Shooting "near" a public place

[joneda1]

I am on a property across the road from residences. I am looking to shoot foxes which frequent my property. I have several shooting positions which will allow me to safely shoot in the direction of a large hill which provides an effective backstop. This means absolutely no shooting in the direction of the road and other residences.

The NSW Crime Act (93G) paraphrased, states: "Any person who fires a firearm or spear gun in or near a public place, or carries or fires a firearm or spear gun in a manner likely to injure, or endanger the safety of, himself or herself or any other person or any property, or with disregard for the safety of himself or herself or any other person, is liable to imprisonment for 10 years.

The one part of this I'd like to understand is what is considered "near" in this context. I expect I would be shooting from positions which would be at least 30m from my road boundary and separated by a thick band of trees. I have carefully planned my shooting so that, as noted above, I would never be shooting towards the road and I would always be shooting towards a backstop which is a roughly 40-60m high hill which is unoccupied and not generally traversed by people.

To add a bit to this post, the Crimes Act also includes this part in relation to discharging a firearm:

" A person is not guilty of an offence under this section for possessing or doing anything referred to in subsection (1) if the person satisfies the court that he or she had a reasonable excuse for possessing it or doing it or possessed it or did it for a lawful purpose."

I guess this also raises the question of what is a lawful purpose. Is shooting on rural land within the conditions of your licence a lawful activity?

Also in regards to "near", the NSWFR applies 5 acre minimum guideline for Cat A firearms licences when "shooting on rural land". 5 acres is near enough to 2 hectares, so you could conceivably be authorised to shoot on a 200x100m block of land. Imagine a road down the long boundary - if you wanted to fire away from the direction of the road then it is very likely that you would find yourself within 25-30m of the road.

[Oldbloke]

The NSW Crime Act (93G) paraphrased, states: "Any person who fires a firearm or spear gun in or near a public place, or carries or fires a firearm or spear gun in a manner likely to injure, or endanger the safety of, himself or herself or any other person or any property, or with disregard for the safety


Sooo, I'm not up with NSW. But, it seems to me the bit in bold is the key bit.

[Lazarus]

If you have "nearby residences" housing non shooters, my guess is that at least one will have a "Karen" or a Green or some other oxygen thief who will be mortally offended.

[deye243]

I am on a property across the road from residences. I am looking to shoot foxes which frequent my property. I have several shooting positions which will allow me to safely shoot in the direction of a large hill which provides an effective backstop. This means absolutely no shooting in the direction of the road and other residences.

The NSW Crime Act (93G) paraphrased, states: "Any person who fires a firearm or spear gun in or near a public place, or carries or fires a firearm or spear gun in a manner likely to injure, or endanger the safety of, himself or herself or any other person or any property, or with disregard for the safety of himself or herself or any other person, is liable to imprisonment for 10 years.

The one part of this I'd like to understand is what is considered "near" in this context. I expect I would be shooting from positions which would be at least 30m from my road boundary and separated by a thick band of trees. I have carefully planned my shooting so that, as noted above, I would never be shooting towards the road and I would always be shooting towards a backstop which is a roughly 40-60m high hill which is unoccupied and not generally traversed by people.

What is the zoning of your property

[joneda1]

I am on a property across the road from residences. I am looking to shoot foxes which frequent my property. I have several shooting positions which will allow me to safely shoot in the direction of a large hill which provides an effective backstop. This means absolutely no shooting in the direction of the road and other residences.

The NSW Crime Act (93G) paraphrased, states: "Any person who fires a firearm or spear gun in or near a public place, or carries or fires a firearm or spear gun in a manner likely to injure, or endanger the safety of, himself or herself or any other person or any property, or with disregard for the safety of himself or herself or any other person, is liable to imprisonment for 10 years.

The one part of this I'd like to understand is what is considered "near" in this context. I expect I would be shooting from positions which would be at least 30m from my road boundary and separated by a thick band of trees. I have carefully planned my shooting so that, as noted above, I would never be shooting towards the road and I would always be shooting towards a backstop which is a roughly 40-60m high hill which is unoccupied and not generally traversed by people.

What is the zoning of your property

Zoned C2 so it comes under "rural" - my application wasn't questioned on zoning.

[joneda1]

The NSW Crime Act (93G) paraphrased, states: "Any person who fires a firearm or spear gun in or near a public place, or carries or fires a firearm or spear gun in a manner likely to injure, or endanger the safety of, himself or herself or any other person or any property, or with disregard for the safety


Sooo, I'm not up with NSW. But, it seems to me the bit in bold is the key bit.

I think it's the "or" that is important here, the law reads that you can't discharge in a public place, regardless of in a manner likely to injure, or endanger the safety of, himself or herself. It took me 3 or 4 reads to follow the logic.

See my edited original post, I think there are some other aspects of 93G to consider.

[joneda1]

If you have "nearby residences" housing non shooters, my guess is that at least one will have a "Karen" or a Green or some other oxygen thief who will be mortally offended.

And that is something I will have to address if it arises, hopefully a few photos of foxes and dead native animals and some subsonic ammo will suffice.

[bladeracer]

I think your very first step has to be discussing it with those people that are in the near vicinity. If they're fine with you shooting then that's a big step forward, if they're going to call the Police every time they see you with a rifle is it really going to be worth the headache? If it's just a noise issue you could stick to subsonics or even air-rifles.
You can always use a bow, but again, if somebody sees you and makes a claim they are fearful of you the cops are likely going to be showing up as well.

Your best bet is likely to be live-trapping, then taking them elsewhere to kill them.

I am on a property across the road from residences. I am looking to shoot foxes which frequent my property. I have several shooting positions which will allow me to safely shoot in the direction of a large hill which provides an effective backstop. This means absolutely no shooting in the direction of the road and other residences.

The NSW Crime Act (93G) paraphrased, states: "Any person who fires a firearm or spear gun in or near a public place, or carries or fires a firearm or spear gun in a manner likely to injure, or endanger the safety of, himself or herself or any other person or any property, or with disregard for the safety of himself or herself or any other person, is liable to imprisonment for 10 years.

The one part of this I'd like to understand is what is considered "near" in this context. I expect I would be shooting from positions which would be at least 30m from my road boundary and separated by a thick band of trees. I have carefully planned my shooting so that, as noted above, I would never be shooting towards the road and I would always be shooting towards a backstop which is a roughly 40-60m high hill which is unoccupied and not generally traversed by people.

To add a bit to this post, the Crimes Act also includes this part in relation to discharging a firearm:

" A person is not guilty of an offence under this section for possessing or doing anything referred to in subsection (1) if the person satisfies the court that he or she had a reasonable excuse for possessing it or doing it or possessed it or did it for a lawful purpose."

I guess this also raises the question of what is a lawful purpose. Is shooting on rural land within the conditions of your licence a lawful activity?

Also in regards to "near", the NSWFR applies 5 acre minimum guideline for Cat A firearms licences when "shooting on rural land". 5 acres is near enough to 2 hectares, so you could conceivably be authorised to shoot on a 200x100m block of land. Imagine a road down the long boundary - if you wanted to fire away from the direction of the road then it is very likely that you would find yourself within 25-30m of the road.

[joneda1]

I think your very first step has to be discussing it with those people that are in the near vicinity. If they're fine with you shooting then that's a big step forward, if they're going to call the Police every time they see you with a rifle is it really going to be worth the headache? If it's just a noise issue you could stick to subsonics or even air-rifles.
You can always use a bow, but again, if somebody sees you and makes a claim they are fearful of you the cops are likely going to be showing up as well.

Your best bet is likely to be live-trapping, then taking them elsewhere to kill them.

Long history of trapping with little success and we sometimes have 5 foxes out in the paddock at one time so I'm at the point where shooting is my only option. No help from Council and DPI won't bait anywhere near houses.

I'm meeting one neighbour soon to discuss things, maybe eve some cooperation, but there is a large grove of trees between my paddock and the road so I can be quite discreet.

[JohnV]

I think your very first step has to be discussing it with those people that are in the near vicinity. If they're fine with you shooting then that's a big step forward, if they're going to call the Police every time they see you with a rifle is it really going to be worth the headache? If it's just a noise issue you could stick to subsonics or even air-rifles.
You can always use a bow, but again, if somebody sees you and makes a claim they are fearful of you the cops are likely going to be showing up as well.

Your best bet is likely to be live-trapping, then taking them elsewhere to kill them.

I am on a property across the road from residences. I am looking to shoot foxes which frequent my property. I have several shooting positions which will allow me to safely shoot in the direction of a large hill which provides an effective backstop. This means absolutely no shooting in the direction of the road and other residences.

The NSW Crime Act (93G) paraphrased, states: "Any person who fires a firearm or spear gun in or near a public place, or carries or fires a firearm or spear gun in a manner likely to injure, or endanger the safety of, himself or herself or any other person or any property, or with disregard for the safety of himself or herself or any other person, is liable to imprisonment for 10 years.

The one part of this I'd like to understand is what is considered "near" in this context. I expect I would be shooting from positions which would be at least 30m from my road boundary and separated by a thick band of trees. I have carefully planned my shooting so that, as noted above, I would never be shooting towards the road and I would always be shooting towards a backstop which is a roughly 40-60m high hill which is unoccupied and not generally traversed by people.

To add a bit to this post, the Crimes Act also includes this part in relation to discharging a firearm:

" A person is not guilty of an offence under this section for possessing or doing anything referred to in subsection (1) if the person satisfies the court that he or she had a reasonable excuse for possessing it or doing it or possessed it or did it for a lawful purpose."

I guess this also raises the question of what is a lawful purpose. Is shooting on rural land within the conditions of your licence a lawful activity?

Also in regards to "near", the NSWFR applies 5 acre minimum guideline for Cat A firearms licences when "shooting on rural land". 5 acres is near enough to 2 hectares, so you could conceivably be authorised to shoot on a 200x100m block of land. Imagine a road down the long boundary - if you wanted to fire away from the direction of the road then it is very likely that you would find yourself within 25-30m of the road.

I agree with " blade ". It's not just the crimes act involved here it's also the firearms act and people have a right to not feel threatened and not be disturbed by gun fire . The Police don't need a crime to be committed for you to contravene the firearms act in that sense . If a Policeman considers you shooting where you are is dangerous when people have complained they have the power to remove your guns in NSW anyway . Now I am not just guessing I knew a guy at Coolabah that lived near the school and he shot at stuff in his yard . I visited one time when he was doing it and I advised him to stop as it would only take a teacher to complain saying they feared for the safety of the kids . He laughed and said it's rural mate we can do that . I did not ague . Two months latter I heard that Murray had been arrested and had lost all his guns . He asked me to write a letter of character reference for him to take to court which I was happy to do . He never contacted me again so I don't know how it all turned out and when I tried to ring him the number was disconnected . I found out from a friend that owned the local shop that he moved . So moral is under the firearms act the Police have a lot of discretionary power and if they consider what your are doing is dangerous or you unfit to hold a gun licence your in trouble .

[joneda1]

I think your very first step has to be discussing it with those people that are in the near vicinity. If they're fine with you shooting then that's a big step forward, if they're going to call the Police every time they see you with a rifle is it really going to be worth the headache? If it's just a noise issue you could stick to subsonics or even air-rifles.
You can always use a bow, but again, if somebody sees you and makes a claim they are fearful of you the cops are likely going to be showing up as well.

Your best bet is likely to be live-trapping, then taking them elsewhere to kill them.

I am on a property across the road from residences. I am looking to shoot foxes which frequent my property. I have several shooting positions which will allow me to safely shoot in the direction of a large hill which provides an effective backstop. This means absolutely no shooting in the direction of the road and other residences.

The NSW Crime Act (93G) paraphrased, states: "Any person who fires a firearm or spear gun in or near a public place, or carries or fires a firearm or spear gun in a manner likely to injure, or endanger the safety of, himself or herself or any other person or any property, or with disregard for the safety of himself or herself or any other person, is liable to imprisonment for 10 years.

The one part of this I'd like to understand is what is considered "near" in this context. I expect I would be shooting from positions which would be at least 30m from my road boundary and separated by a thick band of trees. I have carefully planned my shooting so that, as noted above, I would never be shooting towards the road and I would always be shooting towards a backstop which is a roughly 40-60m high hill which is unoccupied and not generally traversed by people.

To add a bit to this post, the Crimes Act also includes this part in relation to discharging a firearm:

" A person is not guilty of an offence under this section for possessing or doing anything referred to in subsection (1) if the person satisfies the court that he or she had a reasonable excuse for possessing it or doing it or possessed it or did it for a lawful purpose."

I guess this also raises the question of what is a lawful purpose. Is shooting on rural land within the conditions of your licence a lawful activity?

Also in regards to "near", the NSWFR applies 5 acre minimum guideline for Cat A firearms licences when "shooting on rural land". 5 acres is near enough to 2 hectares, so you could conceivably be authorised to shoot on a 200x100m block of land. Imagine a road down the long boundary - if you wanted to fire away from the direction of the road then it is very likely that you would find yourself within 25-30m of the road.

I agree with " blade ". It's not just the crimes act involved here it's also the firearms act and people have a right to not feel threatened and not be disturbed by gun fire . The Police don't need a crime to be committed for you to contravene the firearms act in that sense . If a Policeman considers you shooting where you are is dangerous when people have complained they have the power to remove your guns in NSW anyway . Now I am not just guessing I knew a guy at Coolabah that lived near the school and he shot at stuff in his yard . I visited one time when he was doing it and I advised him to stop as it would only take a teacher to complain saying they feared for the safety of the kids . He laughed and said it's rural mate we can do that . I did not ague . Two months latter I heard that Murray had been arrested and had lost all his guns . He asked me to write a letter of character reference for him to take to court which I was happy to do . He never contacted me again so I don't know how it all turned out and when I tried to ring him the number was disconnected . I found out from a friend that owned the local shop that he moved . So moral is under the firearms act the Police have a lot of discretionary power and if they consider what your are doing is dangerous or you unfit to hold a gun licence your in trouble .

All of this is part of the reason I'm trying to evaluate my situation carefully. I've done a shooting plan and submitted that with my licence application. I am confident that I can shoot such that there is a very low risk to surrounding properties. Of course, as you say, somebody can always complain and then it comes down to an assessment by the police.
I'm almost at the point now where I'm considering getting the local police to visit before I actually lay out money on a rifle. If they see and approve of my circumstances then I imagine that would go some way towards resolving any safety disputes.

[Larry]

The main issue as you say are the police and any other person in the vicinity. If anyone calls the police the police immediately consider it a dangerous situation and you will be pushing it up hill from there on. They will take your guns straight away and give you 28 days to lodge an appeal to take the issue to court.

[JohnV]

A couple of times in my life I have had small property owners ask me to shoot foxes and rabbits but I just say sorry because the neighbors are just too close . They did not want to lay baits or use traps as they have pets and certain stock animals in a small proximity . It's a difficult situation because a responsible shooter who is a good shot is less risk to anyone than crossing the highway but the average person does not feel that way . Your trying to do the right thing and that is commendable but don't be too disappointed if someone still complains or the Police say no because they don't want the responsibility of saying yes . At least with your approach the Police may be more sympathetic if that happens and just ask you to stop and take no further action . To be honest I would not like hearing gunshots near my home so my advice is keep the noise down as much as possible sub sonic ammo and some imagination .

[bladeracer]

Long history of trapping with little success and we sometimes have 5 foxes out in the paddock at one time so I'm at the point where shooting is my only option. No help from Council and DPI won't bait anywhere near houses.

I'm meeting one neighbour soon to discuss things, maybe even some cooperation, but there is a large grove of trees between my paddock and the road so I can be quite discreet.

I guess you could try baiting them to a pre-designated spot using roadkill, then set up a watch on that position and drop them right there, where you know you have an absolutely sound back stop. I think it would be difficult to make a claim that it is unsafe to deal with the situation in this way, but if your neighbours simply don't want you shooting it might end up that you're making that explanation to a court during an appeal to reinstate your licence. I just don't think it's worth the hassle.

You may have been unsuccessful trapping them in the past but if that's the most viable option available you'll just have to try different tricks and techniques until you are successful. You may be able to employ a professional shooter who can get a public place permit (or whatever they call it currently), but that will be a very expensive fix just for some foxes.

[Oldbloke]

Knock on the neighbour's doors.
Do a SOP to show them

[Fionn]

The one part of this I'd like to understand is what is considered "near" in this context.

"Near" is what a reasonable person would classify it as, given the circumstances.

The context of "near" has no relevance to what you want to do, as you would have a a reasonable excuse for doing it or you are doing it for a lawful purpose.

Consider that a rifle range is considered a public place in most cases.

Is shooting on rural land within the conditions of your licence a lawful activity

Yes

What you need to ensure is that you don't do it in a manner that is likely to injure, or endanger the safety of, himself or herself or any other person or any property, or with disregard for the safety of himself or herself or any other person.

This is the important bit.

Having a detailed risk assessment, informing the neighbours prior, informing the police prior even placing signs out informing people is a good risk reduction process.

[animalpest]

Sometimes we just can't or shouldn't do what we want to do with a firearm.

There are other options, such as using a professional trapper.

If you cannot afford that, then this reminds me of when a person was charged with cruelty after they botched up trying to put down their dog with a crossbow. Just because you don't have the alternatives (green dream, training, or a firearm) is no excuse

[joneda1]

The one part of this I'd like to understand is what is considered "near" in this context.

"Near" is what a reasonable person would classify it as, given the circumstances.

The context of "near" has no relevance to what you want to do, as you would have a a reasonable excuse for doing it or you are doing it for a lawful purpose.

Consider that a rifle range is considered a public place in most cases.

Is shooting on rural land within the conditions of your licence a lawful activity

Yes

What you need to ensure is that you don't do it in a manner that is likely to injure, or endanger the safety of, himself or herself or any other person or any property, or with disregard for the safety of himself or herself or any other person.

This is the important bit.

Having a detailed risk assessment, informing the neighbours prior, informing the police prior even placing signs out informing people is a good risk reduction process.

This is largely in line with the argument I had formed for myself. I agree that "lawful purpose", risk assessment and common sense should keep me on the right side of the law.

[joneda1]

Sometimes we just can't or shouldn't do what we want to do with a firearm.

There are other options, such as using a professional trapper.

If you cannot afford that, then this reminds me of when a person was charged with cruelty after they botched up trying to put down their dog with a crossbow. Just because you don't have the alternatives (green dream, training, or a firearm) is no excuse

I have made enquiries with professional trappers. It's expensive but not to the point I would retire poor. There are other issues of practicality to consider.

I have prior shooting experience, just several years ago, so I am not coming into this completely green.

[straightshooter]

Unfortunately in your introductory post you have already "shot yourself in the foot" as it were.
In order for you to shoot on your property, which I assume is 5 acres, you have to ensure your projectile will not cross a property boundary unless you have written permission from an adjoining property owner or lessee.
If anybody makes a complaint then you will have to convince an investigating officer of the reality of the previous sentence.
There are fairly cheap cat traps available on ebay and elsewhere. They work just as well on foxes provided the bait is sufficiently attractive for your area. Bear in mind you are adjacent to a residential area which provides a smorgasbord of food sources for foxes.
Now you might be able to preempt problems by personally approaching the senior officer at your local police station and explaining that you are trapping foxes on your property which is close to a residential area, that you propose to dispatch them safely and humanely with a 22, you are licenced and your property complies with the minimum requirements to do so, in order to forestall the investigation of any complaints from nearby residences.
In the event of an affirmative response keep a note of the time, date of the conversation and the officers name.

[bladeracer]

Unfortunately in your introductory post you have already "shot yourself in the foot" as it were.
In order for you to shoot on your property, which I assume is 5 acres, you have to ensure your projectile will not cross a property boundary unless you have written permission from an adjoining property owner or lessee.
If anybody makes a complaint then you will have to convince an investigating officer of the reality of the previous sentence.
There are fairly cheap cat traps available on ebay and elsewhere. They work just as well on foxes provided the bait is sufficiently attractive for your area. Bear in mind you are adjacent to a residential area which provides a smorgasbord of food sources for foxes.
Now you might be able to preempt problems by personally approaching the senior officer at your local police station and explaining that you are trapping foxes on your property which is close to a residential area, that you propose to dispatch them safely and humanely with a 22, you are licenced and your property complies with the minimum requirements to do so, in order to forestall the investigation of any complaints from nearby residences.
In the event of an affirmative response keep a note of the time, date of the conversation and the officers name.

The property doesn't have to be any specified size, it just has to be safe to shoot on.

[straightshooter]

The property doesn't have to be any specified size, it just has to be safe to shoot on.

You are now making presumptions with the intricacies of the NSW Firearms Act, the NSW Firearms Regulations and any internal guidelines within the NSW Police Service.
Lotsa luck bush lawyering.

[Oldbloke]

Knock on the neighbour's doors.
Do a SOP to show them

The NSW Crime Act (93G) paraphrased, states: "Any person who fires a firearm or spear gun in or near a public place, or carries or fires a firearm or spear gun in a manner likely to injure, or endanger the safety of, himself or herself or any other person or any property, or with disregard for the safety


Sooo, I'm not up with NSW. But, it seems to me the bit in bold is the key bit.

You haven't mentioned the size?

Anyway, as I said a few days ago. Why not just do a SOP and take a copy to the neighbour's. Explain the safety aspects and your plan. Perhaps include a sketch. Offer to text them before you do any shooting.

[bladeracer]

The property doesn't have to be any specified size, it just has to be safe to shoot on.

You are now making presumptions with the intricacies of the NSW Firearms Act, the NSW Firearms Regulations and any internal guidelines within the NSW Police Service.
Lotsa luck bush lawyering.

I'm not making any presumptions, that is the law.

[Lazarus]

The property doesn't have to be any specified size, it just has to be safe to shoot on.

You are now making presumptions with the intricacies of the NSW Firearms Act, the NSW Firearms Regulations and any internal guidelines within the NSW Police Service.
Lotsa luck bush lawyering.

I'm not making any presumptions, that is the law.

You are correct Blade, there is no legislated minimum.

https://sportingshooter.com.au/gun-law/ ... ooting-on/

[bladeracer]

You are correct Blade, there is no legislated minimum.

https://sportingshooter.com.au/gun-law/ ... ooting-on/

In NSW fairly recently they did introduce a document that offers five acres as a minimum guideline, but it's not law and is only listed in the licence application as far as I'm aware. Somebody sent it to me recently.

[Fionn]

This is largely in line with the argument I had formed for myself. I agree that "lawful purpose", risk assessment and common sense should keep me on the right side of the law.

That it should.

CCI 22LR Subsonic Segmented Hollow points would be a good choice for close range head shots, the advantage of them is they less prone to ricochet compared to a normal 22lr bullet.

[Fionn]

The property doesn't have to be any specified size, it just has to be safe to shoot on.

You are now making presumptions with the intricacies of the NSW Firearms Act, the NSW Firearms Regulations and any internal guidelines within the NSW Police Service.
Lotsa luck bush lawyering.

Credit where due, bladeracer and Oldbloke have been pretty spot on with there posts here.

The only person misunderstanding the law seems to be you.

[animalpest]

This is largely in line with the argument I had formed for myself. I agree that "lawful purpose", risk assessment and common sense should keep me on the right side of the law.

That it should.

CCI 22LR Subsonic Segmented Hollow points would be a good choice for close range head shots, the advantage of them is they less prone to ricochet compared to a normal 22lr bullet.

If you could hit a damn with your first shot. In my experience you would be lucky to hit a fox anywhere at 40m with your first shot using those.

[bladeracer]

If you could hit a damn with your first shot. In my experience you would be lucky to hit a fox anywhere at 40m with your first shot using those.

I'm sure you're aware of the value in finding out which ammunition your firearm prefers, clearly this one doesn't work in yours, making it a poor choice...for you. CCI Quiet shoots very well for me, about 30mm groups at 50m, but I've heard of others that get minute of angle at 50m with them - all firearms are different in their preferences.