Honest query on "Silencers"

[newsteadvic]

They have totally different functions, and I stand by my original statement that "silencers" as such are only effective with sub-sonic loads.

Here are some of our fellows with suppressed M4's:


The new F88 is also going to come with a suppressed option:

Not sure if it is in circulation as yet?

Lots of hunters in the UK and NZ (where they are legal) use suppressors with supersonic loads. There is still benefits with blast and noise although the supersonic projectile crack remains.

The NSW Game Council (before it was disbanded) did create this very useful report:
http://www.shootersandfishers.org.au/fi ... y-2011.pdf

[FuzzyM]

The military definitely use suppressed firearms. 45ACP is subsonic, there are also subsonic 9mm rounds. Our special forces used suppressed sten guns in Vietnam.

[Die Judicii]

Contrary to Tarnagulla's beliefs,, "Silencers/Suppressors DO work on ammo above the subsonic range.
A simple matter of its internal size, shape, and number of baffles.
Get that simple objective achieved and any ammo can be silenced.

A glaring example exists in USA, where some gun shops sell a fitting that is designed to screw onto the barrel, with an external thread that fits most screw on oil filters.
Simply purchase an oil filter, screw it onto the fitting, fire one shot, and BINGO guess what you've got.
The longer and bigger diameter the filter,, the better and more suppression it is capable of.

It aint rocket science.

[Grandpa_Halfdime]

I doubt they would be used by the military, if only because they only work with sub-sonic loads. If the cartridge launches a projectile with a muzzle velocity above the speed of sound, there is no benefit?

Two or three points.
First of all when used on supersonic ammo they tend to completely hide muzzle flash and make it much harder to figure out where the shooter is located.
Secondly, what makes you think that certain groups within the military don't use subsonic ammunition? To begin with the 1911 in .45 is a subsonic as issued, muzzle velocity 893fps, as are .380 (9mm Kurtz) and even the .38 special. There are plenty of things available.
Third, a silencer is more properly called a suppressor. It controls muzzle flash as well as reducing the sound signature. A short time ago at the range my son belongs to a man was shooting a .300 Winchester Magnum and the difference with / without suppressor was impressive. There was no muzzle flash and the rolling thunder sound typically associated with that round was gone. In addition the total noise was less with than without the suppressor.

Almost all special forces groups employ suppressed firearms from handguns to MP5s and other sub-machine guns and up to the .338 which is used for mid-range snipers.

Hope that clears up some misconceptions about Silencers

[AusTac]

Sas cats and other SF still kick around with suppressors in the sand pit, fire and movment in and around structures gets pretty unpleasant without a can

[WesleySnipes]

People, let us not confuse "silencers" with "muzzle brakes". They have totally different functions, and I stand by my original statement that "silencers" as such are only effective with sub-sonic loads. In the unfortunate case of Mr Winchester, the firearm involved was only of .22 rimfire calibre, and thus the report could well have been supressed, depending on the particular ammunition used.

No one brought up muzzle brakes, you did.

And as I said before, a suppressor is still effective at dampening the sound of the explosion made by the primer being hit and the charge being burnt, sub sonic or super sonic makes no difference.

The difference between super sonic and sub sonic is the sonic crack of the projectile as it leaves the barrel, and this obviously can't be suppressed. So while sub sonic loads don't have this issue as the projectile doesn't break the sound barrier, the sound of the charge 'exploding' can always be suppressed regardless of projectile speed.

And yes, even on high power rifles suppressors are useful in bringing the decibel level down to a more confortable position, allowing you to shoot without hearing protection. Even downrange the report of the rifle is much quieter and more difficult to locate the shooter for the reasons already listed.

[KWhorenet]

Google is your friend...

[ebr love]

I believe what Tarnagulla is saying is they don't silence/suppress the ballistic crack when using supersonic ammo making the sound reduction benefit arguable.

With supersonic ammunition the boom of the expanding gases will still be suppressed but the above is correct.

[Boss4b]

This is on the vic police website you can have them as long as you meets there requirements

Am I eligible to apply for a silencer?

Section 57 of the Firearms Act 1996 regulates the possession, carry or use of silencers in Victoria.

To be eligible for a silencer, you must be an employer or employee in one of the occupation fields listed below:

Government Department (i.e. DEPI or DEPI employee);
Licensed Firearms Dealer (includes dealers that only manufacture silencers);
Manufacturer of Silencers;
Professional Hunter;
Person who works as subcontractor for a professional hunting organisation;
Professional Vermin Control Business;
Theatrical Armourer;
Veterinarian;
Wildlife Shelter; and
Zoological Employer
Each application for a silencer permit will be considered on its merits and a determination will be made by the delegate of the Chief Commissioner of Police.

If you are currently employed in any of the above professions and you wish to make an application, please send an email to [email protected] requesting a silencer application form.

Please ensure when submitting an application that all relevant documentation is provided. The submission must be accompanied by a Bank Cheque or Money Order for the current fee made payable to 'Licensing & Regulation Division, Victoria Police'.

[Aster]

Theatrical Armourer;

What to say about that...

Shooters who's hearing would benefit from them are prohibited from having them but they're allowed for props?

Mmmm.

[Die Judicii]

Thanks for all the replies fellahs,,,,,,

As for my main question, it would appear that there is only ONE documented case of a silencer being used in Aus before they became illegal.

Cant help wondering if Mr Winchester had NOT been a member of the police force,,,,, would they be illegal today ???

[Baronvonrort]

Thanks for all the replies fellahs,,,,,,

As for my main question, it would appear that there is only ONE documented case of a silencer being used in Aus before they became illegal.

Cant help wondering if Mr Winchester had NOT been a member of the police force,,,,, would they be illegal today ???

Having wasted about 2 hours of my life reading about that case the forensic evidence with the silencer was crucial for a conviction, they never recovered the 10/22 he used,i doubt they would have convicted him without the silencer.

I see in Vic they allow them for Vets which they don't in NSW last time I checked.

[valkyrie]

Sorry to have a go at anyone but silencer is a word that is made up in relation to suppressors and helps the antis convince everyone that anything with a suppressor is so quiet someone in the next room can get clocked and you wont hear it. Step 1 to them being more readily available is to stop using an incorrect term for them. Btw a suppressor is any device that reduces the noise of the firearm to a safe level (less than 100db) and thats still pretty damn loud for most of them unless you are using subs and a high quality suppressor

[Baronvonrort]

Sorry to have a go at anyone but silencer is a word that is made up in relation to suppressors and helps the antis convince everyone that anything with a suppressor is so quiet someone in the next room can get clocked and you wont hear it. Step 1 to them being more readily available is to stop using an incorrect term for them.

I agree 100%

We should call them sound moderators.

In the politically correct world we do not hunt we eradicate introduced feral pests.

[1290]

In the politically correct world we do not hunt we eradicate introduced feral pests.

'harvest'
Yes, we eat some of the species we shoot.... but that word really annoys me.

You harvest a crop, you SHOOT animals...maybe you'll eat it too.

But I hate even more, the word that has quietly snuck into every referencing statement.... FISHER.

[Brute]

I just call them hearing protection

[cuvy]

They're legal and unregulated in New Zealand - that would be an interesting place to look for crime stats involving their usage.

[Chronos]

Guys in the thread title the word "silencers" is in inverted commas, the irony of the use of the term is implied.

Chronos

[Morro]

They have totally different functions, and I stand by my original statement that "silencers" as such are only effective with sub-sonic loads.

I understand the point your trying to make here but thats not entirely correct. The H&K MP5 SD6 for example has an integral silencer that fully encases the perforated barrel. If u fired subsonic ammo in it, the round will not exit the barrel because of the gas bleed off, HV ammo all the way. And its super quiet

[KWhorenet]

I think I heard my first 5 moderated shots today while in my local patch of scrub near a water hole. Either very very light charged rounds with no real crack at all, or as my gut feel suggested moderated something. I use subs in 22lr often and they still crack; this was nothing like it. Very dull muffled sound but clearly shots fired.

I got to within 200 yards away at one stage. Tried calling out to make contact but silence and nil movement so I got out of there.

Time to move a couple of TC's

[Atter]

They're legal and unregulated in New Zealand - that would be an interesting place to look for crime stats involving their usage.

It's covered under OH&S there.

(Or so I read here anyway)

[on_one_wheel]

OH&S , thats a good idea, perhaps Australia can adopt such a thing as OH&S and we can play with suspressors.

I looking forward to our class action lawsuit against the Australian government for not allowing us to adequately protect ourselvs or our shooting buddies against such high levels of noise that basic hearing protection is unable to fully protect us against.

Ppe should be considered the last line of defence, not the only.

[Prettybird]

I looking forward to our class action lawsuit against the Australian government for not allowing us to adequately protect ourselvs or our shooting buddies against such high levels of noise that basic hearing protection is unable to fully protect us against.

Didn't a group of defence force guys try that in recent years?

(Can't remember if I'm thinking of Australia or the US maybe.)

[Carter]

Pretty sure in the US you can't sue the military for any reason. Can't even start proceeding to see if you have a valid case, it's just not allowed.

[Title_II]

Yup, all correct on silencers (especially military use).

I have a 5.56 can. Since I am not trying to disguise my location like a parachuting ninja, it's probably the worst $800 I ever spent (it's full auto rated so a little pricier). It turns the 5.56 sound into a .22 or .22 magnum and just makes the gun dirtier faster.

I have a 9mm can that is great. I use it with a 9mm SMG and subsonic ammo and the thing is downright evil. I know there is some report but I don't hear it. Just that big telescoping bolt banging around and the bullets slapping into whatever I am shooting at.

Military still does use 9mm SMG/handgun subsonic from time to time and of course there is .300 Black (subsonic) which I have been told they have used as well. Obviously this is uncommon and limited to all the special people.

[sha]

The suppressor makes the gun dirtier?

Never heard that before. Does it stop more fouling escaping or something?

[bigfellascott]

OH&S , thats a good idea, perhaps Australia can adopt such a thing as OH&S and we can play with suspressors.

I looking forward to our class action lawsuit against the Australian government for not allowing us to adequately protect ourselvs or our shooting buddies against such high levels of noise that basic hearing protection is unable to fully protect us against.

Ppe should be considered the last line of defence, not the only.

Ah you don't want more regulations controlling ya life mate, we want less - who cares about "Silencers/Moderators/Sound Suppressors/Mufflers" or whatever you call em, they are overrated to some degree - never seen a great advantage in using em for hunting situations, the animals still heard the shot and would generally run or scatter anyway. Used them a few times as a kid hunting bunnies and goats

And as for Centrefires - well you can still well and truly hear them and again so can the animals - only real advantage to using them is to help reduce ones chances of hearing damage.

[Title_II]

The suppressor makes the gun dirtier?

Never heard that before. Does it stop more fouling escaping or something?

Oh, oh yes. I've noticed it most with ARs/M16s (which are DI operated) and open bolt blowback guns. Now, those are the guns I have suppressed the most, but it seems to make sense to me. With an AR, whatever doesn't get out of the barrel quick enough goes back in the receiver. The weapons cycle faster as well. With open bolt blowback, I assume that the suppressor holds an extremely large volume of combustion products (which is how it works) compared to what a 9mm or .45 caliber tube would be. I'm assuming it is still pressurized to some extent when the casing extracts and the gas runs back. Matter of fact, in both types of weapons you often get gas in the face coming out of the receiver when shooting suppressed. I've never had it with the AR but many people complain about it.

In the US, I would say a very high percentage of AR piston operated rifles are bought by silencer owners for these exact reasons. It's a common conversation in the US. "Why do you want a piston?" "Because I plan to use a can."

The effect with short recoil operation (Glock, 1911, etc.) and piston guns seems less.

And as for Centrefires - well you can still well and truly hear them and again so can the animals - only real advantage to using them is to help reduce ones chances of hearing damage.

Depends what you mean by centerfires. I could fire subsonic 9mm or .45 out of an SMG in the bedroom next to yours and you probably wouldn't wake up. If you did, you wouldn't think you heard a 30 gunshots. For .300 Black, it can be almost as quiet as .22 out of an AR. I shoot .22 suppressed (CCI Standard Velocity which is subsonic) full auto out of an M16 and you you were standing next to me you would not know if I fired a single shot. The first time I fired it I was not sure the gun went off. The loudest noise is the hammer cocking after the shot, not even the bolt. Which happens to be louder in auto than semi for some reason. The first time I thought I just heard the hammer drop on an empty chamber.

They are indeed very cool. And, yes, the usefulness for normal people peters off with supersonic rifle ammo.

[bigfellascott]

The suppressor makes the gun dirtier?

Never heard that before. Does it stop more fouling escaping or something?

Oh, oh yes. I've noticed it most with ARs/M16s (which are DI operated) and open bolt blowback guns. Now, those are the guns I have suppressed the most, but it seems to make sense to me. With an AR, whatever doesn't get out of the barrel quick enough goes back in the receiver. The weapons cycle faster as well. With open bolt blowback, I assume that the suppressor holds an extremely large volume of combustion products (which is how it works) compared to what a 9mm or .45 caliber tube would be. I'm assuming it is still pressurized to some extent when the casing extracts and the gas runs back. Matter of fact, in both types of weapons you often get gas in the face coming out of the receiver when shooting suppressed. I've never had it with the AR but many people complain about it.

In the US, I would say a very high percentage of AR piston operated rifles are bought by silencer owners for these exact reasons. It's a common conversation in the US. "Why do you want a piston?" "Because I plan to use a can."

The effect with short recoil operation (Glock, 1911, etc.) and piston guns seems less.

And as for Centrefires - well you can still well and truly hear them and again so can the animals - only real advantage to using them is to help reduce ones chances of hearing damage.

Depends what you mean by centerfires. I could fire subsonic 9mm or .45 out of an SMG in the bedroom next to yours and you probably wouldn't wake up. If you did, you wouldn't think you heard a 30 gunshots. For .300 Black, it can be almost as quiet as .22 out of an AR. I shoot .22 suppressed (CCI Standard Velocity which is subsonic) full auto out of an M16 and you you were standing next to me you would not know if I fired a single shot. The first time I fired it I was not sure the gun went off. The loudest noise is the hammer cocking after the shot, not even the bolt. Which happens to be louder in auto than semi for some reason. The first time I thought I just heard the hammer drop on an empty chamber.

They are indeed very cool. And, yes, the usefulness for normal people peters off with supersonic rifle ammo.

I hear what your saying mate but sadly most of your info is irrelevant to us here as we don't have access to semi's and autos as such, no firearms here with 30rd mag etc.

We are pretty much stuck with bolt action rifles, levers and pump action rimfires sadly hence my reply earlier.

[Title_II]

Yeah, I know. We have a few places almost like that in the States as well.