.

Oh an if you don't like my posts because they aren't telling you what you want to hear, :violin: add me to your ignore list :thumbsup:


I don't like your posts because you _consistently_ tell people that mental illness makes you ineligible to hold a licence or access firearms, which is garbage. Only very specific mental illnesses are an issue.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by Fionn » 29 May 2022, 4:13 pm

bladeracer wrote:I don't like your posts because you _consistently_ tell people that mental illness makes you ineligible to hold a licence or access firearms, which is garbage. Only very specific mental illnesses are an issue.


I consistently tell people because that is the position the NSW police take and by the way the refusal is for not being a fit and proper person or of unsound mind which definition is far boarder then the definition of mental illness.

NSW Police stance is well documented if you cared to do some research.

But, happy to explore your argument, where in the legislation does it list which "very specific mental illness" it applies to or any mental illness in fact?
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by bladeracer » 29 May 2022, 4:34 pm

Fionn wrote:
bladeracer wrote:I don't like your posts because you _consistently_ tell people that mental illness makes you ineligible to hold a licence or access firearms, which is garbage. Only very specific mental illnesses are an issue.


I consistently tell people because that is the position the NSW police take and by the way the refusal is for not being a fit and proper person or of unsound mind which definition is far boarder then the definition of mental illness.

NSW Police stance is well documented if you cared to do some research.

But, happy to explore your argument, where in the legislation does it list which "very specific mental illness" it applies to or any mental illness in fact?


I posted it online for you in the last discussion you tried this in.
https://enoughgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=16688&p=289839#p289772
"It asks if "f) In the past 12 months been treated or referred for treatment for alcoholism, drug dependence or
a mental illness within the meaning of the Mental Health Act 2007 or as a mentally disordered
person within the meaning of that Act?"

Under the Act this means "In NSW, the Mental Health Act 2007 defines mental illness as a “condition that seriously impairs, either temporarily or permanently, the mental functioning of a person and is characterised by the presence in the person of any one or more of the following symptoms: (a) delusions (b) hallucinations (c) serious disorder of thought form (d) a severe disturbance of mood (e) sustained or repeated irrational behaviour indicating the presence of any one or more of the symptoms referred to above”."
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by Fionn » 29 May 2022, 5:38 pm

bladeracer wrote:I posted it online for you in the last discussion you tried this in.
https://enoughgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=16688&p=289839#p289772
"It asks if "f) In the past 12 months been treated or referred for treatment for alcoholism, drug dependence or
a mental illness within the meaning of the Mental Health Act 2007 or as a mentally disordered
person within the meaning of that Act?"

Under the Act this means "In NSW, the Mental Health Act 2007 defines mental illness as a “condition that seriously impairs, either temporarily or permanently, the mental functioning of a person and is characterised by the presence in the person of any one or more of the following symptoms: (a) delusions (b) hallucinations (c) serious disorder of thought form (d) a severe disturbance of mood (e) sustained or repeated irrational behaviour indicating the presence of any one or more of the symptoms referred to above”."


That's for a P650, I am talking about a licence application, two completely separate things.

Licence applications are rejected (in context) either for not being a fit and proper person or for being of unsound mind, neither of which are defined in the act so rely on common/case law.

These are complex areas of law that are challenged and decided in the Supreme or High Court.

So as to your argument, where in the legislation does it state which "very specific mental illness" it applies to (or any mental illness) that needs to be considered in a licence application as you only need to meet the fit and proper person requirement and the not of unsound mind.

I would love to know what "very specific mental illness" it applies too? is their time limits on when diagnosed? last episode? do you need a sane certificate?

Now unsound mind generally means a state of mental disease or natural mental infirmity, but as its not defined in the Act its open to a broader interruption then this.

But it could include, Autism, ADHD, OCD, Depression, PTSD to name a few.

Fit and proper person is also very broad, but thanks to Mr Bond (no not 007) its been tested in the high court, but doesn't really help in this scenario.

Also have you researched NSW Police position on Mental illness and firearm owners of late? A lot has changed in recent years.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by bladeracer » 29 May 2022, 5:58 pm

So you are sticking with your "any mental illness" excludes somebody from holding a licence, though you agree it is not defined in the law anyway?
I disagree, there are mental illnesses that are irrelevant.


Fionn wrote:That's for a P650, I am talking about a licence application, two completely separate things.

Licence applications are rejected (in context) either for not being a fit and proper person or for being of unsound mind, neither of which are defined in the act so rely on common/case law.

These are complex areas of law that are challenged and decided in the Supreme or High Court.

So as to your argument, where in the legislation does it state which "very specific mental illness" it applies to (or any mental illness) that needs to be considered in a licence application as you only need to meet the fit and proper person requirement and the not of unsound mind.

I would love to know what "very specific mental illness" it applies too? is their time limits on when diagnosed? last episode? do you need a sane certificate?

Now unsound mind generally means a state of mental disease or natural mental infirmity, but as its not defined in the Act its open to a broader interruption then this.

But it could include, Autism, ADHD, OCD, Depression, PTSD to name a few.

Fit and proper person is also very broad, but thanks to Mr Bond (no not 007) its been tested in the high court, but doesn't really help in this scenario.

Also have you researched NSW Police position on Mental illness and firearm owners of late? A lot has changed in recent years.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by Fionn » 29 May 2022, 7:33 pm

bladeracer wrote:So you are sticking with your "any mental illness" excludes somebody from holding a licence, though you agree it is not defined in the law anyway?
I disagree, there are mental illnesses that are irrelevant.


So you concede your post before about mental illness was incorrect and only applied to P650?

But no, I am not saying "any mental illness" excludes somebody from holding a licence, I am saying that any "any mental illness" may exclude somebody from holding a licence and that NSW Police position on the matter and the law is far broader then you think.

While the OP didn't post the reason for the refusal, it would have been on the grounds of fit and proper person or of unsound mind.

Have you done any research on the matter? The SSAA have been vocal on it and how its being applied. They have been vocal on how it is leading farmers etc not to seek medical help for minor mental health issues in case they lose their firearms.

You still haven't put up any decent argument or facts to support your view that its only selected mental illness, nor have you be able to explain what included and excluded in your view.

So explain your argument and how you have formed your views and what facts you have based it on.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by Larry » 29 May 2022, 9:17 pm

So bad luck to the OP whao asked that it not descend to this and ftom Fionn from making any further comment.

Mods lock it up again.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by Fionn » 30 May 2022, 10:34 am

Larry wrote:So bad luck to the OP whao asked that it not descend to this and ftom Fionn from making any further comment.

Mods lock it up again.


Its a discussion forum, if you don't want an issue discussed, then don't post it on a discussion forum. Simples :unknown:

If you don't want to see my post, place me on your ignore list. Simples :unknown:
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by deye243 » 31 May 2022, 1:05 am

Larry wrote:So bad luck to the OP whao asked that it not descend to this and ftom Fionn from making any further comment.

Mods lock it up again.

How WOKE of you ...... sounds like cancel culture.......
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by bullzeye » 31 May 2022, 8:57 am

jwai86 wrote:Meanwhile, my PPL application still remains undecided, and attempts to follow it up with the Firearms Registry have gone nowhere. As much as a decision is highly unlikely to be in my favour, I see no reason to concede while none has been made.


If you don't want to concede yet, then renewing your club membership is the way to go.

Unfortunately if you have been rejected for Cat A/B, they wouldn't approve a PPL/ Cat H license unless they do so in error.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by jwai86 » 31 May 2022, 12:17 pm

bullzeye wrote:
jwai86 wrote:Meanwhile, my PPL application still remains undecided, and attempts to follow it up with the Firearms Registry have gone nowhere. As much as a decision is highly unlikely to be in my favour, I see no reason to concede while none has been made.


If you don't want to concede yet, then renewing your club membership is the way to go.

Unfortunately if you have been rejected for Cat A/B, they wouldn't approve a PPL/ Cat H license unless they do so in error.

I get that my PPL application is dead in the water, but I haven't withdrawn it yet as a matter of principle. It should be easy for the Registry to put two and two together regarding my failed Category A/B application and my current PPL application, but they are dragging things out without an official conclusion rather than getting them over with.

I've now lodged a freedom of information request with NSW Police to at least see what the Registry has considered beyond what they mentioned in the notice of refusal email for my Category A/B application, and maybe find out what's going on with my PPL application. I think that'll do more good for me than being talked down to by some twat who thinks he knows it all.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by Larry » 31 May 2022, 6:33 pm

IMHO you should appeal the decision of your Cat A/B License. They give you 28 days I think to lodge an application. Start with the A/B and get it appealed its your best bet otherwise you are ineligible to apply for 2 years. Then you will have to answer the question Have you ever been refused a license with a yes which will always put you in the hard basket to be examined.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by jwai86 » 31 May 2022, 7:33 pm

Larry wrote:IMHO you should appeal the decision of your Cat A/B License. They give you 28 days I think to lodge an application. Start with the A/B and get it appealed its your best bet otherwise you are ineligible to apply for 2 years. Then you will have to answer the question Have you ever been refused a license with a yes which will always put you in the hard basket to be examined.

I would have done so already if I had the money to burn on a lawyer to help me run an appeal through the relevant tribunal. I spoke to a lawyer earlier about this, and he estimated an appeal would cost around $10,000, and the odds of success would still be low.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by bigrich » 01 Jun 2022, 8:05 am

i've breifly scanned the previous posts , but on what grounds has the A/B license application been rejected ? has a reason been given ? everybody on this forum is a avatar and a unknown really ,and sorry if i'm wrong to the OP , but could there be legitamate grounds for the application being rejected ?

fionn and blade can commence arguing this point now........ :P

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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by dnedative » 04 Jun 2022, 6:34 pm

bigrich wrote:......could there be legitamate grounds for the application being rejected ?



:thumbsup:
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by Fionn » 04 Jun 2022, 7:16 pm

jwai86 wrote:I would have done so already if I had the money to burn on a lawyer to help me run an appeal through the relevant tribunal. I spoke to a lawyer earlier about this, and he estimated an appeal would cost around $10,000, and the odds of success would still be low.


You could have requested an internal review of the decision, that would have not cost you anything.

Also you don't need a lawyer for NCAT.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by Fionn » 04 Jun 2022, 7:30 pm

bigrich wrote:i've breifly scanned the previous posts , but on what grounds has the A/B license application been rejected ? has a reason been given ? everybody on this forum is a avatar and a unknown really ,and sorry if i'm wrong to the OP , but could there be legitamate grounds for the application being rejected ?

fionn and blade can commence arguing this point now........ :P

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:


They haven't given the reason except that it was rejected in part due to their own psychiatrist report on them. So you could say that's legitimate grounds for the application being rejected.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by jwai86 » 08 Jun 2022, 11:37 am

Fionn wrote:You could have requested an internal review of the decision, that would have not cost you anything.

Also you don't need a lawyer for NCAT.

As much as it bothers me to admit it, your post reminded me that an internal review is still possible.

I spoke to my psychiatrist last week about what has happened and read the report he sent them. My psychiatrist had been careful to provide yes/no answers or otherwise brief responses to avoid potential openings, but he said that he has concerns about the Registry's expectations regarding the questions in the report about the possibility of relapse given that he can't provide 'ironclad guarantees' about what might occur in the future. The Registry appears to have latched onto what he wrote there when making its decision.

I requested an internal review on Monday night. I submitted it later than the prescribed 28 days from the decision date, but I got a reply from the registry yesterday that stated that they are giving me an extension of time until the end of August to submit information to support my case.

There might still be some hope yet. Not a lot, but better than nothing.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by Fionn » 08 Jun 2022, 3:34 pm

An internal review is a good first step, although it likely will still be rejected. What it does is give you more detail on what they based their decision on. Which will be helpful in a NCAT case.

As I said before, you don't need a lawyer to go to NCAT, you can do it yourself and won't cost you anything except the application fee (not sure if there is one or not in NSW) and your time.

NSW police may just be trying to shift liability on the matter to NCAT as they don't want to held accountable for issuing someone with mental health history a licence. Far easier and in my opinion better that these decisions should be made by NCAT.

As instead of your doctor relying on a template form to fill out, they can give a detailed report on your suitability. You can also gather character references/witnesses to testify that you are suitable and why.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by jwai86 » 08 Jun 2022, 4:15 pm

I'm aware that I don't need a lawyer to appeal through NCAT, but I am not confident about running my own legal case by myself.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by Fionn » 08 Jun 2022, 7:22 pm

jwai86 wrote:I'm aware that I don't need a lawyer to appeal through NCAT, but I am not confident about running my own legal case by myself.


NCAT is intended for people to appear on their own behalf, the worst that can happen is you lose, so end up where you are now.

There isn't much of legal case you need to run, the police run their case and why they rejected the application, you provide evidence that disputes or explains it. (this is why its a good idea to do the internal review) ie get your doctor to explain why he answered the way he did about relapse and that he doesn't think your a danger etc. Plus evidence such as witnesses or references (who are respected in the community) who will testify that you should be granted it and not a danger etc.

Helpful also, if you come across as a sane, responsible and reasonable person during the hearings that has a good job and stable living/working life.

As I said before, the police maybe just shifting liability to NCAT and won't fight the matter very hard. I am surprised you don't know this working in government? if you don't, its something you need to learn as its common practise.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by jwai86 » 08 Jun 2022, 7:53 pm

Fionn wrote:As I said before, the police maybe just shifting liability to NCAT and won't fight the matter very hard. I am surprised you don't know this working in government? if you don't, its something you need to learn as its common practise.

Significant disputes in my line of work are more likely to be resolved either through the agency's own review processes or a negotiated settlement before litigation through a tribunal or court is seriously considered.

Anyway, I checked the NCAT website just then, and it said for firearms licences that I need to go through the internal review process before I can apply to the tribunal. Just as well that I looked.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by jwai86 » 09 Jun 2022, 5:07 pm

Yesterday, I let the review officer know of the existence of my undecided PPL application, that my club stood me down from shooting activities once I told them of my rejected Category A/B application, and that I do not possess any firearms nor have I been able to use any since receiving that decision.

Today, they wrote to me saying that my PPL application will (finally) be refused, but I can add that to the internal review once I receive the refusal notice.
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Re: Stuck in an impossible situation re: PPL application

Post by jwai86 » 24 Nov 2022, 3:49 pm

Nearly six months later, I can happily report that I received the review decision from the Registry today. The decisions to refuse my Category A/B and PPL applications have been put aside, so the process of issuing those licences will begin shortly. Thus ends a two year long slog.
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